Can this qualify as a challenge?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Capt. Nemo and Fellow Forumers,

PC, I hope I've misunderstood something along the way in this thread, but I'm under the impression that you're about to take a rather substantial vacation, both concerning costs and time, to see the challenge answered by this Philippine channeller.
I'm afraid this is not going to happen, at least not while you're present.

I've seen discussions about possible protocols and the channeller's/spirits potential reaction to them, and, while some suggestions are certainly good enough to be part of a final protocol, I'm sure that several steps of the challenge-process have been overlooked.
As soon as the application has been completed and mailed, including notarization and protocol-suggestion, it has to be accepted by JREF. Once it is accepted, the negotiations for the final protocol can begin. Previous postings show that this can take a rather long time.
While the protocol is being thrashed out, JREF will usually also begin the process of finding a local sceptic-organisation or other trusted individual(s) to act as tester(s). This has also proven to take its share of time.
As you can see, and unless I'm completely mistaken, the likelyhood of you being able to witness this test in the one week you're in the Philippines is rather low, especially considering that the channeller has yet to understand the nature of the challenge and complete the application. You may want to rethink your vacation-plans and move it a bit into the future.

If, however, your intentions with the trip is primarily to have a nice vacation of sun, sand, surf and a spirit-guiding session, I wish you the very best.

My forthcoming journey to the Philippines will not be a vacation. The ten-day trip will be more like a business trip, plus, of course, the “spirit-guiding sessions” with Ama.

My father said to me (he is skeptical about the spirit and about God) that he hopes this Challenge will settle the question of the existence of spirits, who the spirit is and what the spirit can do once and for all for the benefit of everyone.

The test, even the preliminary one, will most likely not happen while I will be in the Philippines during the Holy Week. But I will try to let Mrs. Alvaran understand the Challenge clearly. Hopefully, the tests are conducted as soon as possible.

When the preliminary test is conducted, I hope to be present even though I have to travel to the Philippines again. And after passing the preliminary test, the formal test, where I hope to be present as well even if it entails that I have to travel again.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Moochie]

You're probably not aware of this, but you aren't that different from most woos. Dismissing things out of hand, unable to get into a proper discussion, very aggressive stance, but ultimately insecure. Face it, you're a believer. Besides, this is a forum where woos present their claims. If they do it in a civil and respectful manner, as PC has done so far, there's no need to bash them constantly, is there?

Oh chill, will you?

If these dingbats had anything to prove it would have been done by now. After all, how long has this sheila been operating? Since the 80s?

Get real.

M.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Wombatwal and Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

What worries me about this man is that he is going to a lot of time and expense to substantiate something that will probably fail.
Is the JREF encouraging him in his possible misguided beliefs.
Can he afford this trip or the time off work.
If he is well off, no worries, but if he is flying by the seat of his pants financially, I feel sorry for him.

I have similar worries.

I feel very sorry for PC. He is about to waste a significant amount of time and a large amount of money chasing this goal. I believe that he understands only very poorly how much work will be involved in preparing for the JREF test. And I believe that this woman (knowing herself that she is a fraud) will engage him in an endless and fruitless run-around. She will agree, she will back out, she will ask to change the protocol, she will refuse to travel any distance, she will insist on concessions at the last minute - and she will never be tested. PC's self-delusion is about to lead him down a very unfortunate path.

However, I do not feel in any way guilty. At no point did anyone on this board do anything other than disuade him from his beliefs. We pointed out how silly his claims were. We pointed out how he was bending himself in knots attempting to retcon world events to ridiculously vague predictions. We pointed out how illogical his thoughts on the subject were.

Still, he persisted. He is a person who needs proof in order to have faith. He is so unsure and timid about his beliefs that he has to have miraculous signs in order to allow him to commit to his god. No such signs actually occurring, he is content to literally make them up out of whole cloth. He is willing to ignore glaring inconsistencies.

He chose the route he is taking. He chose it after many people tried to convince him otherwise. Maybe spending a year and thousands of dollars just to get nowhere is exactly what he needs to realize that faith comes from within and not from without.

