Zionism.

[Nero]

It's important to make distinctions here...

"Jewish state" does not mean "Judaist" state. "Jew" is not a religious title, it is an ethnic one. Most Jews happen to follow the religion of Judaism, but not all of them.

Although the practical reality is Judaism will have significant influence in a Jewish state as per Zionism, there is nothing in Zionism that specifically requires a religious element. An all-Jewish secular state, or (just going to extremes) an all-Jewish Hindu state would still be Zionist.

-Gumboot

Very true, I can only offer an anecdote but here goes anyway:

I was over in Israel last year, visiting the development centre of one of our software suppliers. Lunch time conversation with some of my Israeli colleagues, I was very surprised to hear one say “We seem to have quite a lot of Jews on this project”. I made a daft quip along the lines “well we are in Israel”. There most certainly is a distinction between ethnic Jews and religious Jews, the majority of the people a came across considered themselves to be ethnically Jewish rather than religiously Jewish.

* - And no I did not perform a scientifically valid poll, with appropriate sample sizes, as I said just an anecdote.

 

[a_unique_person]

You know what's really weird?

A lot of noise is made about Israel being an all-Jewish state and the implications of a nation ruled by religion.

What is seldom pointed out is that "Jew" is not a religion, Israel is not a religious or all-Jewish state, and that Islam is infact unique in the entire world for being the ONLY religion that has not one, but MANY states that are EXCLUSIVELY Islamic.

It's fascinating.

(Okay, I'm ignoring Vatican City, I don't really consider it a country).

-Gumboot

No, it's never claimed to be an all Jewish state, nor never claimed it ever intended to be, but the demographics of who makes up the majority is never far from the minds of those who intend to make it a Jewish state, in the sense that it is a country for Jews primarily, with the star of David as it's flag, no domestic flights on the Sabbath.. It's an interesting balancing act. For example, if a single state was formed now based on the borders that Israel controls, including Gaza and the West Bank, Arabs would probably be a very slight majority. Hence part of Sharon's action of pulling out of Gaza.

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

EDIT: Double post during editing

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

EDIT: No, this is rather the wrong place for this discussion...

 

[The Silver Shadow]

The difference between perceptions of Zionism here and Zionism in the Middle East is that over here, it's perceived as taking over the world, whereas in the Middle East and in Israel, it's perceived as the establishment of a Jewish state and nothing more. What the Arab states want is to simply keep the partition that was originally in when Israel was formed in 1948. That was said at the anti-Zionism conference where our good friend Mahmoud said that Israel should be wiped off the map...

 

[a_unique_person]

I wouldn't say it is perceived in the West as being for the purpose of taking over the world, I small minority of nutters see it that way, the majority don't. Take the ratio of those who do and those who don't on this forum for example.

 

[Cleon]

That's a VERY complicated subject. I'm not sure it's appropriate for this forum though.

"Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. Formally organized in the late 19th century, the movement was successful in establishing the State of Israel in 1948, as the world's first and only modern Jewish State. It continues primarily as support for the state and government of Israel and its continuing status as a homeland for the Jewish people. Described as a "diaspora nationalism", its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I would quibble with that definition--it's not really about a "homeland." Israel/Palestine/Canaan/Whateverthehellyouwanttocallit is the homeland of the Jewish people; it's the birthplace of our religion, our culture, and our ethnicity. You don't need a movement for that; it's just the facts of history.

Summarizing it as simply "Jewish nationalism" isn't really correct, either; it's a current of Jewish nationalism, but there have been other Jewish nationalist currents. The Jewish Labor Bund, for example, was fiercely anti-Zionist.

Zionism is about creating/supporting a Jewish nation-state in Palestine. Not necessarily "all-Jewish," like the OP suggests, but one in which Jews hold political power and enjoy a special status.

 

[William Rea]

It's important to make distinctions here...

"Jewish state" does not mean "Judaist" state. "Jew" is not a religious title, it is an ethnic one. Most Jews happen to follow the religion of Judaism, but not all of them.

Although the practical reality is Judaism will have significant influence in a Jewish state as per Zionism, there is nothing in Zionism that specifically requires a religious element. An all-Jewish secular state, or (just going to extremes) an all-Jewish Hindu state would still be Zionist.

-Gumboot

Do you mean that "Jew" is a race or do you really mean an ethnicity?

 

[William Rea]

It's a political issue. Zionism was never a conspiracy, they were quite open about their intentions all along. (The name is a dead give away.)

Zionism has ALWAYS been a conspiracy whether the intentions were obvious from the name or not.

 

[William Rea]

It is true according to who? Take a look at the countries around Israel and then tell me Israels democracy is a failure.

Last time I looked there were arabs in Israels Parliament. How many jews are in governments in the arab world?

Whether you like it or not, Israel is the only truely transparent democracy in the middle east. Hopefully it wont stay the only one for ever!

Mailman

How many examples would you like? I'll kick off with Iran's Jewish MP, Maurice Mohtamed.

