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Is the Qu'ran from the true God?

Why, in fact, thinking about it the Qu'ran must be true. God is so great that no man could possibly withstand His presence. The Bible must either lie or be corrupted. Only the Qu'ran gets it right. The prophet was visited by angels. Men, as corrupt as we are, could not possibly have interacted directly with God. Thanks PeaceCrusader. I don't think I would ever have been able to see the truth if you hadn't asked these questions.
 
No, really, it must be so. Since Adam ate of the fruit we are all corrupt. The reason for Jesus' sacrifice is that we are completely and utterly separated from God because of this corruption. So God could not have spoken to any human being since the Fall (or there is/was no utter separation). Since the Bible says that God did speak to humans, then either the theology is wrong, the Bible is wrong, or Jesus didn't need to die. We could be near God simply by His choosing it, even if we are murderers.

Ergo, Islam is the one true religion. Time for a mass conversion.
 
kmortis said:
2) If there is a god, and it is the Judeo-Christian one, this Bible of yours was written in a few languages. None of which were English. So saying that the KJV is the one that is "nearer the truth" is just silly. It doesn't follow by any strech of the imagination.
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Actually, there are some fundamentalists that believe that the Holy Spirit descended on the translators of the KJV of the Bible and thus it is literally "nearer the truth" than any other version of the Bible. That being said, I'll agree with you that the concept is silly. I just wanted to point out that it is not beyond "any stretch of the imagination."

As for PeaceCrusader, I am baffled as to why a (apparently fundamentalist) Christian would come to a skeptic board to use logic to attack Islam. PC, why do you think Christianity will stand up to the same logic that is used to knock down Islam?
 
Morwen said:

Objectively? Without resorting to "faith" or circular reasoning? So that even non-believers could make the distinction?

You can't.
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Oh, no, no. We do it by the words of the Bible. We judge by its fruits. And since we now see logically that either the Bible is wrong, Christian theology is wrong, or Jesus needn't have died for our sins, then it is clear by its fruits that Christianity cannot be the one true faith. I think we owe PC a great round of applause for showing us this by allowing us to work it out for ourselves. Clearly that must have been his intent.

Now where did I put that prayer rug............
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
Oh, no, no. We do it by the words of the Bible. We judge by its fruits. And since we now see logically that either the Bible is wrong, Christian theology is wrong, or Jesus needn't have died for our sins, then it is clear by its fruits that Christianity cannot be the one true faith. I think we owe PC a great round of applause for showing us this by allowing us to work it out for ourselves. Clearly that must have been his intent.

Now where did I put that prayer rug............
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So, did a global flood happen?

It's a simple question.

If the answer is no, then what do you think that means for the Qu'ran?

If yes, please provide -ANY- evidence for a global flood.

(That's what Muhammad get's for copying.)
 
PeaceCrusader said:
My Dear Fellowmen,

All Muslims are expected to believe the main doctrines of Islam consisting of five articles of faith. These are:
  • God. His name is Allah and is the supreme being of all. He is uncreated, without beginning or end. He created all.
  • Angels. Every person has two angels; one records his good deeds, and the other, his bad deeds. Jibreel (Gabriel) is the angel who brought the revelation of the Qu’ran to Muhammad.
  • Scripture. The four inspired books in Islam are the Taurat (Torah or the first five books of Moses), the Zaboor (Psalms of David), the Injeel (gospel message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament), and the Qu’ran. The Qu’ran supersedes the other books since it is the last and final revelation of Allah.
  • Prophets. Among the numerous prophets or messengers of Allah, the six greatest are Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.
  • Last Days. All people will be resurrected on the last day to be judged. Muslims will go to the Garden of Paradise, the Islamic heaven, and the rest will be tormented in hell. The Islamic heaven is a place of entertainment where men and their wives will be reclining in raised couches and shall have whatever they desire.
Is there anything in these doctrines not correct or not clear? If so, please point it out and explain.

Did the Lord God talk to His prophets?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible created Adam, and out of Adam’s rib, Eve. When they sinned by disobeying God, God drove them out from the garden of Eden. God talked to Adam. If Adam is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible told Noah to build an ark for He would destroy all flesh because of man’s wickedness. In Genesis 6:18 (KJV), God said, “But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.” God spared these eight persons and the living things in the ark when God flooded the earth. God talked to Noah. If Noah is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made a covenant with Abram (later called Abraham): “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18, KJV). Notice that God said, “Unto thy seed.” Singular. Only one. Abraham had two children: Ishmael, the descendants of whom are Muhammad and the Arabs and the Muslims; and Isaac, the descendants of whom are the Jews and Jesus. Who is this seed that God was referring to? God talked to Abraham. If Abraham is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made Moses to lead in the liberation of the Israelites from about 400 years of bondage in Egypt. God talked to Moses. If Moses is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” during Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:21) and in the transfiguration, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him” (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35). God said of this prophet Jesus, “hear ye him.” If Jesus is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why He is so?