I understand that to me, this Challenge is costly both financially and time-wise. But I know and firmly believe that Mrs. Alvaran is not a fraud. I believe that she is not an impostor or an impersonator. Can a woman talk with a male voice? How come that the prophecies of Ama are mostly, if not all, being fulfilled?

True, as Loss Leader analyzed my personality, "He is a person who needs proof in order to have faith." That is why it took me eleven years (1983-1994) before I accepted that the spirit we talk to is none other than Jesus Christ. You may check the "coincidences" in my life in the following websites:
1. @www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/signs.htm
2. @www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/jesus888.htm
3. @www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/post049.htm

If the spirit passes the Challenge, I would like to ask you: Will you believe in spirits? Will you believe that that spirit is Jesus Christ? Will you believe in God? Will you believe that Jesus Christ is God? If you do, how soon will you change?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Moochie]

By this logic, by providing the challenge in the first place, James Randi is not just an "enabler," but THE "enabler." As are the people who handle the official challenge preparation, setup, and operation.



Any and all quotation marks are purely coincidental.

THE enabler, indeed. He has the money. The three or four dolts I continually come across in these forums seem to be infested with the "moron virus" that appears to infect their grey matter something awful, in that they actually think that the likes of PC and $cientologist "Fred Carr" are here to do anything other than spread their idiocy as much as they can before being called out.

Please!

M.

 

[Cuddles]

Can a woman talk with a male voice?

Yes.

How come that the prophecies of Ama are mostly, if not all, being fulfilled?

You have quite clearly been shown that they aren't.

If the spirit passes the Challenge, I would like to ask you: Will you believe in spirits?

I, and I believe most people here, will believe that there is evidence that a person can somehow find out what is hidden in boxes using a previously unknown mechanism. The existence of spirits is one possible hypothesis, but even if the challenge is passed it does not seem one of the more likely ones.

Will you believe that that spirit is Jesus Christ?

No. Reading the contents of boxes is not somehing Jesus was ever advertised as doing, and is not something that would require the existence of spirits, let alone divine ones.

Will you believe in God?

No. See above.

Will you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

No. Since this challenge can determine nothing about the existence of either god or Jesus it certainly will not say anything about whether they are the same person.

If you do, how soon will you change?

I will change my views as soon as there is evidence that they should be changed. I believe most people on this forum would do the same.

The problem here is that you are labouring under the same misundertanding as many other people who have applied for the challenge. Testing to see if someone can do what they claim does not say anything about the method used to do it. In this case, a test to see if someone can see what is inside a box does nothing other than show if a person can see what is inside a box. It could be remote viewing, telepathy, precognition, mediums, divine spirits and many other things. Even if you manage to prove that your medium has paranormal abilities, you will have proved nothing with regards to your religious beliefs.

 

[Burner]

Oh chill, will you?

If these dingbats had anything to prove it would have been done by now. After all, how long has this sheila been operating? Since the 80s?

Get real.

M.

For your information, there's about 0.000001% of people out there who have heard of the challenge or James Randi. If you hold a fruit stand for 30 years, does that mean everyone in the world will have heard of you? And no, I don't think that PC will prove a damned thing, but it's been interesting to see how religios people work, especially since he's been willing to participate in a meaningful discussion, unlike yourself.

 

[Burner]

Let us all try to give the E in JREF a chance to become a reality. Experience provides certain patterns - believers vs. evidence - but we would not want to rule out changes to said patterns per se, would we?

Wouldn't it be amazing if there was proof for a "spirit"?

Indeed it would. But frankly, I'm more interested in seeing PC's reactions and how he'll handle the situation. We might have a unique opportunity to spectate a religious man's believes being challenged. If PC has the slightest bit of rationality left in him, it might turn interesting.

 

[petre]

For your information, there's about 0.000001% of people out there who have heard of the challenge or James Randi.

I'm aware you weren't really supplying a researched statistic, but if that were true then only about 67 people have heard of the challenge or James Randi

 

[Thabiguy]

If the spirit passes the Challenge, I would like to ask you: Will you believe in spirits?

