Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[Correa Neto]

Some excerpts from The Woo-Woo Credo

4 Try to answer as few direct questions as possible. Always obfuscate and try to sound learned.

5 Use "what if" scenarios to change the subject whenever possible. If you linger on one topic too long you may be asked to provide annoying things like "proof." Don't let that happen!

6 If you're cornered and asked for proof of something, always tell the person that they "can't disprove" your claims. Many of them will just walk away shaking their heads, which of course means they agree with you. A side-to-side head shake could be the same as a vertical nod. Anything is possible, after all.

8 When all else fails, start asking hypothetical questions that have nothing to do with the actual debate. If your opponent chooses to ignore your pointless questions and remains on topic, repeat your meaningless question(s) over and over. This will make any Believers in the audience think that your opponent is evading the issue.

9 Accuse your opponent of being a liar, or try some other tactic that will (hopefully) make him angry. If he responds in kind to your endless taunts, change the subject to his anger, and accuse him of name calling. If he accuses you of provoking him, then you have changed the subject of the debate. If he stays on topic, keep the heat up. The Believers in the audience will forgive the worst verbal attacks you use, but they will think even the mildest replies he makes to you are personal attacks that undermine his argument.

12 Always claim that the other guy is "closed-minded" and that you're as free-thinking as a newborn baby. Other woo-woos love the concept of "open-mindedness" and will take you into their inner circle without question. They have no tolerance for those "mean old nasty" types who demand evidence for everything.

But wait! There's more!

Just go to http://www.insolitology.com/tests/credo.htm to check some of the FANTASTIC and EFFICIENT woo debate tactics that are being used RIGHT NOW!

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/acrocephalus/

Those folks who aren't in the field made another discovery....

Adapt, or go extinct:

The large-billed reed warbler was found nesting in grass filter beds used for sewage treatment.

 

[kitakaze]

Correa.... YOU...are....the bomb!!! I've been waiting for that bad boy for a while now.

ETA: #$%&! LTC, you filthy little monkey, you've shot down the next 'interlude' I was about to post.

 

[kitakaze]

Taken as a whole....they carry a significant amount of weight.

Oh really? How's that? Maybe you forgot to add a 'to me' at the end of that statement because claimed BF sightings are certainly not characterized that way by anyone successfully engaging in critical thinking. Sounds to me like you're up to nothing more than your typical weak coffee peddling. I'm very curious to hear your explanation of how taking sightings claims as a whole improves their quality as evidence.

As for Joyce's sighting report....in light of her phone call to me....by my analysis, it carries a lot of weight.
I give it a very high "degree of probability", because none of the alternative explanations sensibly account for ALL these aspects of it....

Yes, most of us here are quite familiar with the extent and quality of your 'analysis'. Funny, but when you say 'analysis' I can't help imagining you wearing a patented Stuponitron helmet. That reminds me of your other forthcoming 'analysis' described by you thusly:

I'm working on drawing human-shaped head outlines inside the side profile outline of Patty's head.

We'll see what that shows.

Mmmm... How's that coming, BTW?

1) The clarity and duration of the sighting,
2) Her daughter also seeing it,
3) Her husband supporting her story,
4) Her long-distance phone call to me, a total stranger...years after she filed the report.

Again, what have you verified other than Joyce is a real women who submitted a bigfoot report to the BFRO and her husband was aware of it?

One more thing, have you ever attempted to research the specific area of where she claimed the sighting? I have.

ETA: Sweaty, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that as opposed to dodging you simply haven't gotten around to addressing being totally schooled by Correa.

 

[LTC8K6]

you've shot down the next 'interlude' I was about to post

Sorry, I was just coming back from planting tracks where no one would ever see them when I noticed the story...

 

[kitakaze]

Sorry, I was just coming back from planting tracks where no one would ever see them when I noticed the story...

That's my man! Don't forget to eat Grapenuts, Muslix, and deer liver for a week and take a big dump nearby next time.

OK, here's the deal. I've got a most likely stupid but potentially diabolically genius plan for us goddamn dirty SOB skeptics keepin' the man down with our bigfoot discovery sabotage. Here's the kick, it all depends on willing participation by a proponent (our resident BF rising star and ex-BFRO investigator, Hairy Man. We love you, Kathy!) and keeping it all on the DL 'cuz, you know, who watching?

