Buzz lightyear and the JREF Challenge

[Tricky]

So far the only explination that is slightly plausible for any of the formations is the "mud crack" theory for the polygons .
This falls apart when the cracks decend vertically.

LOL. You propose supernatural origins, but you find geologic explanations implausible? Are you immune to irony?

BTW, if the "cracks" Zep describes are indeed a result of clay shrinkage (i.e. mud), it doesn not necessarily mean they are shallow. The rocks contain lots of clay minerals throughout the matrix. Shrinkage may occur uniformly within the rocks, sending the cracks very deep. Another word for this is "jointing". No, it is not like the "jointing" you do at one of your parties.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Well Zep , I'm not sure what else that I can provide as evidence for my theory .
Really, the evidence is out there at Patonga and West Head .
If you can satisfy yourself that those formations are the result of cracking mud , then so be it .

But as I'm heading down that way next weekend I'll see if I can photograph areas to address this "mud crack" theory .

 

[Tricky]

Well Zep , I'm not sure what else that I can provide as evidence for my theory .
Really, the evidence is out there at Patonga and West Head .
If you can satisfy yourself that those formations are the result of cracking mud , then so be it .

But as I'm heading down that way next weekend I'll see if I can photograph areas to address this "mud crack" theory .

You'll have to do more than photograph. You'll have to take some thin sections and do some mineralogical analysis. It would also help to get a core. Photographs are only one of many tools that geologists use.

Do you own a rock hammer? A Brunton compass? A mass spectrograph? Plenty of beer? These are the tools of the geologist.

 

[Reno]

Beer? Need an assistant buzz?

 

[Zep]

Well Zep , I'm not sure what else that I can provide as evidence for my theory .
Really, the evidence is out there at Patonga and West Head .
If you can satisfy yourself that those formations are the result of cracking mud , then so be it .

But as I'm heading down that way next weekend I'll see if I can photograph areas to address this "mud crack" theory .

Oh crumbs, you ARE deliberately dense.

I did NOT say "MUD" cracks. I said drying swampland. Your formation could consist of sand and mud and clays (i.e. an old swamp), it could be plain sand with iron salts (also common around here), or it could be sand in pale cream Spackle for all we have been presented with so far. Some ancient aboriginal could have taken a long time to laboriously carve the cracks in the rock. Who knows!

How about some actual details? You know, evidence?

 

[Zep]

You'll have to do more than photograph. You'll have to take some thin sections and do some mineralogical analysis. It would also help to get a core. Photographs are only one of many tools that geologists use.

Do you own a rock hammer? A Brunton compass? A mass spectrograph? Plenty of beer? These are the tools of the geologist.

Precisely.

Cheers, Tricky.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Not really much into busting up rocks ,Tricky so I'll give the rock hammer and core drill a miss .
Anyway ,most of these sites are in National Park, and they get pissed if you go busting rocks in there. Besides this, there is a 5 meter road cut right through the site , gives a good cross section .

And evidence , hey Zep .
There is the Aboriginal mythology ........but........
In fact there is hardly a place in the world that doesnt have a creation serpent tucked away in some corner . But its just mythology so we will rule it non admissable .
There is the sandstone , but we still have to "test" it ,so its an unknown .

So it looks pretty much like I am up s..ters ditch , with Randis " mill " .
Anyway here is an interesting "woo" site which could probably be considered "evidence" .
This dude got similar results to me .http://deoxy.org/shamanway.htm

 

[Tricky]

test" it ,so its an unknown .

So it looks pretty much like I am up s..ters ditch , with Randis " mill " .
Anyway here is an interesting "woo" site which could probably be considered "evidence" .
This dude got similar results to me .http://deoxy.org/shamanway.htm

LOL. Yeah, that's evidence, all right Buzz. Evidence of one hell of a party.
From your link:

...
The people were very friendly, but reluctant to talk about the supernatural. Finally they told me that if I really wished to learn, I must take the shaman's sacred drink made from ayahuasca, the "soul vine." I agreed, with both curiousity and trepidation, for they warned me that the experience would be very frightening.
...

As I stared upward into the darkness, faint lines of light appeared. They grew sharper, more intricate, and burst into brilliant colors. Sound came from far away, a sond like a waterfall, which grew stronger and stronger until it filled my ears. Just a few minutes earlier I had been disappointed, sure that the ayahuasca was not going to have any effect on me. Now the sound of rushing water flooded my brain. My jaw began to feel numb, and the numbness was moving up to my temples.
...
First they showed me the planet Earth as it was eons ago, before there was any life on it. I saw an ocean, barren land, and a bright blue sky. Then black specks dropped from the sky by the hundreds and landed in front of me on the barren landscape. I could see that the "specks" were actually large, shiny, black creatures with stubby pterodactyl-like wings and huge whale-like bodies. Their heads were not visible to me. They flopped down, utterly exhausted from their trip, resting for eons.
...

