Can this qualify as a challenge?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Fellow Forumers,

I think I understand the Challenge much better now. Thanks a lot for all your inputs and suggestions and elucidation.

It came to my mind to have mix kinds of tests in the sealed boxes. Instead of just physical items to be identified, how about putting numbers also, or color identification, or shape identification, or any other tests. Could you please suggest other things that may be put in the sealed boxes?

My flight to the Philippines is already confirmed. I have already paid the deposit and will fully pay the balance tomorrow and on Friday in cash instead of credit card.

I have talked to Mrs Alvaran and her daughter this evening and emphasized that the application has to be signed, notarized, and mailed as soon as possible. I will be calling her again two days from now (Friday) to know the development at their end.

I know that most, if not all, people in this forum are atheists or agnostics, so I do not proselytize. I will just be wasting my time if I do so. As I said, it is very hard to change one’s beliefs. The only one who can open the door of his heart to a supernatural being is the person himself. Even Jesus cannot do it if the person refuses to accept Him or any other gods.

The spirit told us to tell the truth. So I have been honest with you and explaining my side of topics at hand. There is something that the spirit said with regards to which is the truth. If the spirit says that the answer is right and to a person, it is wrong, He cannot force the person to believe Him. If the spirit says it is wrong and to a person, it is right, again, He cannot force the person to believe Him. He said that only the person, in his heart, who can convince him that the spirit is correct. When I find the dialogue about this, I will post it here so that you may know His exact words. But the gist is something like what I say in this paragraph.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear Fellow Forumers,

I think I understand the Challenge much better now. Thanks a lot for all your inputs and suggestions and elucidation.

It came to my mind to have mix kinds of tests in the sealed boxes. Instead of just physical items to be identified, how about putting numbers also, or color identification, or shape identification, or any other tests. Could you please suggest other things that may be put in the sealed boxes?
...

One simple thing to put in the boxes (or envelopes) would of course be numbers from 0 - 9, written on sheets of paper. You could use one number several times, while not using others at all.
For the JREF Challenge, Mrs. Alvaran probably will be told the range of what could be in the boxes: Numbers, words, cards, etc. This is done to determine the probability of success by chance alone.

Since you have repeatedly claimed a 100% accuracy, PeaceCrusader, you could do an informal test by not telling her the range of content before the test.

The important thing is the proper double blinding, which I roughly described in my protocol proposal under #1. It is imperative that the person preparing the boxes is not allowed to give clues/hints/tips to Mrs. Alvaran.

 

[Moochie]

Simple. He's a troll.

Hardly, mon sewer. Your esteemed self along with your two mates appear to be enablers of all things woo in these forums. I am merely redressing the imbalance.

M.

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AKA Moochie SPSP

 

[Loss Leader]

Since you have repeatedly claimed a 100% accuracy, PeaceCrusader, you could do an informal test by not telling her the range of content before the test.

In fact, PC, i strongly encourage you to do an informal test during your vacation. Before you leave Australia, go to this site: http://www.random.org/nform.html and generate a list of five random numbers between 1 and 100. Write them down, fold the paper several times, seal it in an envelope and leave it in Australia.

Then just ask the spirit for the five numbers. You yourself have guaranteed 100% success. Accept nothing less than getting four of the five numbers EXACTLY RIGHT.

If the spirit refuses this test or gives incorrect results, you probably should think hard before going further with your application. Remember, you are testing to see how well the spirit will do on the actual challenge so offering any hints or help would not be productive. After all, you won't be able to offer any help when taking the real challenge.

Please don't do anything that will help any person anywhere in the world know those numbers before the spirit performs the test. It wouldn't be fair to allow any cheating at this level just to be stymied in front of the JREF's representatives.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Hardly, mon sewer. Your esteemed self along with your two mates appear to be enablers of all things woo in these forums. I am merely redressing the imbalance.

M.

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AKA Moochie SPSP

To me, the foremost thing you do seems to personally attack and mildly insult other posters in this thread while continuing to avoid productive participation.

If that is skeptical behaviour in your book, go for it.

 

[Moochie]

To me, the foremost thing you do seems to personally attack and mildly insult other posters in this thread while continuing to avoid productive participation.

If that is skeptical behaviour in your book, go for it.

I don't consider encouraging the afflicted in their delusions to be "productive participation."

Quite the opposite, in fact.

Since these delusions appear almost intractable, I find your kind of "skepticism" extremely unhelpful.

(The quotation marks are deliberate.)

M.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I don't consider encouraging the afflicted in their delusions to be "productive participation."

Quite the opposite, in fact.

Since these delusions appear almost intractable, I find your kind of "skepticism" extremely unhelpful.

(The quotation marks are deliberate.)

M.

I do not need to attach labels (like "skepticism") to my forehead, and I would not at all call myself a "skeptic".

I go by the evidence. In this case, we have a lot of claims, hearsay and "prophecies" but not much more. When Mrs. Alvarado has completed a test, we'll see what evidence we have and we'll take it from there.

