Confronted Homeopaths, Did Not Go Well

[Loss Leader]

So, I was in my health food store today. I really do love that place - near my office and plenty of grass-fed beef, whole grain products, local produce, etc. - but I ventured over to the very large health supplement section. It was mostly vitamins and "natural" remedies that may or may not work to some untested degree or another. But they had an entire area dedicated to homeopathic medications.

This angered me.

They had a little health/supplement kiosk with a lady standing by to answer your questions. I picked up a bottle of homeopathic insomnia remedy and asked her if there would be any ill effects if I took the entire bottle at once.

And things deteriorated rapidly from there.

She informed me that I had asked a stupid question so I should only expect a stupid answer. She told me homeopathy works, that asprin is homeopathic (!) and that removing the items from the shelves was never going to happen. If I wasn't interested in purchasing the product, she said, I should go away.

A friendly store worker guy told me that I shouldn't take the whole bottle because I would get sick. I replied that, if he would give me the $9.00 bottle free, I would gladly take the entire thing right then and wait with him so he could see the effect.

And that's when I was told to leave the store.

So here's my series of questions: What's your story about confronting woos? What should I have done differently? What advice do you have about how (and even whether) to broach these subjects?

 

[Ducky]

Asprin is homeopathic?


News to me. I assume it would be news to asprin manufacturers too.

 

[The Atheist]

Try this:

Wrestle assistant to floor. Short-arm jab in the solar plexus to make him open his mouth. Tip in 50 ml of homeopathic remedyand let him learn for himself the results of overdose....

Nothing!

 

[SkipTic]

I tried email a couple of companies in Australia telling them that the efficacy of the Echinacea they sell had not been properly tested.

They replied with: the 2003 study i referred to (i think it was in the New England Journal) used alfalfa as placebo and, as seems to be a common defense, they did not use correct dosage in the study.

I haven't replied because unfortunately I know very little about law and/or medical science.


Basically, it seems hopeless. Unless the laws are changed so that they have to prove efficacy instead of using phrases like "may help with..." or "known to have these effects". Why alt med users don't pick up on the fact that alt med does not have to endure the scrutiny that actual medicine does is beyond me. Believers also tend to argue that not everything can be proved with science, yet they are happy to make scientifc claims about what Echinacea does:
www blackmores com /Products /Detail.aspx?ProductId=1850

(had to put spaces in the address cos I can't post web sites yet.)

Hopefully I will blog about the email i sent over the weekend so people can read it in full - i will post here when that's updated.

 

[hellaeon]

Just say you believe from scientific literature that the product does not do what it says and there is no evidence to support what they are saying (it will kill you). Dont leave the store, ask for more evidence. Ask them to show you something substantial and backed by peer review and you will gladly buy many products and take them as prescribed upon the bottles. Hound them when they dont answer the way a CTer does. Except, your in the right.

grrrrr

 

[wundergeist]

As a matter of fact, most health food stores, supermarkets, convenience kiosks, and drugstores have a homeopathic medicine section: you'll find it under "bottled water."

Wg

 

[Chris Haynes]

Perhaps you could have just looked confused over the homepathic way of noting amount, and asked them what 10C works out in actual percentage, like that used in the rest of the world.

If they don't give you an honest answer, tell them you will go and look on the internet.

You then find this (how to make medicine by Hahnemann):
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/64.html

and this (a recipe for Nat Mur):
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/8e13fd1b374ce84b?hl=en&

Print them out, return to the store and tell them you found out... and then willingly share with them.

 

[Jackalgirl]

....She informed me that I had asked a stupid question so I should only expect a stupid answer. She told me homeopathy works, that asprin is homeopathic (!) and that removing the items from the shelves was never going to happen. If I wasn't interested in purchasing the product, she said, I should go away.

Hmmm. Asking someone if it's possible to overdose using a (supposed) medicine does not strike me as a stupid question at all.

Plus, she seemed to respond with a lot of stuff not related to the original question at all. Are you paraphrasing an entire argument here, or did she really go off with all of this stuff in response to a simple question about overdosing? Or was there more going on?

I think it's a pretty good question. "Is it possible to overdose on this? How much would I need to take?"

Did she say anything else about asprin being homeopathic? That would've perked my li'l doggie ears /right/ up. I think it would have been a good idea to ask her to describe to you what homeopathy is (although, if she was in Going Off Mode at this point, you wouldn't have been able to).