As others have said, if the woman passes the challenge, it won't be a proof of the existence of spirits. Strictly speaking, it will be evidence for an unexplained phenomenon. - However, I don't want to downplay the significance of this revolutionary event. It will be very strong evidence for the existence of paranormal phenomena, definitely stronger than anything we have today. Passing the challenge is an extraordinary accomplishment - no matter if done through an extraordinary ability or through extraordinary deception. The woman will have done something that nobody else could, and I will want to listen to her explanation for it. While not a proof of spirits per se, passing the challenge will certainly put this possibility on the table.

Will you believe that that spirit is Jesus Christ? Will you believe in God? Will you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

If the woman wins the challenge, it will only be a first step. She will instantly become famous and get devoted media attention. She will certainly be given many more opportunities to demonstrate her abilities (in this case, her alleged connection with the spirit). If she can repeatedly and reliably produce extraordinary evidence for her claims, for example by making very specific predictions of natural disasters, then I will find her paranormal abilities proven to the best of our knowledge.

At that point, she will be the sole authority in the world on the miracles she will have demonstrated. On these grounds, I will have to trust her expert opinion and assume that whatever plausible explanation she offers is right. Until someone else can do the same miracles and explain them differently, her opinion will be the best human knowledge on the subject. If she says she does it through a spirit of Jesus Christ, I will believe her.

Unfortunately, as wonderful as that sounds, the likelihood of this course of events is comparable to the chance that alien ships will start landing tomorrow.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Cuddles and Fellow Forumers,

Can a woman talk with a male voice?

Yes.

How come that the prophecies of Ama are mostly, if not all, being fulfilled?

You have quite clearly been shown that they aren't.

If the spirit passes the Challenge, I would like to ask you: Will you believe in spirits?

I, and I believe most people here, will believe that there is evidence that a person can somehow find out what is hidden in boxes using a previously unknown mechanism. The existence of spirits is one possible hypothesis, but even if the challenge is passed it does not seem one of the more likely ones.

Will you believe that that spirit is Jesus Christ?

No. Reading the contents of boxes is not somehing Jesus was ever advertised as doing, and is not something that would require the existence of spirits, let alone divine ones.

Will you believe in God?

No. See above.

Will you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

No. Since this challenge can determine nothing about the existence of either god or Jesus it certainly will not say anything about whether they are the same person.

If you do, how soon will you change?

I will change my views as soon as there is evidence that they should be changed. I believe most people on this forum would do the same.

The problem here is that you are labouring under the same misundertanding as many other people who have applied for the challenge. Testing to see if someone can do what they claim does not say anything about the method used to do it. In this case, a test to see if someone can see what is inside a box does nothing other than show if a person can see what is inside a box. It could be remote viewing, telepathy, precognition, mediums, divine spirits and many other things. Even if you manage to prove that your medium has paranormal abilities, you will have proved nothing with regards to your religious beliefs.

What do you like the spirit do to prove that He is Jesus Christ, other than identifying what are inside sealed boxes? Raise a person from the dead? Or kill a certain group of people in an instant like what God did to the Egyptians that led to the liberation of the Israelites from more than 400 years of bondage in Egypt (called Exodus)?

If you think that there is a god (an assumption), what do you expect him to do to prove that he is such a god? How about if He is the true God, what proofs do you want as evidences which are verifiable and objective?

I am raising these questions because I would like to know what will change your beliefs to know the truth. Time is running fast for death may suddenly overcome us. Then that will really be late, too late.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Burner]

What do you like the spirit do to prove that He is Jesus Christ, other than identifying what are inside sealed boxes? Raise a person from the dead? Or kill a certain group of people in an instant like what God did to the Egyptians that led to the liberation of the Israelites from more than 400 years of bondage in Egypt (called Exodus)?

Now this raises some interesting questions. Suppose the protocol is established which includes killing of a certain group of people by Jesus. Let's say Sylvia Browne, John Edwards and Uri Geller get picked on the list and come test day, sky opens and lightning strikes them where they stand, turning them into ashes instantly. So here's the question: Would JREF be eligible for murder or would they be pardoned since it was Gods work?