This is what we do:
All of us regular BF posters using the BFRO sighting report template submit our best attempts at forging a BF encounter to Hairy by PM within a period of a week or two. Hairy is our elected judge and will assist, if she likes, on fine tuning our submissions. After the period expires, Hairy nominates the one she thinks is the best. The goal is to submit it to the BFRO. The part I haven't totally worked out is how we take it to the follow-up investigation phase. I personally want to aim for a more recent sighting that will attract a detailed follow-up but not too audacious. We're gonna need someone to volunteer to be the submitter and be ready for some over the phone BSing skills. I was kinda thinking that my own 'encounter' would be perfect in a way because I can submit it and being in Japan it limits what extent they can communicate with me. It would end up being a cool Class B but I need to get around the fact that I'm basically screwing it by talking about it at all as a regular BF skeptic poster.

I know this is probably just really dumb but I'm curious if anyone has any feedback.

 

[LTC8K6]

Maybe the follow up can be via phone?

 

[kitakaze]

Maybe the follow up can be via phone?

As far as I've thought it through, which admittedly is not enough, the submission needs to be done in such a way as to try and guarantee a phone call follow-up which is how a significant portion are 'investigated'. The downward spiral of the BFRO's standards of accountability only aid in this area.

Then again, Sweaty might just rat us out and I'd have to start a 'Sweaty is a snitch' thread in Flame Wars.

 

[Correa Neto]

That's my man! Don't forget to eat Grapenuts, Muslix, and deer liver for a week and take a big dump nearby next time.

OK, here's the deal. I've got a most likely stupid but potentially diabolically genius plan for us goddamn dirty SOB skeptics keepin' the man down with our bigfoot discovery sabotage. Here's the kick, it all depends on willing participation by a proponent (our resident BF rising star and ex-BFRO investigator, Hairy Man. We love you, Kathy!) and keeping it all on the DL 'cuz, you know, who watching?

This is what we do:
All of us regular BF posters using the BFRO sighting report template submit our best attempts at forging a BF encounter to Hairy by PM within a period of a week or two. Hairy is our elected judge and will assist, if she likes, on fine tuning our submissions. After the period expires, Hairy nominates the one she thinks is the best. The goal is to submit it to the BFRO. The part I haven't totally worked out is how we take it to the follow-up investigation phase. I personally want to aim for a more recent sighting that will attract a detailed follow-up but not too audacious. We're gonna need someone to volunteer to be the submitter and be ready for some over the phone BSing skills. I was kinda thinking that my own 'encounter' would be perfect in a way because I can submit it and being in Japan it limits what extent they can communicate with me. It would end up being a cool Class B but I need to get around the fact that I'm basically screwing it by talking about it at all as a regular BF skeptic poster.

I know this is probably just really dumb but I'm curious if anyone has any feedback.

Well, if I were somehow associated to BFRO, I would be already on the lookout for a hoax attempt from evil JREF skeptics...

When the BF threads started, I tendered the idea of submitting a false report to them and checking the results. The only thing that stopped me from doing so was lazyness -too lazy to get an e-mail account from an USA server. I posted a short version of the aborted hoax right here not too long ago.

Chances are that as soon as the hoax is exposed and the fragility of the system is show, the response would most likely comparable to the reaction Dfoot's "Patty suit" triggered. Mostly enraged protests. And they would keep business as usual.

But I still consider some interesting experiments can be made with Hairy Man's help. The tests on report submission, for example. We can send some balooney reports and see if the investigators are able to catch them among "real reports". But I acknoweledge this is quite problematic, since I can see a lot of problems on performing something close to a double-blind test.

Aniway, if its just for fun... Well, its temptating...

 

[William Parcher]

You have lost your mind Kitakaze. I'm concerned that you do not understand Bigfootery. If not already, by the end of today the BFRO will be on red alert. There are Bigfootery foot soldiers who will make your life miserable after they are presented with your phone number. Expect it to be publicly posted.

The JREF Bigfoot threads are read by far more people than you can imagine. Wanna see your posting end up as the newest Cryptomundo blog? You my friend, just jumped-the-shark in a very big way. I will have nothing to do with this project.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, reading some of the reports there, it seems unlikely that much screening is done at all.

I generally do frown on deception, though.

I don't object to faking a track to see if it is spotted, as that is fundamental to their case for bigfoot.

 

[Hairy Man]

I think as an exercise, it would be interesting, but I wouldn't be ok with trying to hoax the BFRO...