You seem to go by preconceived notions, Moochie. Although you might be right in your assumption, you do not base it on facts. That's good for you but not good enough for me.

 

[Burner]

Hardly, mon sewer. Your esteemed self along with your two mates appear to be enablers of all things woo in these forums. I am merely redressing the imbalance.

You're probably not aware of this, but you aren't that different from most woos. Dismissing things out of hand, unable to get into a proper discussion, very aggressive stance, but ultimately insecure. Face it, you're a believer. Besides, this is a forum where woos present their claims. If they do it in a civil and respectful manner, as PC has done so far, there's no need to bash them constantly, is there?

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

To me, the foremost thing you do seems to personally attack and mildly insult other posters in this thread while continuing to avoid productive participation.

That's what I was thinking... with a dash of "no true scotsman" every other post.

If nothing else, PeaceCrusader has provided some very fine examples of shoehorning predictions.

 

[Jackalgirl]

have talked to Mrs Alvaran and her daughter this evening and emphasized that the application has to be signed, notarized, and mailed as soon as possible. I will be calling her again two days from now (Friday) to know the development at their end.

PC, I have to ask again:

1) Does Mrs. Alvaran read English fluently?
2) Does she (or her daughter) have access to the FAQ, as well as the Application?
3) Have you read both the Application and the FAQ, and do you understand them completely?

 

[Tbone]

Hardly, mon sewer. Your esteemed self along with your two mates appear to be enablers of all things woo in these forums. I am merely redressing the imbalance.

By this logic, by providing the challenge in the first place, James Randi is not just an "enabler," but THE "enabler." As are the people who handle the official challenge preparation, setup, and operation.



Any and all quotation marks are purely coincidental.

 

[Capt.Nemo]

Vacation or challenge?

PC, I hope I've misunderstood something along the way in this thread, but I'm under the impression that you're about to take a rather substantial vacation, both concerning costs and time, to see the challenge answered by this Philippine channeller.
I'm afraid this is not going to happen, at least not while you're present.

I've seen discussions about possible protocols and the channeller's/spirits potential reaction to them, and, while some suggestions are certainly good enough to be part of a final protocol, I'm sure that several steps of the challenge-process have been overlooked.
As soon as the application has been completed and mailed, including notarization and protocol-suggestion, it has to be accepted by JREF. Once it is accepted, the negotiations for the final protocol can begin. Previous postings show that this can take a rather long time.
While the protocol is being thrashed out, JREF will usually also begin the process of finding a local sceptic-organisation or other trusted individual(s) to act as tester(s). This has also proven to take its share of time.
As you can see, and unless I'm completely mistaken, the likelyhood of you being able to witness this test in the one week you're in the Philippines is rather low, especially considering that the channeller has yet to understand the nature of the challenge and complete the application. You may want to rethink your vacation-plans and move it a bit into the future.

If, however, your intentions with the trip is primarily to have a nice vacation of sun, sand, surf and a spirit-guiding session, I wish you the very best.

 

[wombatwal]

What worries me about this man is that he is going to a lot of time and expense to substantiate something that will probably fail.
Is the JREF encouraging him in his possible misguided beliefs.
Can he afford this trip or the time off work.
If he is well off, no worries, but if he is flying by the seat of his pants financially, I feel sorry for him.

 

[Loss Leader]

What worries me about this man is that he is going to a lot of time and expense to substantiate something that will probably fail. Is the JREF encouraging him in his possible misguided beliefs.
Can he afford this trip or the time off work. If he is well off, no worries, but if he is flying by the seat of his pants financially, I feel sorry for him.

I have similar worries.

I feel very sorry for PC. He is about to waste a significant amount of time and a large amount of money chasing this goal. I believe that he understands only very poorly how much work will be involved in preparing for the JREF test. And I believe that this woman (knowing herself that she is a fraud) will engage him in an endless and fruitless run-around. She will agree, she will back out, she will ask to change the protocol, she will refuse to travel any distance, she will insist on concessions at the last minute - and she will never be tested. PC's self-delusion is about to lead him down a very unfortunate path.

However, I do not feel in any way guilty. At no point did anyone on this board do anything other than disuade him from his beliefs. We pointed out how silly his claims were. We pointed out how he was bending himself in knots attempting to retcon world events to ridiculously vague predictions. We pointed out how illogical his thoughts on the subject were.

Still, he persisted. He is a person who needs proof in order to have faith. He is so unsure and timid about his beliefs that he has to have miraculous signs in order to allow him to commit to his god. No such signs actually occurring, he is content to literally make them up out of whole cloth. He is willing to ignore glaring inconsistencies.

He chose the route he is taking. He chose it after many people tried to convince him otherwise. Maybe spending a year and thousands of dollars just to get nowhere is exactly what he needs to realize that faith comes from within and not from without.

