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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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But they don't compete with the bears.....

Black bears, yeah; they eat the same stuff. Look up Grizzy habitat, willya?

"And NUH is the letter I use to spell Nutches,
Who live in small caves, known as Niches, for hutches.
These Nutches have troubles, the biggest of which is
The fact there are many more Nutches than Niches.
Each Nutch in a Nich knows that some other Nutch
Would like to move into his Nich very much.
So each Nutch in a Nich has to watch that small Nich
Or Nutches who haven't got Niches will snitch."

Dr. Seuss - On Beyond Zebra (1955)
 
DY once thought bigfeet were real!

So what?

I once believed in bigfeet, the Loch Ness monster, UFOs, spirits, etc. So, we have at least two evil bigfoot heretics here...
Angelus0006.jpg

DY, what color will be the sanbenito you will wear in the day we will be taken to the Bigfoot Inquisition bonfire? Mine will be green.

Now, that was a very lowly debate tactics... A poor attempt of poisoning the well. And it backfired...
 
The argument that "we should not expect to find Bigfoot's bones" is an old one, but one that must be maintained, as of course Bigfoot's bones continue to elude us. Even in his new book, Jeff Meldrum has to trot out this old argument and defend it.

I had my "no-bones" epiphany this last summer. What you see here is the THIRD set of bones that I've personally found in the wilderness, and, truth be told, I have very little real wilderness experience. Amazingly enough, the second bone I found was in Ape Canyon! Sadly, I think it was the rib bone of a cervid...

I honestly have to wonder about the genuine Bigfoot "field researcher" people. Do they really NOT find bones? If not, why not? If they do find bones like I have, do they simply not report it because it might confute the mantra laid down by Grover Krantz?

IMG_3978.jpg
 
Is anyone claiming there are no bones of anything ever? I know I'm not.

They're just few and far between even for common animals.
 
DY once thought bigfeet were real!

So what?

I once believed in bigfeet, the Loch Ness monster, UFOs, spirits, etc. So, we have at least two evil bigfoot heretics here...
[qimg]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/Angelus0006.jpg[/qimg]
DY, what color will be the sanbenito you will wear in the day we will be taken to the Bigfoot Inquisition bonfire? Mine will be green.

Now, that was a very lowly debate tactics... A poor attempt of poisoning the well. And it backfired...
Oo! Oh yes! Me, too. Me, too! I didn't just believe in the existence of sasquatches, I was sure of it. Um, for my Bigfoot Inquisition bonfire sanbenito I would like one that is blue and preferably flame-retardant with the logo 'I'm with stupid' on it.

So let me get this straight for the record, if you're a skeptic turned proponent you're an intelligent, outside the box thinker? If you are the same but with a Ph.D in something that could be applied to bigfoot then you are star of the next conference where your picture holding casts will be shot by doting fans?

If you are proponent turned skeptic you are...?
 
Grizzly habitat isn't what sasquatches seem to prefer.

Black bears, yeah; they eat the same stuff. Look up Grizzy habitat, willya?
How about 'The Fortress of the Bear', Admiralty Island?
Highest density of brown bears in North America with nearly three of them for every human and reported sasquatch. Sasquatch don't seem to mind the company there.
 
I object to the stereotyping that goes on on this board, and I'm glad some people have seen through it. I can only hope a few of you will grow up (if you don't get waylaid in an alley first for pulling the attitude in the wrong place at the wrong time).

The thing about stereotyping is that some people fit the token description perfectly. There is such a thing as a square peg and a square hole. Smart people can work around the stereotyping stigma and get right to the point. When you have someone who really does match a stereotype, you can drop that term and simply use them as an example or something like a "type specimen" that correlates with its description. Any real cougar is a functional stereotype of cougars.

Bigfoot skeptics and believers can be stereotyped in many ways. But each is likely to reject or argue against stereotyping done towards them. We all eventually learn that accurate descriptions are done when evaluating something other than yourself. Describing you or me is best done by somebody other than us.

Parcher: I've spent time in the PNW wilderness on numerous occasions. I agree it's beautiful.