Somehow, Buzz, I don't think that the hallucinations of a drug trip are quite the kind of evidence we're looking for, though it does explain a lot about how some of these legends are generated and why they are so bizarre. I know it's none of my business, but I can't help but suggest that you not rely on drug addicts as sources of reliable data.

Now, had they been using beer instead of some LSD-like drug, I might give his story more credence.

 

[Belz...]

You see, primitive people had no way of gathering evidence, so instead, they made up stories. Some of those stories are very interesting and fun (I'm a big fan of Greek mythology myself), but they don't really help explain how the world works.

Yet, somehow it's just lovely that the initial "god" of the Greek pantheon happens to be "chaos". At least they got that part right.

I love Greek mythlogy, too, by the way. Who doesn't ?

Silicon cannot be fused into iron.

No, but silicium and sulfur can be fused into iron in a dying giant star...

 

[buzz lightyear]

Its a pity that the recreational use of hallucinogens gives the uninformed the idea that anyone who uses them is a drug addict .
Particularly when they have just polished of a couple of bottles of alcohol to fuel their own substance addiction , hey Tricky .

The greatest frontier that man can explore is his own mind . To do this requires unique and powerful tools .
Like all powerful tools , they can be lethal in the hands of the inexperienced or reckless .
But used correctly they allow doors that are normally closed, to be opened .

You probably should have at look a Michael Harners credientals , he is not your average junkie . Have 'you' done some lecturing at Yale ?

 

[Zep]

And evidence , hey Zep .
There is the Aboriginal mythology ........but........
In fact there is hardly a place in the world that doesnt have a creation serpent tucked away in some corner . But its just mythology so we will rule it non admissable .
There is the sandstone , but we still have to "test" it ,so its an unknown .

Wow. Talk about deliberately trying to snooker yourself (quite unsuccessfully too).

1) Yes, aboriginal mythology is NOT evidence for Australian geology. Just as Roman mythology is not evidence for the Italian Alps (and they had snakes too). To insist on any connection there, beyond allegory, is evidence of your lack of touch with reality (pharmacologically induced or otherwise).

2) Your sandstone IS perfectly good evidence, but we are just not sure yet exactly what it is evidence of. Hence the questions to you, and Tricky's outline of the examination processes involved.

Clear? (I'm suspecting strongly it isn't...)

So it looks pretty much like I am up s..ters ditch , with Randis " mill " .
Anyway here is an interesting "woo" site which could probably be considered "evidence" .
This dude got similar results to me .http://deoxy.org/shamanway.htm

You are right with your first sentence there, but your position would be considered that perilous by any rational person, not just JREFers. A child of 5, for example, would see through that as a rather unsuccessful ruse to gain sympathy.

 

[Tricky]

Its a pity that the recreational use of hallucinogens gives the uninformed the idea that anyone who uses them is a drug addict .

Fair enough. Let's just call them "regular drug users".

Particularly when they have just polished of a couple of bottles of alcohol to fuel their own substance addiction , hey Tricky .

I don't drink beer at work, Buzz. It is a "recreational" drug. Perhaps you need to have "recreational" explained to you. If Shamenguy wants to do LSD for recreation, more power to him. If he expects anyone to believe what he says while tripping, well, I hate to disappoint you.

The greatest frontier that man can explore is his own mind . To do this requires unique and powerful tools .

Right. Let's list all of the great discoveries made by people who were in hallucinogenic trances. There's... um... uh... well...
OH YEAH! I just remembered! Samuel Coleridge wrote "Kubla Khan" while high on opium. Man, what a great poem. And the best part is, all of that stuff is true! Xanadu really does exist just like Coleridge described it, doesn't it?

Like all powerful tools , they can be lethal in the hands of the inexperienced or reckless.
But used correctly they allow doors that are normally closed, to be opened.

It is a tool for recreation and perhaps religion. It is not a tool for discovering actual facts. Any attempt to reshape facts to support the vision encountered while in a hallucinogenic trance will just look like... well... one of your posts.

You probably should have at look a Michael Harners credentials , he is not your average junkie . Have 'you' done some lecturing at Yale?

LOL. Yeah, Timothy Leary was a college professor too. Getting attention is not the same as discovering useful knowledge, Buzz. Find me a single geology textbook which incorporates Michael Harner's "discoveries" in it. After you've wasted your time on that futile search, look at someone like Gregor Mendel who discovered the fundamentals of genetics while living in a monastery. He is in every genetics textbook, even though he never lectured at Yale.

If Harner wanted to use his dreams to make some cool fantasy movie or write "Perry Hotter and the Serpent of Stone", that would be great. If he wants his drug-induced visions to become a part of the body of knowledge we call "science", then he must produce some data that supports him. Neither he nor you have done that.