I'm interested that you were asked to leave the store. Was anyone shouting at this point?

 

[SezMe]

Loss Leader, I would have started climbing the store's management ladder. Ignoring the homeopathy part for a minute, for the kiosk lady to get uppity with you is just out of bounds. She should be called on that alone. Her boss (and up the chain if necessary) should know they have a jerkweed working for them in a very public place.

Since the place is convenient for you, why not go back and ask to speak to the manager about your rude treatment. Then, when you have his/her ear, maybe you can find out their stance on the homeopathy part. I'll bet the bottom line there is that that department is very profitable and they'll defend it with something like, "We're just meeting our customers' demands."

 

[Chris Haynes]

Oh, I found some other choice bits of the Organon I used in a Usenet debate. They may be disjointed, so forgive me:


Here is some of the instructions in the Organon... from
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/65.html (I would also invite anyone who is interested to read the next few pages, accessible by changing the 65 to 66, etc... it gets very interesting as Hahnemann introduces mermersism!):

All other substances adapted for medicinal use - except sulphur, which has of late years been only employed in the form of a highly diluted (X)
tincture - as pure or oxidized and sulphuretted metals and other minerals,
petroleum, phosphorus, as also parts and juices of plants that can only be
obtained in the dry state, animal substances, neutral salts, etc., all these
are first to be potentized by trituration for three hours, up to the
millionfold pulverulent attenuation, and of this one grain is to be
dissolved, and brought to the thirtieth development of power through
twenty-seven attenuating phials, in the same manner as the vegetable
juices.1

1 As is still more circumstantially described in the prefaces to Arsenic and
Pulsatilla in the Materia Medica Pura.

§ 271 Sixth Edition
If the physician prepares his homoopathic medicines himself, as he should
reasonably do in order to save men from sickness,1 he may use the fresh
plant itself, as but little of the crude article is required, if he does not
need the expressed juice perhaps for purposes of healing. He takes a few
grains in a mortar and with 100 grains sugar of milk three distinct times
brings them to the one-millionth trituration (§ 270) before further
potentizing of a small portion of this by means of shaking is undertaken, a
procedure to be observed also with the rest of crude drugs of either dry or oily nature.

from
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/69.html ;

But in this increase of action by the mixture of the dose of medicine with a larger quantity of liquid (before its ingestion), the result is vastly different whether the mixture of the dose of medicine with a certain quantity of liquid is performed merely superficially and imperfectly, or so uniformly and intimately1 that the smallest portion of the diluting fluid received the same quantity of medicine in proportion as all the rest; for the latter becomes much more medicinally powerful by the diluting mixture than the former.

(what was fun with this exchange was that John Scudamore, the Whale.to usenet loon would snip out Hahnemann's words when he replied!)

 

[geni]

Asprin is homeopathic?


News to me. I assume it would be news to asprin manufacturers too.

Eh I asssume they were doing the usual homeopathic=natural/herbal thing.

Ignore for the moment the issue that aspirin isn't salicylic acid

 

[WWHP]

So here's my series of questions: What's your story about confronting woos? What should I have done differently? What advice do you have about how (and even whether) to broach these subjects?

Hmmm. Very interesting attitude you have if you dont mind my saying, stranger.

I think we may be able to help each other out! Some people claim that I myself am a woo. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what they mean.

I dont know much about homeopathy one way or another, never really trusted it, I like my drugs with a powerful wallop, and prefer things I can double dose on later for an extra late nite kick;-)

Anyway, if you want to directly confront and educate this woo on some matters then your talking to the right woo!

We can get right to the heart of the matter real quick too if your interested. I find most self proclaimed critical thinkers actually are embarisingly irrational, reactionairy, and horribly intuitive when they are confronted with a three value logic or truth system. literally their arguments appear to crumble into complete nothingness, and often times I find them horribly guilty of magical thinking! Even Mr. Randi himself!

So what ya' say cowboy, wanna rassle a woo? Please challenge me like you have never challenged anyone before. I mean kick me down, beat me up, show me the error of my ways!

I need a better challenge than I'm getting, and these guys could use some help, please feel free to jump on in!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73672

Yer new pal,

Bubblefish

 

[Protocol53]

It's always been my experience that facts and science make homeopaths angry. I've not yet found a way to confront a homeopath with scientific information that doesn't make said homeopath mad. I've noticed the same thing you mentioned too, they always begin talking about something that is not related in anyway to the topic or question I've posed. I guess when scientific proof isn't on your side, it could make you testy.