 

[hgc]

How many examples would you like? I'll kick off with Iran's Jewish MP, Maurice Mohtamed.

You can start off by explaining when Iran became an Arab state.

 

[Merko]

I'm anti-Zionist because I consider Zionism, in the commonly understood meaning of that concept, to be racist. I have met people strongly considering themselves to be Zionists, who have credibly distanced themselves from such racist ideas, and I have no problem with 'their Zionism', but though I wish them luck in re-defining Zionist ideology I think they have a long way to go.

I'm definitely not anti-Israel.

I usually don't define myself as anti-Zionist because I don't think the concept of Zionism is well known enough. Additionally there are quite a lot of antisemites posing as anti-Zionists, which makes "anti-Zionism" a bit of a warning flag word.

 

[Loss Leader]

I think one thing that interferes with most Americans understanding the concept of Zionism is that their situation is so different from that of the world's Jews. Imagine if you were to be asked to come up with a list of nations with a christian majority. It would be a long list and it would include the US. Matters that are important to christians are important to the US government: Christmas is a national holiday, as is Easter; in many towns blue laws prohibit businesses operating on Sunday; many high school football teams still pray to Jesus before games; there is a national Christmas Tree on the lawn of the White House; the TV show Friends celebrated Christmas even though three of the six characters were Jewish. It all seems very normal and natural. One's religion is reflected in one's society as a whole.

And there are Muslim countries where the same is true for Muslims. Sure, those countries are boring but Eid is a national holiday and huge public bells ring to call people to prayer.

Heck, there are even Animist countries and Shintoist countries and whatever the hell they are in China.

Can you imagine is there were no country in the world where Christians were more than 2% of the population? Can you imagine a world where you stay home on December 25 and everyone else is at work? A world where you have to take a vacation day to celebrate Easter (because Sunday would just be a regular work day)?

When you discuss Zionism, try to consider the fact that we Jews (pre 1948) were a dismally small minority in absolutely every country in the world. Nowhere on the planet was Yom Kippur a national holiday. Nowhere on the planet were the rules of kashrut enforced by the government.



[N.B. I don't want to hear how we stole the land from the Palastinians. Anyone who knows anything about anything knows that British imperialism created Palestine out of nothing whatsoever.]

 

[Cleon]

When you discuss Zionism, try to consider the fact that we Jews (pre 1948) were a dismally small minority in absolutely every country in the world. Nowhere on the planet was Yom Kippur a national holiday. Nowhere on the planet were the rules of kashrut enforced by the government.

And you think this is a good thing...Why, exactly?

I don't want any government enforcing religious laws. Any religious laws. I don't want to be told I can't buy beer on Sundays, I don't want my diet mandated, I have no desire for football teams to say "shehechianu" before a game, and I sure as hell don't want some schmuck fining me for eating bread on Passover.

[N.B. I don't want to hear how we stole the land from the Palastinians. Anyone who knows anything about anything knows that British imperialism created Palestine out of nothing whatsoever.]

Out of nothing whatsoever? So until the Brits came in, the area historically called "Palestine" was just a huge, empty void?



Oh, and incidentally, gut shabbos.

 

[Alt+F4]

It is true that Israel fails miserably as a democracy. They have a long way to go.

Considering the birthrate of orthodox Jews compared to secular Jews, I'd say Israel is heading more towards becoming a theocracy, rather than a democracy.

 

[steverino]

It's the stealing that's the messy part. Australia is on stolen land, and IMHO, not nearly enough has been done to remedy that event with it's original inhabitants. It was only in 1967 that the aboriginals were even recognised as citizens with a vote.

While I am glad you appreciate that Australia is improving its treatment of its Aborigonals, I feel your analogy flirts with the idea of equating the Aboriginals with the Palestinians, and the White Australian Colonialists with the Israeli Jews. As you know, this analogy unravels when we consider that, like the Australian Aboriginals, both Jews and Arabs resided in what is now Israel, and Judea and Samaria, for thousands of years.

 

[a_unique_person]

Zionism has ALWAYS been a conspiracy whether the intentions were obvious from the name or not.

A conspiracy is something that is kept secret, Zionists, as the name implies, were always open about their aims.

 

[William Rea]

You can start off by explaining when Iran became an Arab state.

Point taken. Iran is an Islamic Republic however.

 

[William Rea]

A conspiracy is something that is kept secret, Zionists, as the name implies, were always open about their aims.

Conspiracy does not necessitate secrecy.

 

[Cleon]

As you know, this analogy unravels when we consider that, like the Australian Aboriginals, both Jews and Arabs resided in what is now Israel, and Judea and Samaria, for thousands of years.

No argument at all. I agree 100%--it's one of the main reasons I oppose the idea of a "Jewish state" in that region.

However, the analogy still applies to a good extent; the Zionist movement was not born of the local Jewish population in Palestine (which largely opposed the idea). Zionism was a European idea, and the Zionist colonization of Palestine was overwhelmingly a European colonization.