LAL: What part? (I'm glad to see you're not so insensitive you didn't notice.)

I'm a very sensitive, emotional and sentimental person. I feel it and others say those things about me.

I've spent a decent amount of time in various PNW areas. I've been something like obsessed with nature and animals ever since I could be (as soon as my eyes and brain let me). I've been to many other foreign locations, but I'm really quite fond of my North America and its fascinating biodiversity and physical beauty. If presented with a preference choice between being back in a Southeast Asian rainforest or that perfect Saskatchewan prairie - I could not easily decide. I'll take both of them with a Supersize fries and Coke please.

In the PNW I have visited coastal Northern California, coastal Oregon and inwards around Eugene, coastal Washington and the area around Vancouver. Farther eastward would include the Cascades, Revelstoke and the parks of Banff and Jasper. I've also been throughout all of the southern areas of the Canadian provinces west of Ontario, and all states west of the Mississippi.

I've gotten around a pretty good bit. The most time spent in foreign areas was in SE Asia and Central America (a month in both). Of course, I was there for the extreme biodiversity and cheap beer.
 
If you are proponent turned skeptic you are...?

Here.

Kitakaze: ...highest density of brown bears in North America with nearly three of them for every human and reported sasquatch. Sasquatch don't seem to mind the company there.

We already saw a picture of a bear that had been killed by a Bigfoot and tossed into a temporary river. They sometimes seem to mind the company.
 
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How about 'The Fortress of the Bear', Admiralty Island?
Highest density of brown bears in North America with nearly three of them for every human and reported sasquatch. Sasquatch don't seem to mind the company there.

Admiralty Island has nearly a million acres of old growth rainforest, alpine tundra, and coastline. There's no reason they'd have to be in the same habitat.

There are Grizzlies in Washington State. It has the highest sasquatch sighting rate in the country. The ranges needent overlap there either. The Grizzlies are in the northeastern part, sasquatches mostly in the west slopes of the Cascades.
 
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/tech/2007/feb/20/022002617.html

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) - Officials have confirmed the presence of a Canada lynx in Vermont for the first time in nearly 40 years. Wildlife biologists from Vermont and New Hampshire identified a set of lynx tracks in a state wildlife management area in Victory on Feb. 7. The Canada lynx is native to Vermont, but the population has always been small.

The last time a lynx was spotted in Vermont was in 1968.

"It is great to see this once-native species again in Vermont," said Paul Hamelin, a state wildlife biologist in St. Johnsbury. "There have been a few unconfirmed reports of lynx in Vermont's Northeast Kingdom in recent years, and we know they occur in Canada as well as in New Hampshire and Maine, so it wasn't a big surprise to find the tracks of this animal."
 
So let me get this straight for the record, if you're a skeptic turned proponent you're an intelligent, outside the box thinker? If you are the same but with a Ph.D in something that could be applied to bigfoot then you are star of the next conference where your picture holding casts will be shot by doting fans?

If you are proponent turned skeptic you are...?

Not alone.

This is actually the post (below) I was looking for when I came across the other.

It's been kind of a shock to see such a complete turnaround, from being willing to join in on the research effort to denegrating the people in in it. I don't know if the trip came off or not, but a research trip worked the other way for Dr. Fish. He went in sceptical and came out convinced by what he saw.


"Except for bark and roots, there's not much for a >300 lbs. animal to consume during the winter and early spring in the midwest or east. Bears avoid the problem by hibernating. Ungulates eat bark and pith...but the sign is always apparent. Huge primates tripping trees should be pretty noticable I would think."

post-1242-1155240307_thumb.jpg


http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=15004&st=450&p=334332&#entry334332

I've been looking for that photo for months; it isn't typical of some of the forests I've seen east of the Mississippi. This is more like it (when it snows in the Pisgah). Note the Rhododendron:

PNF_Winter_Forest_1_LG.jpg


Winter Hemlock Forest #1 Pisgah National Forest, North Carolina 2006

http://www.jerrygreerphotography.com/pnf_winter_forest_1.htm

It's much like Oregon, even to being a rainforest.