The Holy Bible does not mention the name Muhammad. He is supposedly the last and final prophet although God did not talk to him. The Qu’ran was revealed to him by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Why is it that it is not God who directly reveal the Qu’ran to him? If Muhammad is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”
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If you mean by that, are they both fictional characters derived from old myths and stories which for some unimaginable reason have millions of followers who do not understand they are imagionary - then yes, they are similar constructs of fantasy. If you mean anything else - and I suspect you do - it's a pointless discussion as you choose to believe but there is zero (0, none) evidence of an actual being/beings of that type.
think they are real
 
Oh, um, well, clearly Muhammed only meant the flood in a metaphorical sense. Yeah, metaphorical. That's the ticket. Part of the poetry and all. Yeah.

It's true!*



*for a given value of truth
 
PeaceCrusader said:
Dear Rufo and Fellow Forumers,


I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?


You claim that the Qu’ran has not been changed through the ages. That may be true. Still in the original Arabic text I suppose after about 1600 years. But does that justify that it is from the true God? I am asking: why did the Lord God not reveal the Qu’ran directly to Muhammad? Why through an angel? Are you sure that that angel is angel Gabriel?

I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?

The Holy Bible may have “been edited and translated several times since it was first written” but does that mean that it is not from the Lord God? That is why the spirit we talk to recommended that we use the King James Version because it is, according to Him, nearer the truth.

Now, even if the Bible has been edited and changed, don’t you think that there is somebody who knows and can tell us which is correct and which is wrong (because of changes)? Do you know who that somebody is? FYI, He is the Holy Spirit who Jesus said that He would send after He departed. True enough, the Holy Spirit came and gave the 120 or so followers of Jesus who were waiting in a house in Jerusalem after Jesus ascended to Heaven at Mount Olivet the gift of speaking in tongues. That is why the disciples led by Peter was able to talk to the pilgrims who came to Jerusalem from different parts of the world in their own native language.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
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I, and most others here, have no trouble applying skepticism to the Koran. But we also apply the same skepticism to the Bible, and any other "divinely inspired" religious text.
 
PeaceCrusader said:
I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?
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He had learned to delegate by then.
 
I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!
 
Zep said:
I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!
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You're such a catty party-pooper. As has been mentioned previously in this thread, all the really cool and fun stuff in them holy books is metaphorical. Got it? :rolleyes:
 
Darat said:
I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage
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If my memory serves me, you are correct. However, I must disagree with those who would say that Islam developed independently of Judeo-Christian influence. It very clearly did not, and was treated early on as a Christianity-based cult. Islam is just 6th century Mormonism.
 
Dear SezMe and Fellow Forumers,

SezMe said:
What is an "Echo" in this context?
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I am just an echo, a sounding board, one who repeats or passes on what I heard from the Holy Spirit. The words of the Holy Spirit--His sermons, messages, prayers, proverbs, prophecies, poems--that you find in my website are His and not mine. I do not have that talent or ability to compose or say such things. They came from transcriptions of tape recordings of our sessions with the Holy Spirit.

I do not force anyone to believe in what I believe in. People may pick up from the Holy Spirit's messages what they think is good for them and discard or ignore anything evil, if any. I am not responsible for the salvation of one's soul. It is his. I am just sharing the good food that I tasted from the Holy Spirit. What He told us, "Food that is delicious should not be kept to oneself. Share it."

Did you know that I bought a second hand economy car for use in commuting to work about six months ago? Did you know that it is a Toyota Echo? Did you know that its registration plate number is 462 IDE? Did you know that IDE, I realized later, stands for "I Thee Echo"? Did you know that prior to this car, the registration number that I got for our previous family car was 240 ICD? Did you know that ICD stands for the equivalent text message "I see Thee"? Did you know that ICD also stands for the Latin "Iesus Christus Deus" or "Jesus Christ God"? Coincidences? There are plenty of "coincidences" in my life.

After I found out the significance of Echo, I included it with my signature of Peace Crusader as what you quoted. Because that is what I am--just an Echo of the Holy Spirit.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
Dear Zep and Fellow Forumers,

Zep said:
I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!
Click to expand...

I do not know the story about Muhammad's ascension to heaven. Was there really a flying horse that took him to heaven? What time did the ascension happen? Were there witnesses?

For forty days after the resurrection of Jesus from His three-days-and-three-nights burial in the tomb, His disciples saw Him alive and He spoke about the kingdom of God. The story of the ascension of Jesus is stated in Act 1 of the Holy Bible. On the day of His ascension, He commanded them not to depart from Jersualem, but to wait for the promise of their baptism with the Holy Spirit. After He had spoken, "while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'" (Holy Bible, New King James, Acts 1:9-11)

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, there were witnesses and it was during daytime. He floated up towards Heaven until a cloud received Him and He became out of sight. Please compare this with that of Muhammad's.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
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