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BBC and WTC 7 on 9/11: confusion or NWO-blunder?

You know the next time I sign up to be a part of the big bad evil NWO Cabal, I think I'll look for a smarter, less careless one. I mean Larry opens his big mouth, Rummy tells them abou the missile, george tells them he saw it happen live, then the BBC let it out 20 minutes too early. Just proves a good "evil cabal" is hard to find these days.

TAM;)
 
No, i'm saying that skeptics use extreme false choice fallacies then accuse truthers of doing it in the same thread.

How about answering the question. I'll rephrase it so that a simple yes/no answer will suffice. If the firefighters were aware that 7 was to be brought down via CD and are now covering up this knowledge - wouldn't that mean they were involved in the conspiracy and ensuing coverup?
 
Well noone died in 7, so being complicit in its demolition would not be complicity in murder.
The problem with that is, not only would they have to be complicit in the demo of WTC7, but also in the subsequent coverup of said demo. And, since this occurred as part of all of the events that occurred that day, it would necessitate them agreeing to the demo, agreeing to the coverup, and agreeing to ignore that it would likely have been tied to the other buildings.
 
How about answering the question. I'll rephrase it so that a simple yes/no answer will suffice. If the firefighters were aware that 7 was to be brought down via CD and are now covering up this knowledge - wouldn't that mean they were involved in the conspiracy and ensuing coverup?
No.
 
I think it's clear that many people knew WTC7 was coming down. OCTs want to spin it as "experts said it was likely to collapse". I find that ridiculous. A much more likely explanation is that people knew it was rigged for demolition and was going to be pulled.

ummmm....what people knew?
 
My 2 choices were meant to be sarcastic. Sorry, I was just laughing too hard for too long last night. I was giddy. I've calmed down. Offer up any choices you wish. In my opinion, the BBC were fed a press release that said the Salomon Bros. buliding had collapsed.

I think it's clear that many people knew WTC7 was coming down. OCTs want to spin it as "experts said it was likely to collapse". I find that ridiculous. A much more likely explanation is that people knew it was rigged for demolition and was going to be pulled.

Why weren't there any stories circulating about Banker's Trust buliding? That had a monsterous gash in it. WFC3 had damage too.

are you that juvenile that you use these highschool tactics of insult through laughter like this. When was the last time you actually came in here and said anything sensible. I could even handle some sarcasm if properly placed (lord knows I use enough of it) but you are simply acting like a child.

Oh I am so upset, TS was laughing at us last night...now my feelings are hurt. I am going to take my toys and go home now...

Pathetic.

TAM
 
My 2 choices were meant to be sarcastic. Sorry, I was just laughing too hard for too long last night. I was giddy. I've calmed down. Offer up any choices you wish. In my opinion, the BBC were fed a press release that said the Salomon Bros. buliding had collapsed.
Opinions are not evidence.

I think it's clear that many people knew WTC7 was coming down.
Agreed, many professionals on the scene felt the building's structural integrity was compremised.

OCTs want to spin it as "experts said it was likely to collapse". I find that ridiculous.
Argument from personal incredulity is a logical fallacy.

A much more likely explanation is that people knew it was rigged for demolition and was going to be pulled.
How much more likely? Please quatify it. Please show your evidence to support your quatifications.

Why weren't there any stories circulating about Banker's Trust buliding? That had a monsterous gash in it. WFC3 had damage too.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, neither is it evidence of coverup.
 
I think it's clear that many people knew WTC7 was coming down. OCTs want to spin it as "experts said it was likely to collapse". I find that ridiculous. A much more likely explanation is that people knew it was rigged for demolition and was going to be pulled.

But there WERE experts who said it was likely to collapse. Gravy and others have given you dozens of their quotes. As usual, when you say 'People know' it was rigged, you are talking about real people you are accusing of lying. And, since you DO believe in the full-blown government orchestrated the entire event fantasy, you ARE accusing them of complicity to mass murder.