So, how did we get to the Inquisition?
 
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I think we've made it pretty clear Grizzly and sasquatch territories don't tend to overlap. Dr. Daegling made a big deal out of finding a bear skull in eastern Oregon, but conditions are different there. Piles of elk bones can be found where it's drier, but there's hardly a femur on the western slopes of the Cascades, despite an abundant elk population.

There just aren't many people getting off the roads and trails and into the really rugged country, so even if a sas corpse were lying out in the open it's unlikely anyone would find it before the scavenger system did.

Everything about Bigfeetsus is just so damn conveeeeeeenient!!

Their territories don't overlap with grizzlies

They live in a place not condusive to finding any bones (very tidy)

They do most of their business at night (nocturnal apes?!?!)

They are crafty and elusive enough to never get filmed up close doing anything other than going for a stroll.

Their DNA is virtually undetectable

They know how to NOT leave feetprints (by leaving Arseprints!?!?)

what am I forgetting here?
 
The thing about stereotyping is that some people fit the token description perfectly.

I don't think I've ever met anyone like that. If I insist on stereotyping someone after I get to know them, the fault would be with me, not the person.

I've spent a decent amount of time in various PNW areas.

And in that time did you see areas capable of supporting an omnivorous primate (other than man)?
 
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Everything about Bigfeetsus is just so damn conveeeeeeenient!!

Their territories don't overlap with grizzlies

They live in a place not condusive to finding any bones (very tidy)

They do most of their business at night (nocturnal apes?!?!)

They are crafty and elusive enough to never get filmed up close doing anything other than going for a stroll.

Their DNA is virtually undetectable

They know how to NOT leave feetprints (by leaving Arseprints!?!?)

what am I forgetting here?

Not much.

Unless footprints are deliberately planted (Chimpanzees do this), they would tend not to show just because that's the nature of the terrain.

Deliberate planting may have happened here:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/sbs/somer87.htm

(That would be the same Lonnie Somers of the artificial hair incident.)

Thom Powell mentioned a juvenile doing a belly crawl approaching a fruit pile(already discussed). Something like that, coupled with the hard ground around the mudhole, would explain why there were no clear footprints (I assume that's what you meant). It could just be a normal way of approaching something strange. The expedition was hoping to get clear footprints; that was one of the goals (not met).

I don't think elusiveness explains the lack of NG quality photos. Most people having encounters just weren't carrying a camera (or were too frightened to use one or they got a "blobsquatch").

Most apes live in places not conducive to finding bones. Is that convenient too?

There hasn't been an undeteriorated chunk of DNA suitable for testing obtained yet so how can you say it's undetectable?
 
Oh, I see the Bigfoot Inquisitors will have enough heretics to make a hell of a barbecue...

In the meanwhile, the repetition of excuses continue...

Such as the place where they live are not suitable for remain preservation...
From
http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/anatomy/Brazil.htm
...snip...The skull of Caipora bambuiorum, one of the two complete primate skeletons recovered from Toca da Boa Vista. It closely resembles the living spider monkey, but is more than twice the size
...snip...
crania of Protopithecus (left) and Caipora (right), both from Toca da Boa Vista. They resemble living South American monkeys that inhabit the top levels of the tropical forest canopy, but they were significantly larger ...snip...
Boldings are mine.
Sweep it under the rug, using the following:
-Its a monkey, not an ape
-Its from South America, and not PNW
-No limestone caves at PNW
-Preservation odds are very small
-blah blah blah blah

Note:
I know some of the folks pictured that site, made some caving with them, my wife helped them "digging" fossils there, so be carefull not to embarass yourself when trying to addressing it.
 
Soooo.......after reading this thread I think Mad Hom has done a great job of summing everything up. There are a few other items that I think we can add to the list.

They are aggressive, intelligent animals that bash other animals with rocks, and yet are deathly afraid of any human with a camera. Humans without a camera will be approached if they are sleeping in their cars or on a Bigfoot hunt without a camera. The exception to this rule seems to be if someone is filming a Bigfoot movie, when they will appear but only if the camera only has a few minutes of film left.

