• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Yet another Free Will Thread

While that seems to be true from observation, this is beyond what we can say with absolute certainty.

Is there anything a posteriori that one could claim with absolute certainty?
I see this a non-point. When working with our tool of learning (ie. induction), we can only learn by assumption of causality. We cannot comprehend the non-causal, nor provide evidence for it. There is no scientific test that can confirm non-causality.


Not so. Even if we accept the previous premise, there could still exist an entity with physical and non-physical elements.

This would be a conflation of two entities, neither of which would be able to interact with the other.


There's no evidence that most of us here find credible that such an entity exists, but it is a matter of observation, not logic, that says they cannot exist.

It's a deduction based on premises that are inductively gathered. Basically like everything else.

If free will is real, I have concluded that there must be a non-physical mind, and it must be able to interact with, and influence, the physical world. Sadly, try as I might, I can't find evidence of such a mind. Yet, I wish to believe it must exist, because I wish to believe in free will. If I choose to do so, then the worst I could be accused of is making an irrational choice, but it was no choice at all, because I had no free will to make it.

But I think you are saying you wish to believe in a nonsenical variety of free will, which is the point of the OP. You don't want a will that is without causality. It would be random, and thus, not provide us with any control whatsoever. Is that appealing?
 
But I think you are saying you wish to believe in a nonsenical variety of free will, which is the point of the OP. You don't want a will that is without causality. It would be random, and thus, not provide us with any control whatsoever. Is that appealing?

It's not nonsensical. It's perfectly logical. There just isn't any credible evidence it exists. Also, it would not be random. Nor would it be causal, in the sense of being pre-determined from prior states.

I've been dabbling in readings about quantum mechanics lately. There are some interpretations floating around about what it means when the wave function collapses. You have the Copenhagen interpretation, and the Many Worlds interpretation, and some information theoretic interpretations, and maybe some others. (I'm only dabbling, after all. I don't really know the whole story.) I wish to add the Free Will interpretation, in which the observer chooses, yes chooses, the states in which the particles/waves will enter from among the possibilities.

Of course, there's no evidence for this, but I'm not absolutely certain there's evidence against it, either.
 
It's not nonsensical. It's perfectly logical. There just isn't any credible evidence it exists. Also, it would not be random. Nor would it be causal, in the sense of being pre-determined from prior states.


Explain to me how a non-deterministic will could possibly function.
 
His point is that he's a compatibilist. How are you showing him to be incorrect?
When you ask it that way, I suppose that what I am saying is that compatiblism is not a rational equivalent to "free will". A free will indistinguishable from determinism, only there as long as we keep Occam otherwise occupied, is not the free will that inspires philosophers and libertarians.
 
When you ask it that way, I suppose that what I am saying is that compatiblism is not a rational equivalent to "free will". A free will indistinguishable from determinism, only there as long as we keep Occam otherwise occupied, is not the free will that inspires philosophers and libertarians.


There are at least half a dozen different ideas of free will. Which one is the real one that gets the quotation marks?
 
Explain to me how a non-deterministic will could possibly function.

I was about to explain, but then I think I got your question.

I am postulating that the physical world is not deterministic, and that it can in fact be influenced by the "mind". In that way, the condition of the physical world does not determine entirely our mental states. In fact, our mental states, the state of the mind and the choices made by the mind, actually influence the brain and the physical world.

However, I suspect you are saying that this just pushes the problem up a level. The mind would still make decisions based on state and input. Either there is a random element, in which case it doesn't seem free, or there isn't, in which case it obeys some sort of other laws than the physical, but it is still bound by them.

If that's what you are saying,....you might have a point. I'll have to think about it. (And perhaps "have to" really is the appropriate phrase.)

Even then, if I could persuade myself that this is true, it seems more palatable to think I was bound by my nature in some sort of spiritual or even logical set of laws, rather than by the forces of gravity and electromagnetism.

If that's not what you're thinking, please explain your question further.
 
I was about to explain, but then I think I got your question.

I am postulating that the physical world is not deterministic, and that it can in fact be influenced by the "mind". In that way, the condition of the physical world does not determine entirely our mental states. In fact, our mental states, the state of the mind and the choices made by the mind, actually influence the brain and the physical world.

However, I suspect you are saying that this just pushes the problem up a level. The mind would still make decisions based on state and input. Either there is a random element, in which case it doesn't seem free, or there isn't, in which case it obeys some sort of other laws than the physical, but it is still bound by them.

If that's what you are saying,....you might have a point. I'll have to think about it. (And perhaps "have to" really is the appropriate phrase.)

Even then, if I could persuade myself that this is true, it seems more palatable to think I was bound by my nature in some sort of spiritual or even logical set of laws, rather than by the forces of gravity and electromagnetism.