Just because you say it is a 'much more likely explanation' has no bearing on if it is truly 'much more likely'. Your objectivity is seriously in question, and has been since your first post.

Got to hand it to you, though. Unlike Aphelion, you at least DO make a stand. You got full-blown Conspiracy Theory-itus
 
Norad lied to the 911 commission. Does that make them complicit in the murder of 3000 people?

Please stick to the topic. If you want to talk about NORAD, bump the nearest NORAD thread and ask your little questions there. We are talking about the firefighters foreknowledge. Let me refresh your memory.....

me said:
If the firefighters were aware that 7 was to be brought down via CD and are now covering up this knowledge - wouldn't that mean they were involved in the conspiracy and ensuing coverup?

you said:

HyJinx said:
Care to explain?

Try again.
 
He is desperate to not explain his position, because once he does, it will be rendered ridiculous by the facts.

He'll dance and dance and dance and dance around to prevent ever actually saying what he believes happened.

Watch.
 
An aside: Logic Fallacies 101: The False Choice Fallacy:
False dilemma
This fallacy typically involves asking a question and providing only two possible answers when there are actually far more. It seems to be a favourite of politicians, especially when trying to win support for a none-too-plausible policy. Take this classic example:
You're either with us or against us.
The implicit argument here is that two possible positions exist with regard to the matter at hand: in favour or opposed. If we are not in favour, then, it follows that we must be opposed; and vice versa. The use of such tactics often give us the opportunity of appreciating fine—if overblown—rhetoric, too, like "do you support this war to defend our way of life or are you a cowardly, treasonous blackguard?" To expose the question as a false dilemma, all we need do is show that an alternative response exits. Other names for the same thing are the black and white fallacy, which immediately calls our attention to the shades of grey that are ignored, or the bifurcation fallacy.
Take another example:
Either you support lowering taxes or you're content to see this country go to hell in short order.
The person presenting such a choice presumably advocates the lowering of taxes and is offering us a choice of two options. Since the second one seems unpalatable, he or she assumes we will lend our support to the policy. Taking the best possible reading of this situation, we might have the following:
P1: We can lower taxes or the country can go to the devil;
P2: No other options exist;
C: Therefore, a person not agreeing with lowering taxes is content to see the country fall apart.​
Even this does not precisely address the statement as given; for instance, we could hold no opinion at all on the matter, or be insufficiently informed to do so sensibly. These are alternatives, so the choice given is a false dilemma. In the above formulation we could challenge P2, since it seems unlikely that only one policy has been proposed. A single alternative would again make the choice a false dilemma. As before, this is a fallacy of presumption.
http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#false_dilemma
Also Known as: Black & White Thinking. Description of False Dilemma


A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":
  1. Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
  2. Claim Y is false.
  3. Therefore claim X is true.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. That this is the case is made clear by the following example:
  1. Either 1+1=4 or 1+1=12.
  2. It is not the case that 1+1=4.
  3. Therefore 1+1=12.
In cases in which the two options are, in fact, the only two options, this line of reasoning is not fallacious. For example:
  1. Bill is dead or he is alive.
  2. Bill is not dead.
  3. Therefore Bill is alive.
Examples of False Dilemma

  1. Senator Jill: "We'll have to cut education funding this year."
    Senator Bill: "Why?"
    Senator Jill: "Well, either we cut the social programs or we live with a huge deficit and we can't live with the deficit."
  2. Bill: "Jill and I both support having prayer in public schools."
    Jill: "Hey, I never said that!"
    Bill: "You're not an atheist are you Jill?"
  3. "Look, you are going to have to make up your mind. Either you decide that you can afford this stereo, or you decide you are going to do without music for a while."
  1. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html
The logical fallacy of false dilemma—also known as false dichotomy, falsified dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, black and white thinking, false correlative, either/or fallacy and bifurcation—involves a situation in which two alternative points of view are held to be the only options, when in reality there exist one or more other options which have not been considered. The two alternatives presented are often, though not always, the two extreme points on some spectrum. Instead of such extreme simplification and wishful thinking, considering the whole spectrum, as in fuzzy logic, may be more appropriate.
The false dilemma fallacy refers to misuse of the or operator. For another misuse of "or", see the false choice fallacy. For misuse of the and operator, see package-deal fallacy.
A false dilemma may not necessarily be limited to two choices; it may involve three possibilities, in which case it is known as a trifurcation, or more, in which case the dilemma may be more the result of accidental omission than deliberate intent.
Contents