Unlike all other primates, they leave no evidence of their habitat and no bones when they die.

For some reason they are afraid of bears and only live in areas where bear bones are never found.

They leave footprints in areas humans live, yet appear to go extinct or migrate whenever people go on expeditions with cameras. if a Bigfoot is spotted, they seem to disappear from the area where the search takes place. Not to worry, they can be found in the remote area just over the horizon where people are currently not living.

They have been widespread enough to become a part of multiple civilizations customs and myths. Every remote tribe has encountered one, but out of those thousands of encounters not a single one has managed to preserve a single bone, skull or hide.

Despite being widespread they have managed to avoid bears. Damn those bears.

No Bigfoot has ever died from an accident or act of violence. They may have perished in large numbers due to disease, but when they get sick they hide themselves so well that nobody can find their remains.

They seem not to have the same need for a sizable breeding population that other primates do. 3 or 4 will do rather than thousands.

Anything else left out? The more I learn about these Bigfeet critters the more interesting they are. If they weren't so afraid of people with camera they could revolutionize everything we know about biology. Shine on you crazy Bigfoot people! Shine on!
 
I don't think I've ever met anyone like that. If I insist on stereotyping someone after I get to know them, the fault would be with me, not the person.

But if you accurately describe someone it's not a stereotype per se - it's a description. You could say that it is a stereotype of that person, but if it's accurate then the stereotype is indistinguishable from the description. I'm not sure that any debate about stereotyping is really relevant to the Bigfoot "question". It seems like just another diversion. It's very close to being one of those stupid semantic games that Baby Dangling plays.

And in that time did you see areas capable of supporting an omnivorous primate (other than man)?

In spite of being educated and familiar with wildlife ecology, I'm not fully qualified to give a definitive answer. FWIW, my own feeling is that the PNW could support some kind of wild primate(s). If a Bigfoot truly is something like a big bear (ecologically), I think it would work. Being omnivorous, opportunistic and intelligent would seem to be the right recipe. But those three criteria should always be expected to reveal themselves as adaptations formed by natural selection. The extreme fear of humans displayed by Bigfoot cannot be accounted for by natural selection (or at least the way that we think about NS). We don't kill them and Indians didn't either. What has been killing them to cause this exaggerated flight instinct? Is it the bears that have been killing them all along? If it is, then why are they so afraid of us? We must look like fragile stick beings to them. It's totally meaningless that the stick figure might be carrying a gun - because we never use those on Bigfoot.

Yeah, I guess Bigfoots could live in the PNW. I can say the same with equal (unqualified) confidence that the PNW could support Mastodons and Smilodons. But I think that it doesn't contain those animals. As it is now, we've got crytozoologists running around proposing and defending the existence of living dinosaurs in the Congo. There is an important distinction between an ecosystem that could support a species and does - and one that could support a species but doesn't. I think Florida could support wild leopards, but they just aren't there. Argentina could support grizzly bears, but they just aren't there.

When skeptics take a good hard look at what Bigfooters are doing, it's a very ugly scene. Think of it as a predator/prey relationship between skeptics and believers. The prey (believer) is constantly watching the predator (skeptic) and changes its behavior so as to not get caught and eaten alive. The Bigfoot myth and the "stereotype" description of Bigfoot evolves over time. The goal of the believer is to adapt their description of Bigfoot in any way that might possibly satisfy a skeptic. By picking and choosing from the variety of already proposed descriptions of Bigfoot, a believer can customize their own personal description of BF with the goal being to try to stymie the skeptic. They will even do it right in front of a skeptic's eyes, as if they were a chameleon. Whether anyone realizes it or not, Lu can use the factual information and skeptical logic she sees in this forum to change the way she talks about Bigfoot. We can all see that this is a cultural game and has little to do with Bigfoot as a real animal. It's not about confirming Bigfoot, it's about beating the skeptics at the game. I think that applies to anyone who is actively perpetuating a myth as reality. Those people all act the same in fundamentally important ways. On JREF they get called woos. If you watch them closely, they look like desperate beleagered two-bit purse snatchers looking for respect.
 
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