If that's not what you're thinking, please explain your question further.


Yes, it seems that you are sort of understanding the way in which I'm approaching the question.

We really can't imagine a non-causal system, and even if we can, it doesn't actually seem FREE to us, but reasonless. And this gets back to the point of the OP.

A free will could choose to drink poison instead of Pepsi, but who the heck really wants that?
 
Yes, it seems that you are sort of understanding the way in which I'm approaching the question.

We really can't imagine a non-causal system, and even if we can, it doesn't actually seem FREE to us, but reasonless. And this gets back to the point of the OP.

A free will could choose to drink poison instead of Pepsi, but who the heck really wants that?

The more I read and watch your ideas on "free will"- the more I think we actually agree, and I'm puzzled by how we disagreed vehemently in the past...
 
Yes, it seems that you are sort of understanding the way in which I'm approaching the question.

We really can't imagine a non-causal system, and even if we can, it doesn't actually seem FREE to us, but reasonless. And this gets back to the point of the OP.

A free will could choose to drink poison instead of Pepsi, but who the heck really wants that?


But that is not the way that libertarians view their free will. They include reason. That is part of the magic. So, in their way of thinking of it, there is true freedom of will that includes reason but is not completely bound by it -- instead we use reason to make decisions. We could make unreasonable decisions but generally do not. The problem with this is that we have clear evidence of our reasoning ability being influenced by deterministic processes as anyone with a pint of bourbon in them can tell you. Well, the next day possibly. Or a railroad tamping rod thrust through their frontal lobes.

So I don't think we can say that libertarian free will acts without reason. By definition it doesn't. The issue is not that it is impossible to conceive. After all people made complete sense of it for millenia. The problem is that this idea contradicts what we know empirically.

So the situation we come upon if we accept the deterministic processes that account for some of our decisions and want to propose that we also have libertarian free will is that we have two different decision making processes that could come into conflict. So we should see ourselves making decisions that we didn't make (if "we" are the self that makes free decisions in a libertarian free will sense).

One solution to Meadmaker's dilemma is to go with idealism. If you want libertarian free will (and particularly a free will that collapses quantum wave functions) then we can certainly posit a single Mind that accounts for all of reality. The problem then becomes that our minds are not free in the way that we want to view them. We, as individual entities, couldn't possibly exist. Instead, we would be expressions of the universal Mind -- only it would be free, since there is nothing else. So the morality problem would re-emerge in such a system. We could also not use our way of thinking to "prove" the existence of this Mind. The cogito might lead us to the knowledge that something thinks (or thinking happens), but our type of thinking is clearly not the same as the Mind (though in a way it would have to be since we are that Mind in action). We can't create realities with our minds. But the Mind can. Idealism doesn't make complete sense to me. That's why I don't call myself an idealist.

The other option is to become a dualist with all the attendant problems.
 
Or a railroad tamping rod thrust through their frontal lobes.

I first heard of that guy over 20 years ago, in a forum vaguely like this one. (On the Plato system at the University of Illinois.) That story was quite influential in me deciding that free will is an illusion.

One solution to Meadmaker's dilemma is to go with idealism. If you want libertarian free will (and particularly a free will that collapses quantum wave functions) then we can certainly posit a single Mind that accounts for all of reality. The problem then becomes that our minds are not free in the way that we want to view them. We, as individual entities, couldn't possibly exist. Instead, we would be expressions of the universal Mind -- only it would be free, since there is nothing else. So the morality problem would re-emerge in such a system. We could also not use our way of thinking to "prove" the existence of this Mind. The cogito might lead us to the knowledge that something thinks (or thinking happens), but our type of thinking is clearly not the same as the Mind (though in a way it would have to be since we are that Mind in action). We can't create realities with our minds. But the Mind can. Idealism doesn't make complete sense to me. That's why I don't call myself an idealist.

For what it's worth, this strikes me as quite Buddhist. They would have no problem with saying that we, as individual entities, do not exist. In fact, recognizing that is part of the program. Once you grasp the anatta, Nibanna here we come!

Speaking of that universal mind and the thing that collapses wave functions, what reawakened this concept in my brain (or mind?) was reading a book on the origins of the universe. So "why" did the Big Bang happen? There it is, the entire universe, not really existing, and then "pop" out pops the universe. 10**-30 seconds later (or thereabouts), there's more matter than anti-matter. Why? Someone suggested that before the Big Bang (and I know that there was no "before", but language does have its limits) maybe there was just a great wave function expressing all possible universes, and it just happened to pop out this one. OK, fine. But why? What caused this mega-wave function to collapse into reality? It occurred to me that wave functions collapse....when they are observed.