 

[Burner]

He chose the route he is taking. He chose it after many people tried to convince him otherwise. Maybe spending a year and thousands of dollars just to get nowhere is exactly what he needs to realize that faith comes from within and not from without.

Most excellent post Loss Leader. You formulated exactly what this whole affair is about and how it's going to unfold. I'm only curious about one thing. Is PC going to accept the truth after he's been run trough hoops by this woman or will he stand firm in his believes? My guess is he'll turn against JREF at one point or another under her influence, since doubting his faith will be too much for him to take.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Let us all try to give the E in JREF a chance to become a reality. Experience provides certain patterns - believers vs. evidence - but we would not want to rule out changes to said patterns per se, would we?

Wouldn't it be amazing if there was proof for a "spirit"?

 

[Jocky]

Most excellent post Loss Leader ... My guess is he'll turn against JREF at one point or another under her influence, since doubting his faith will be too much for him to take

I agree with both those sentiments, Burner.

Blind faith leads to blind alleys. PC has chosen a very expensive route to learn this truth, and in the end he may well prefer to pretend that his blind alley is the open road, rather than change his route.

PC, we are talking about you as if you're not here - but no doubt you have read all these comments about you and your faith. You should consider that the claims which Mrs Alvaran is making are not actually about faith at all, even though they may seem like a matter of faith to you. In fact, they are material claims about how the real world works. Be aware that the real world is what it is, regardless of what people may believe it to be - and no amount of faith will make the slightest difference to the outcome of a challenge.

I doubt the truth of these claims not because my personal faith position differs from yours, but because they are not supported by evidence. Past experience suggests it is extremely unlikely that this claim will succeed. In my view, you should invest money and time into Mrs Alvaran's claim only if you actually think it will work in the real world - and NOT because you believe it should work on the basis of your religious faith.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

In fact, PC, i strongly encourage you to do an informal test during your vacation. Before you leave Australia, go to this site: http://www.random.org/nform.html and generate a list of five random numbers between 1 and 100. Write them down, fold the paper several times, seal it in an envelope and leave it in Australia.

Then just ask the spirit for the five numbers. You yourself have guaranteed 100% success. Accept nothing less than getting four of the five numbers EXACTLY RIGHT.

If the spirit refuses this test or gives incorrect results, you probably should think hard before going further with your application. Remember, you are testing to see how well the spirit will do on the actual challenge so offering any hints or help would not be productive. After all, you won't be able to offer any help when taking the real challenge.

Please don't do anything that will help any person anywhere in the world know those numbers before the spirit performs the test. It wouldn't be fair to allow any cheating at this level just to be stymied in front of the JREF's representatives.

Thanks a lot for your suggestion. I will follow it. I have visited your link and it gave me a list of numbers. I will just pick five successive numbers in any of the five columns to be the test numbers. Rest assured that I will not be cheating myself. If the spirit could identify the numbers which would be in Australia, how much more could He do that if in the actual test, the sealed boxes were in the USA and the medium was in the Philippines? That will be amazing. What do you call that—telepathy?

My going to the Philippines is a very brief one—just ten days. It will not be a vacation but it will be more of a business trip. To me, the trip is costly and unplanned but if the Challenge was successful, the return could be 50 times more.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

PC, I have to ask again:

1) Does Mrs. Alvaran read English fluently?
2) Does she (or her daughter) have access to the FAQ, as well as the Application?
3) Have you read both the Application and the FAQ, and do you understand them completely?

• Mrs. Alvaran does not speak in English, although she can understand. How much? I do not know. That is why, I may have to be present during the testing by JREF to clarify to her the instructions, and to pass on to JREF her responses.
• One of her daughters uses the Internet, so she can access the JREF website, and download the Application and the FAQ. I have not talked to this daughter regarding this Challenge directly but I have instructed another daughter to pass the message on to her sister.
• I have read the Application and the FAQ and quite understand them. I have printed them and placed them in a clear fold plastic display book. Also with your help, I came to understand the Challenge better and what it entails. When I go to the Philippines in a few weeks, I will try my best to have Mrs. Alvaran understands this Challenge.

For further clarifications, please do not hesitate to raise your queries and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Loss Leader]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

• Mrs. Alvaran does not speak in English, although she can understand. How much? I do not know. That is why, I may have to be present during the testing by JREF to clarify to her the instructions, and to pass on to JREF her responses.
• One of her daughters uses the Internet, so she can access the JREF website, and download the Application and the FAQ. I have not talked to this daughter regarding this Challenge directly but I have instructed another daughter to pass the message on to her sister.
• I have read the Application and the FAQ and quite understand them. I have printed them and placed them in a clear fold plastic display book. Also with your help, I came to understand the Challenge better and what it entails. When I go to the Philippines in a few weeks, I will try my best to have Mrs. Alvaran understands this Challenge.

For further clarifications, please do not hesitate to raise your queries and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Well, I can't ask for more.