Okay, I take that back. He has added to the field of science known as Anthropology. He should have quit while he was ahead.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Personally Tricky , I don't 'do' recreational drugs . I find enough pleasure in my world that I don't need to rely on artifical endorphin stimulation .

As for the advances made with the use of hallucinogens :
Before LSD was made a controlled substance , it was widely circulated amongst the academia of the 50s and 60s .
There is a good chance that the mind opening effects of this substance contributed to many of the advances in science of that time and since .
The unravelling of the DNA code by Francis Crick is one anecdotal example . And he did make it into the history books .

Also there is much more to the human than just understanding rocks and making advances in science .
The most important thing that we must understand is ourself .

 

[Tricky]

Personally Tricky, I don't 'do' recreational drugs. I find enough pleasure in my world that I don't need to rely on artifical endorphin stimulation.

I'm very happy for you. It is probably a good idea that you stay away from drugs.

As for the advances made with the use of hallucinogens :
Before LSD was made a controlled substance , it was widely circulated amongst the academia of the 50s and 60s.
There is a good chance that the mind opening effects of this substance contributed to many of the advances in science of that time and since .
The unravelling of the DNA code by Francis Crick is one anecdotal example . And he did make it into the history books.

Yes, that rumor circulated, but Crick was not only quick to deny it but willing to sue anybody who circulated it.

Oh, and you might not want to try to put him on your team.

In a 1987 case before the Supreme Court, Crick joined a group of other Nobel laureates who advised that, "'Creation-science' simply has no place in the public-school science classroom." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crick#_note-30

I'm thinking he would have little use for the "Serpent Origin of the Hawkesbury Sandstone" theory.

However, it is well documented that most of the work done in discovering the structure of DNA was done in the laboratory and supported by evidence. Now if the "serpent theory" were supported by evidence, it wouldn't bother me if the notion were discovered while snorking down 'shrooms and hash brownies in Richard Pryor's basement. But if all you have are dreams and hallucinations, then such a theory should be quite rightly dismissed.

Also there is much more to the human than just understanding rocks and making advances in science .
The most important thing that we must understand is ourself .

That's fine. As long as you don't try to use your "self understanding" to make scientific statements, such as how a certain rock was deposited, please feel free to continue your omphaloskepsis. If you decide to enter the arena of science though, then arm yourself for a scientific challenge.

 

[Little 10 Toes]

Does not compute

In fact there is hardly a place in the world that doesnt have a creation serpent tucked away in some corner . But its just mythology so we will rule it non admissable .

You do know that these two sentence's logic cancel each other out.

 

[Tirdun]

In fact there is hardly a place in the world that doesnt have a creation serpent tucked away in some corner

Oh, I don't know.

Greek: There are snakes to be sure, but no creation serpent.
Babylonian: Creator god, no serpents or snakes.
Minos: Snake goddess, but she wasn't the creator.
Iroquois: Use a toad and turtle, but no snake.
Jewish: Has a snake, but it's just a disguise.

The mother/father myth is just as common, and far more logical (Japan, Greece, Egypt) and Trees are pretty common (Hopi, Norse, Bushmen) and so are Eggs (Hindu). Should we be looking for archaeological evidence of giant earth-carrying turtles? God producing eggs? Universal trees?

 

[buzz lightyear]

You have gone to length to find examples of creation theories that don't contain serpents ,Tirdun . Even quoting those that do contain serpents , but have other aspects to them i.e Japanese , Hindu , Norse and Egyptian .
This selective quoting seems to be a common event in this forum .

Tricky also did this with his information on Francis Crick .
He chose not to mention that Mr Crick was a member of a group called " Soma " who were advocating the legalisation of marijauna .
The interesting thing about the name "soma" is that it is the name of the hallucinogenic mushroom , " Fly Agaric " .
It seems very likely that anyone involved in this group had more than a passing involvement in hallucinogens .

This is not "critical thinking" , but something that was common in the dark ages , more what could be called " blinkered thinking " .

 

[Reno]

So it looks pretty much like I am up s..ters ditch , with Randis " mill " .

Have 'you' done some lecturing at Yale?

Why does buzz need to put the skeptic space in between the quote marks in " mill ", but not between the emphasis marks in 'you'?

ETA: he does not put the skeptic space in the words critical thinking in post #537. So he's not consistent.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

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Epilogues #0000000000000000000000000000000000000101 - #0000000000000000000000000000000000000110.

(Still only counting this thread.)

 

[Belz...]

Its a pity that the recreational use of hallucinogens gives the uninformed the idea that anyone who uses them is a drug addict .

Only if they're addicted.

The greatest frontier that man can explore is his own mind .

Actually, its the first and most boring one.

If you have really good ideas, though, "exploring" them would be putting them to good use, not nodding to yourself with glee.