Hmmm.....Nah.
 
Meadmaker,

An interesting thing about the line of thought (from monistic Idealism), though, is that the wave function would be Mind. It isn't as though Mind could be an outside observer that could collapse such a wave function but that both the wave function and Mind would be one and the same. Don't know what that would mean, but......

Personally I don't think we have much of a handle on reality and quantum physics should help us to realize that.

The other interesting bit, and this may just be me, is that all versions of monism seem to lead to the same conclusion -- the absence of self. Our view of ourselves as privileged beings is probably just wrong (similar to our view of free will, perhaps?). You don't actually need to undergo a mystical experience to realize that all is one in a monistic system, and, if this is the case, then we are simply part and parcel of the ONE, not privileged souls on a mission from God (except for possibly Jake and Elwood).

So where did the idea that we are individuals come from? Is it basic to us? Is it a social creation? There seems to be a whole cottage industry in the academy based on the idea of the Renaissance/Enlightenment creation of the human individual. It may well be a creation of a particular political/economic relation. Nietzsche wrote of it as a creation of democracy and bemoaned the fact that individual actors (meant as people who play parts created by themselves) undermine the possibility of social creation -- creating a great society (which seems to require us playing roles that are preassigned and we step into as in Medieval Europe).

The whole free will issue seems to me to be closely tied to the issue of individual identity and much of this seems tied to particular forms of Christianity where individual salvation is the key to the universe. I wonder, at times, what these supposedly thorny philosophical issue would look like if we were better able to see the world from a different perspective -- say from the perspective of not being selves in the first place.
 
.

The other interesting bit, and this may just be me, is that all versions of monism seem to lead to the same conclusion -- the absence of self.

I think that's true, and does seem to be connected with free will and the attitudes toward it.

I don't have much to say at this point, but thanks for the insights.
 
Yes, it seems that you are sort of understanding the way in which I'm approaching the question.

We really can't imagine a non-causal system, and even if we can, it doesn't actually seem FREE to us, but reasonless. And this gets back to the point of the OP.

A free will could choose to drink poison instead of Pepsi, but who the heck really wants that?

Interestingly (it's interesting because I'm not sure of the utility) I think we're quite capable of imagining non-causal systems. Someone with a little creativity can even imagine situation non-causal subdomains of otherwise reason-filled systems. In contrast, I think there are things which we can not meaningully imagine, such as infinity, or even large quantities, perhaps the threshold being quantities larger than we can contained in a maximally pixalated visual point of view.

But we can imagine things happening without causality relatively easily, in my opinion.
 
The other interesting bit, and this may just be me, is that all versions of monism seem to lead to the same conclusion -- the absence of self.
As an idealist, I'd agree "self" is just another bit of useless epiphenomenal froth -- bubbles on the larger bits of perceived froth we name physical.

That's where behaviorists jump the shark, trying to hook free-will to "self", then exclaiming "Look! It Isn't!" and pretending they've proved something.
 
Interestingly (it's interesting because I'm not sure of the utility) I think we're quite capable of imagining non-causal systems. Someone with a little creativity can even imagine situation non-causal subdomains of otherwise reason-filled systems. In contrast, I think there are things which we can not meaningully imagine, such as infinity, or even large quantities, perhaps the threshold being quantities larger than we can contained in a maximally pixalated visual point of view.

But we can imagine things happening without causality relatively easily, in my opinion.

Well, I may have been unclear there.

We can't imagine a non-random system of will which is non-causal and useful.

I can imagine things happening without rhyme or reason, but then science and learning become useless to me.
 
But that is not the way that libertarians view their free will. They include reason. That is part of the magic. So, in their way of thinking of it, there is true freedom of will that includes reason but is not completely bound by it -- instead we use reason to make decisions. We could make unreasonable decisions but generally do not. The problem with this is that we have clear evidence of our reasoning ability being influenced by deterministic processes as anyone with a pint of bourbon in them can tell you. Well, the next day possibly. Or a railroad tamping rod thrust through their frontal lobes.

I agree largely with what you said in your post.

However, let me try to explain why I think libertarian free will is non-sensical.

Surely reason is deterministic. If I can take the same input, use the same process and produce more than one result, surely reason is useless. More over, surely there is a cause for when I do not apply reason, or when my reason is imperfectly implimented. Whatever this concept of LFW is, it is seemingly a very naive attempt to rectify the understanding that humans have predispositions with the Christian doctrine that we can choose to obey or disobey God.
 
Surely reason is deterministic.