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[edit] Examples

"Mark is late for work. Either his car has broken down, or he has overslept. We telephoned and learned he isn't at home, so his car must have broken down." This argument is a false dilemma, because there are many other reasons why Mark may have been late for work (he might have decided to quit his job unannounced, he might have been arrested for traffic offences, he might have died, and so on). If it were somehow proven that there were no other possibilities than those presented in the initial dichotomy, then the logic would be sound. But until then, the argument is fallacious.
False dilemmas are also common in politics. They are often hidden in rhetorical questions, and then become akin to the fallacy of many questions, as in:
Will you re-elect the ruling party, or face nuclear holocaust? Are you with us, or with the forces of racism and oppression? Are you a Republican or are you a Democrat? ...or they can be done as statements of fact:
My opponent voted against the public schools spending bill. He must think educating our children is not important. Nobody wins unless everybody wins. In our seeking for economic and political progress, we all go up - or else we all go down. Violent gangs are running amok on the streets. Therefore, we must increase police enforcement or let them run loose. If you're not first you're last.
[edit] Legal implications

During legal battles in the creation-evolution controversy in the United States, the dichotomy between creationism and the theory of evolution has been noted as another instance of false dilemma and also termed a contrived dualism.
See, for example, the 2005 opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, where Judge John E. Jones III writes "ID (intelligent design) is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed “contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy of the two model approach” and that “n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in support of creation science.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
False Dilemma: A type of fallacious argument in which too few optional ways forward are presented for consideration, in an attempt to put across a "black or white" choice where such a choice is not strictly speaking justified. To ignore options, either through lack of due forethought or Machiavellian intention. Both forms are in widespread use, and both are surprisingly effective [depressingly so, indeed, for it says a lot about the critical faculties of the public at large]. Example: TO FOLLOW.
http://www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/rational-argument-glossary.html
 
Having seen this clip when it was first released, I have had 24 hours to distill what I think is its significance

It demonstrates that mainstream news do not really scrutinize information they receive before broadcast. It highlights how easy it would be for a small number centralized news agencies to misinform hundreds of mainstream news channels.

It proves (almost categorically) that people on the ground KNEW that the building was going to entirely collapse in a half hour time frame (along with the footage of the firefighters warning "get back, that building is about to blow up/Coming down"

so...

The NIST report must therefore prove that ground workers could tell (despite having no historical precident and no real way to assess the internal structure) that the building would entirely collapse in a dramatic, clean and sudden fashion within a half hour time-frame. Do the sources that claim this damage, put an sudden and complete collapse in that time frame?

If not, the only other explanation that would account for such fore-knowledge and conviction would be demolition.
 
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I was speculating. I really didnt believe the CD theories until this video. It is now patently clear that wtc7 was demolished. I do not believe the firefighters were involved in any 911 plot. What is unclear about my position?

Impossible.

The FDNY knew it would collapse.

If there was a demolition then they clearly knew about it.
 
Having seen this clip when it was first released, I have had 24 hours to distill what I think is its significance

It demonstrates that mainstream news do not really scrutinize information they receive before broadcast. It highlights how easy it would be for a small number centralized news agencies to misinform hundreds of mainstream news channels.

It proves (almost categorically) that people on the ground KNEW that the building was going to entirely collapse in a half hour time frame (along with the footage of the firefighters warning "get back, that building is about to blow up/Coming down"

so...

The NIST report must therefore prove that ground workers could tell (despite having no historical precident and no real way to assess the internal structure) that the building would entirely collapse in a dramatic, clean and sudden fashion within a half hour time-frame. Do the sources that claim this damage, put an sudden and complete collapse in that time frame?