1) Don't ever put your own credibility at stake. If it was ever learned that one of you submitted a false report, it would be used against you (and possibly JREF).

2) MM has spies everywhere...they probably already read it here!

3) At the cost of my secret decoder ring, the BFRO uses a very elaborate database designed by an INTEL database expert. When reports come in, all the information about your computer and location are recorded; and they run checks on all names and phone numbers. Since to pull this off, someone would have to use their real name and phone number, you are putting yourself at risk of having your private data exposed to the world. Trust me on that...MM would do it in a heartbeat.

edit: William beat me to it!

 

[kitakaze]

You have lost your mind Kitakaze. I'm concerned that you do not understand Bigfootery. If not already, by the end of today the BFRO will be on red alert. There are Bigfootery foot soldiers who will make your life miserable after they are presented with your phone number. Expect it to be publicly posted.

The JREF Bigfoot threads are read by far more people than you can imagine. Wanna see your posting end up as the newest Cryptomundo blog? You my friend, just jumped-the-shark in a very big way. I will have nothing to do with this project.

William, somehow I knew you'd be the one to remind me of the dumbness of my brainfart. Well, I still think that trying to manufacture and submit a report is not completely insane. But yeah, I certainly was thinking stupid thoughts out loud. I can't help thinking that it's obvious that the foot soldiers aren't being very helpful in contributing to a reversal of the BFRO's laughing stock status, though.

Oh well, here's some jokers Brazilian bigfoot claim:

In the past, speakers at the meetings have included a dog trainer, who addressed Bigfoot's fear of dogs (a phenomenon often mentioned at Ray's meetings); a member of a local search-and-rescue team, who said that the media had neglected to mention that a three-year-old boy whom he rescued in the summer of 1989 from the forests around Mount Hood had credited a "large hairy man" for keeping him company during the long night; and a former paramilitary officer with the National Security Agency, who, on a top-secret mission somewhere in the rainforests of Mato Grosso, Brazil, photographed what he now thinks must have been a Sasquatch, only to have the film confiscated by higher-ups.

ETA: Yeah, you're right too, Hairy. OK, I officially admit that I had a really dumb idea with no diabolical genius to it, whatsoever. I've just been mulling over the how to demonstrate the dumbness of many submitted reports and keeping in mind the general demonization of BF skeptics I dropped a lemon.

 

[kitakaze]

You know what? The irony that DY's creation of this thread addressed what I was thinking about in a far superior way went right over my head until now. Yay, I learned something important today!

 

[VulcanWay]

3) At the cost of my secret decoder ring, the BFRO uses a very elaborate database designed by an INTEL database expert. When reports come in, all the information about your computer and location are recorded; and they run checks on all names and phone numbers. Since to pull this off, someone would have to use their real name and phone number, you are putting yourself at risk of having your private data exposed to the world. Trust me on that...MM would do it in a heartbeat.

Very smart for any organization conducting the type of research that yours is.

A question that I have, that hasn't been answered yet as far as I have seen here, is what happens after a sighting is thusly submitted? You go through a great deal of effort with the above-mentioned database, but as far as I can tell that is where the research and follow-up end. If that is not the case, I apologize but no after-sighting follow-up has been mentioned in this thread, as I note.

Are any of these many foots-soldiers dispatched to the sites in question to take photos, and whatnot, to look for and document corroborating evidence? Are these people interviewed after their sighting submission?

If I'm coming off as adverserial, I'm actually not. I don't believe that there are such things as a Bigfoot but as a skeptic (even of the anti-Bigfoot stance) I'm willing to keep an open mind and see what develops. And nothing can develop if the various Bigfoot groups don't step up their game and get more documentation done and gather more corroborative evidence. Period. That or a specimen. And, right now, it doesn't look like anything truly scientific is in play.

I wish you pro-Bigfoot folks the best, but nothing has been produced that has swayed my opinion in your direction. As I've said in earlier posts, some sightings are worthy of more investigation. The problem is that such investigation has not been done, so I really have a problem putting alot of credence behind them.