If I can take the same input, use the same process and produce more than one result, surely reason is useless. More over, surely there is a cause for when I do not apply reason, or when my reason is imperfectly implimented. Whatever this concept of LFW is, it is seemingly a very naive attempt to rectify the understanding that humans have predispositions with the Christian doctrine that we can choose to obey or disobey God.


That is where believers in libertarian free will differ from your perspective. They do not believe necessarily that reason is deterministic, or they did not think so for the longest time. But even if they do see reason as deterministic, they view the will as being able to choose between the deterministic dictates of reason and other alternatives. That does not make reason useless. Reason may well provide the best possible course of action, but they do not see us as bound by reason. From their perspective, reason may tell me not to embezzle that $40 million from my company's coffers but I still do it. From your perspective I would do it because I have another drive that overshadows reason, call it greed. From their perspective I have some perversity of the will that allows me to see another course and choose, call it greed.

So libertarian free willers can view reason as part of the will, in which case they would say that reason is not deterministic. Or they can see the will as independent of reason, in which case they can follow the dictates of reason or not. Reason is not useless, again, in that situation because it is simply the means by which we arrive at one possible outcome. It does not dictate the outcome. The will does that job. And the will is perceived as acausal.

Now, personally, I think this is silly. I can destroy your will with a properly placed incision in the anterior cingulate gyri (it needs to be bilateral). I think we have excellent empirical evidence that the will results from neural action (yes, that sentence relies on dualistic thinking because that's just our language). I cannot, on logical grounds, deny the possibility of free will. If it were that simple there would be no debate. The debate rages because we have ideas about freedom of the will and empirical evidence and a conceptual framework that contradicts it.

I see three possibilities. (1) The universe is dualistic/pluralistic and free will is possible for all thinking creatures (this includes all those forms of "neutral monism" that try to cheat free will out of their system); but this conception depends critically on linking acausal "stuff" with causal "stuff", and I don't see how to do that. (2) The universe is a monism and everything is deterministic with no possibility of free will -- the usual way of thinking about materialism. (3) The universe is a monism and the ground of existence provides the one possible free will -- this is usually expressed as a form of idealism, but I suppose could also be viewed as a form of pantheism if one thought that everything is divine. The only one of those that I think is very, very unlikely is the first. I see no way of determining which of the latter two are correct. In one way of looking at it number two is just a restricted view -- we look only within the universe and do not consider the ground of existence in the equation. But I don't see how we could really understand much about the ground of existence.

The other possibility, I guess, is Kane's view -- that we may think of free will in the wrong way. He conjoins the deterministic parts of "us", which includes reason, to non-deterministic happenings in the quantum world. In his way of thinking about it, if a non-deterministic event is used by deterministic forces (say, our reason, for example), then we cannot properly speak of the outcome as determined. That outcome would not be purely random and would not be purely determined. Would it, then, be free? I don't think so, but he does.


ETA:
Whatever this concept of LFW is, it is seemingly a very naive attempt to rectify the understanding that humans have predispositions with the Christian doctrine that we can choose to obey or disobey God.

With that I strongly agree, though there are exceptions. Most ways of looking at Christianity dictate a dualistic perspective that allows free will. There are few Christians who see problems with this perspective, though, like the philosophers who are also believers -- like Robert Kane among others -- try to work out a system that allows free will within a deterministic framework. They are driven to it by the problem of evil.

There are others, as well, who are not Christians who simply want to justify what they feel must be true because they seem to experience it all the time. Let's face it. We feel free. Probably because we don't think back to first principles in our daily life - how tedious would that be? When we get down to it, though, it seems pretty clear to me that nothing happens except on some sort of framework. I don't see how libertarian free will can make sense, but I am not willing to state categorically that there is no possibility of free will in the universe because I have no clue how the universe is constructed.

ETA again:

The other thing to keep in mind is that this construct we use -- causality -- may simply be a construct. We certainly bring it to the table as a way of making sense of the world whether or not it reflects reality. It is how our brains work. But if we take quantum mechanics seriously and take uncertainty seriously, then the universe is built on a much weirder foundation than we are seemingly willing to admit in most discussions. We say that at the macro level there is determinism and only at the very micro level is there indeterminancy. But this macro level determinism may simply be the way that we look at things, the only way that we can see them because of the way that we are made. None of this speaks to the problem of free will. I add it only as clarification to anything that I said above.
 
Last edited:
As an idealist, I'd agree "self" is just another bit of useless epiphenomenal froth -- bubbles on the larger bits of perceived froth we name physical.

That's where behaviorists jump the shark, trying to hook free-will to "self", then exclaiming "Look! It Isn't!" and pretending they've proved something.
Could you maybe flesh this out a bit? Doesn't sound like any behaviorism I am aware of...
 

Back
Top Bottom