If not, the only other explanation that would account for such fore-knowledge and conviction would be demolition.

That post is one big example of post hoc rationalization and why it is not logically sound reasoning.

Additionally, please provide evidence of:
1) "no historical precident"
2) "no real way to assess the internal structure"
3) "would entirely collapse"
 
Having seen this clip when it was first released, I have had 24 hours to distill what I think is its significance

It demonstrates that mainstream news do not really scrutinize information they receive before broadcast. It highlights how easy it would be for a small number centralized news agencies to misinform hundreds of mainstream news channels.

It proves (almost categorically) that people on the ground KNEW that the building was going to entirely collapse in a half hour time frame (along with the footage of the firefighters warning "get back, that building is about to blow up/Coming down"

so...

The NIST report must therefore prove that ground workers could tell (despite having no historical precident and no real way to assess the internal structure) that the building would entirely collapse in a dramatic, clean and sudden fashion within a half hour time-frame. There are sources that claim damage, but do they put an immanent and complete collapse in that time frame?

If they knew the building was going to entirely collapse in a "clean" fashion, why would they "get back"?:rolleyes:
 
Having seen this clip when it was first released, I have had 24 hours to distill what I think is its significance

It demonstrates that mainstream news do not really scrutinize information they receive before broadcast. It highlights how easy it would be for a small number centralized news agencies to misinform hundreds of mainstream news channels.

It proves (almost categorically) that people on the ground KNEW that the building was going to entirely collapse in a half hour time frame (along with the footage of the firefighters warning "get back, that building is about to blow up/Coming down"

so...

The NIST report must therefore prove that ground workers could tell (despite having no historical precident and no real way to assess the internal structure) that the building would entirely collapse in a dramatic, clean and sudden fashion within a half hour time-frame. Do the sources that claim this damage, put an sudden and complete collapse in that time frame?

If not, the only other explanation that would account for such fore-knowledge and conviction would be demolition.
Of course. Case closed.

You only forgot the fact that since it was the BBC reporting this, it has to be true without question. It's those accents the Brits have. Anyone knows that when you say something with a British accent, and you also happen to be British while speaking with that accent - then every single thing uttered under those conditions must be true. Just as a British person is about to lie, the lie is redirected through the language center of the Brit's brain, the accent is blended into it, the untrue parts of the utterance are charcoal-filtered out and discarded, and the cleansed utterance is then sent down to the windpipe for vocalization. It's not enough to learn a British dialect such as a North Country accent or Cockney accent or what have you. Doesn't count. You actually have to BE British at the same time.

And in this case, all stringent conditions were met.

9/11 Was An Inside Job!!!1111one!!!eleventy!!!!11!!
 
Impossible.

The FDNY knew it would collapse.

If there was a demolition then they clearly knew about it.

according to the twoofers, Yes, the firefighters did know about the collapse during that day. Heres how most of them claim it went.

Mayor Giuliani moved the emergency response command team and operation out of BLDG7, before the attacks, for a drill. This emergency response command team was commanding FDNY, NYPD, and the first response teams during the crises. 3 NWO agents were at the top levels of this team getting orders from major HQ and when it was received that 7 was going to be brought down, so they radio'ed the FDNY and NYPD that 7 was coming down and to get back, AT THAT POINT FDNY KNEW IT WOULD COLLAPSE, but just because they knew it would collapse because superiors told them so, doesn't mean they were involved in making it happen, they were just following orders.
 
Twoofers get themselves into this ugly jam all the time.

They believe WTC7 was a demolition but they don't want to blame the FDNY for being involved or covering it up. Poor taste what with 350 FDNY being killed that day, not to mention the theory being a tad stupid.

Only problem is that the FDNY was clearly aware that WTC7 would collapse.

So how does one pose the demolition theory without implicating the FDNY in either the execution or coverup?

Right - you can't.

Although Aphelion sure is trying hard yet failing miserably.
 

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