How about this - let's not spoof the Bigfoot sites (good idea to not do so, regardless). Let's have skeptics and Bigfoot folks work together and put together a site that puts something new in the public's eye and do what we can to see that Google and other search engines see it. It doesn't matter if it's exposed as a hoax. How about the "Woodland Dryad of Colorado - at least one female-looking creature has been sighted that looks as if her skin is made from tree-bark! Her hair is made up completely of leaves and her feet leave root-like tracks!" We have an area on the site to register sightings and see what happens. It wouldn't be scientific, but I think it would be telling as to how (and where) sightings were reported and the details or lack thereof in them.

What are the skeptics' and Bigfoot folks' thoughts on something like this?

 

[kitakaze]

Personally, I love having stupid ideas when they inspire much better ones like the one Vulcan just had.

 

[Correa Neto]

...snip...Oh well, here's some jokers Brazilian bigfoot claim: ...snip...

So, you saw the mapinguari, Brazil's bigfoot...
Oh, you managed to take a picture of it... Good...
Can I take a look at your camera?
Thank you.

Now, please pay attention to the red light...

*ZAP!*

Sir, it was a tapir.

Damn neuralizers... Always malfunction on wet climates...

 

[William Parcher]

Well, I still think that trying to manufacture and submit a report is not completely insane.

Why do it? You've already said that you are convinced that fabricated sightings are in the BFRO database. What happens after you get your sighting posted there? Do you just laugh to yourself, knowing what you already knew?

But yeah, I certainly was thinking stupid thoughts out loud.

It's not just about the stupidity, it's about real dangers to your privacy.

I can't help thinking that it's obvious that the foot soldiers aren't being very helpful in contributing to a reversal of the BFRO's laughing stock status, though.

It's only a laughing stock to strong skeptics. Bigfootery is for Bigfooters. It's a religion to many, and some of them will rain hellfire on you for screwing with their church. The BFRO looks like a joke to skeptics, but it is an institution to many devoted believers.

OK, I officially admit that I had a really dumb idea with no diabolical genius to it, whatsoever. I've just been mulling over the how to demonstrate the dumbness of many submitted reports and keeping in mind the general demonization of BF skeptics I dropped a lemon.

Do you hate Bigfoot believers or something? Do you think a silver bullet will bring down the House of Bigfoot? Have you ever watched the debate war between evolutionists and creationists? The only tangible result are changes in school curricula policies. Bigfootery is not even close to being a grand social problem or issue. The public media already is outwardly skeptical about Bigfoot. Watch some local news clips when they report Bigfoot sightings. The reporters and anchors will often snicker, laugh with each other and make innuendos. What's interesting is that they almost never do that when reporting mainstream religious topics. They can joke about Bigfoot believers, but watch them keep a straight face when speaking about what The Pope recently said.

Bigfootery is obviously jealous of the significance and respect paid to other belief systems in the media. They are very vocal about how Tom Biscardi always seems to get the limelight. Mostly they say that that kind of coverage makes the "field of Bigfoot research" look bad to the public. They are constantly mumbling to each other about strategies to bring public legitimacy to their belief. It is completely unneccesary and self-serving to send a zinger bomb into the BFRO. Their devotion to the belief will justify some of them throwing the bomb right back in your face.

 

[Belz...]

it is an institution to many devoted believers.

Creepy.

 

[William Parcher]

Belief..yes..there is definitely some of that as well, for myself included. Bigfoot has been a part of my life for a very long time and I have very, very fond memories of camping, hiking, and having a good time in search of bigfoot (I ALWAYS have a good time when I'm in the field). I love the idea of the mystery and hunting for an answer. Would I someday feel frustrated if/when the answer never comes? Maybe. I don't think, in the end, bigfoot is ever going to be proved not to exist, but as time passes, people find their own proof (like Matt) or their "faith" wavers. Where am I? Currently, I am strong in the force... (and for the record, I don't believe in UFOs, Nessie, Mothman, flying animal things, ghosts, fairies, etc....)

This is where my aggressive BF skepticism stops. I might love Bigfoot as much as you do. I just don't believe the animal exists. It's the coolest myth I've ever heard of.

BF believers must often have electric hopes and expectations any time they enter a forest. It's no wonder at all why a New York Bigfooter can't wait for the weekend to go exploring the nearby woods. I understand that feeling, but for me it's the opportunity to see some animal that I've only seen in pictures, television or zoos. If it takes a belief in Bigfoot to bring that kind of wonder and happiness to some peoples' lives - I don't even know how to start criticizing it. If you love Bigfoot the way I think you might, then I'm right behind you. No kinds of love are better than others.