 

[Thabiguy]

John Edwards sure has one hell of a bad luck; first he loses in the election and then this...

 

[wombatwal]

Dear Cuddles and Fellow Forumers,

If you think that there is a god (an assumption), what do you expect him to do to prove that he is such a god? How about if He is the true God, what proofs do you want as evidences which are verifiable and objective?

I am raising these questions because I would like to know what will change your beliefs to know the truth. Time is running fast for death may suddenly overcome us. Then that will really be late, too late.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Dear P.C.
You sound like a likable intelligent man, so I wish you well in your quest.
But obviously intelligence is no antidote for blind faith, which I think you have.
Change my beliefs?
Well for a start I have no beliefs.
Why would I want to go for your religion anyway, why not any of the Gods in Hinduism, the Muslim or Jewish form of your God, Thor the God of thunder to some, the Pagan gods, I could go on page after page on all of the Gods and religions in this world.
They all believe they have the right God to pray to. Are you and people of your ilk right and everyone else is wrong.
Please try and use some logic.

 

[Moochie]

I'm aware you weren't really supplying a researched statistic, but if that were true then only about 67 people have heard of the challenge or James Randi

M.

 

[Moochie]

What do you like the spirit do to prove that He is Jesus Christ, other than identifying what are inside sealed boxes?

Make the goddam cable company let me choose and pay for only those channels I want to watch.


M.

 

[Loss Leader]

I've already answered this question of what a successful test would do to my beliefs and I've answered it in this very thread. I'll repreat myself:

A successful test would lead me to believe that there is a way to defy the laws of physics and to know information without using any energy to learn it. This would cause me to believe in God because only a universe with a God could (in my opinion) grant itself exceptions to physical laws. However, it would not cause me to believe in Jesus, the Bible, or even that God "did" the work in the test - only that he allowed the work to go forward.

I doubt that there is anything that could ever cause me to believe in the christian religion. Frankly, I don't want to worship a God who judges me based on whether I worship him.

 

[Dan O.]

Please don't do anything that will help any person anywhere in the world know those numbers before the spirit performs the test.

If PC knows the numbers before the reading, it won't be a double blind test. Why don't we generate a random number that nobody will know until after the spirit has reveled what the number is?

Each interested person could generates their own 10 digit number and posts only a cryptographic hash of their number. After the spirit's result is posted, each person that posted a hash would post thier numbers. All the committed numbers would be added together (without carry) to generate the target number. The target number would then be compared with the number reveled by the spirit.

 

[Cuddles]

Dear Cuddles and Fellow Forumers,What do you like the spirit do to prove that He is Jesus Christ, other than identifying what are inside sealed boxes? Raise a person from the dead? Or kill a certain group of people in an instant like what God did to the Egyptians that led to the liberation of the Israelites from more than 400 years of bondage in Egypt (called Exodus)?

If you think that there is a god (an assumption), what do you expect him to do to prove that he is such a god? How about if He is the true God, what proofs do you want as evidences which are verifiable and objective?

I am raising these questions because I would like to know what will change your beliefs to know the truth. Time is running fast for death may suddenly overcome us. Then that will really be late, too late.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Well to honest, that's your problem. I don't believe in your god, so I have no idea what it could do to convince me it exists. You are the one that is trying to convince people that there is a god and that it is in fact the one you, and not billions of others, believe in, therefore it is up to you to prove it. As I have already said this current test, while interesting if successful, says nothing about the method by which it works. There are plenty of other explanations possible, most of which are more plausible than a god. If you wish to prove that your god exists you have to come up with something that could only be explained by that god and nothing else, and you also have to explain why it can't be explained by anything else.

 

[Klaymore]

Make the goddam cable company let me choose and pay for only those channels I want to watch.
M.

If PC could do that, I would not only believe in the power of Jesus Christ, I would F[make sweet love to]K a SNAKE!

 

[Moochie]

If PC could do that, I would not only believe in the power of Jesus Christ, I would F[make sweet love to]K a SNAKE!

Yep. This is Real World stuff. Let's see what PC can contribute.

M.