 

[Solus]

So, I was in my health food store today. I really do love that place - near my office and plenty of grass-fed beef, whole grain products, local produce, etc. - but I ventured over to the very large health supplement section. It was mostly vitamins and "natural" remedies that may or may not work to some untested degree or another. But they had an entire area dedicated to homeopathic medications.

This angered me.

They had a little health/supplement kiosk with a lady standing by to answer your questions. I picked up a bottle of homeopathic insomnia remedy and asked her if there would be any ill effects if I took the entire bottle at once.

And things deteriorated rapidly from there.

She informed me that I had asked a stupid question so I should only expect a stupid answer. She told me homeopathy works, that asprin is homeopathic (!) and that removing the items from the shelves was never going to happen. If I wasn't interested in purchasing the product, she said, I should go away.

A friendly store worker guy told me that I shouldn't take the whole bottle because I would get sick. I replied that, if he would give me the $9.00 bottle free, I would gladly take the entire thing right then and wait with him so he could see the effect.

And that's when I was told to leave the store.

So here's my series of questions: What's your story about confronting woos? What should I have done differently? What advice do you have about how (and even whether) to broach these subjects?

What did you expect was going to happen? That they were going to agree with you and say, "yes, homeopathic medicine is a bunch of BS and I'm just using it to make money"?

Your only choice is make these people look like fools do follow Randi's example on this one. How to make them look like fools?

First, don't say a word and buy the garbage from the woman then shallow the whole bottle of pills at once in front of group a believers. See what her reaction is. That's the kind of thing you have to do, more than just talk. Heavy action is required to expose these jokers.

 

[TsarBomba]

Dont leave the store, ask for more evidence.

grrrrr

Perhaps the laws in the Great Land Down Under are more forgiving of trespassers than in the Empire State. If an employee tells you to leave the store, you leave the store--especially under these circumstances. If not, they will most likely call the police because you are then trespassing. The police will either give you a warning or a summons to appear, or maybe even arrest you.

 

[Mobyseven]

Perhaps the laws in the Great Land Down Under are more forgiving of trespassers than in the Empire State. If an employee tells you to leave the store, you leave the store--especially under these circumstances. If not, they will most likely call the police because you are then trespassing. The police will either give you a warning or a summons to appear, or maybe even arrest you.

But it's the principle of the thing, dammit!

...

We Aussies are a stubborn bunch.

 

[shell]

One of the best ways to get someone to listen to what you say and give you coherent feedback, is to start with common ground. As in the case of the insomnia 'medicine', you could have have said something about insomnia sucking. You would get an agreement. (don't know of anyone woo or otherwise who gets a kick out of not being able to sleep) Then maybe relay a little bit about your experience with insomnia and ask if the person ever had one of those nights. (Chances are good they have and in the situation even if they haven't they'll play it up to sell the stuff)

Then ease into how you've heard such and such about the product, they'll rebut, you rebut....conceding a point made when appropriate-even if it's something like the product having a great name will open the door for the other person to concede some points to you.

This is how you go about an argument to convince. The more yeses you can get to your points the more likely you are to get the person to seriously consider what you've presented. Just keep in mind to break the person's argument down and not the person.

 

[EvilBiker]

One of the best ways to get someone to listen to what you say and give you coherent feedback, is to start with common ground. As in the case of the insomnia 'medicine', you could have have said something about insomnia sucking. You would get an agreement. (don't know of anyone woo or otherwise who gets a kick out of not being able to sleep) Then maybe relay a little bit about your experience with insomnia and ask if the person ever had one of those nights. (Chances are good they have and in the situation even if they haven't they'll play it up to sell the stuff)

Then ease into how you've heard such and such about the product, they'll rebut, you rebut....conceding a point made when appropriate-even if it's something like the product having a great name will open the door for the other person to concede some points to you.

This is how you go about an argument to convince. The more yeses you can get to your points the more likely you are to get the person to seriously consider what you've presented. Just keep in mind to break the person's argument down and not the person.

Bears repeating. Nominated, too.

 

[Zep]

Hmmm. Very interesting attitude you have if you dont mind my saying, stranger.

I think we may be able to help each other out! Some people claim that I myself am a woo. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what they mean.

I dont know much about homeopathy one way or another, never really trusted it, I like my drugs with a powerful wallop, and prefer things I can double dose on later for an extra late nite kick;-)

Anyway, if you want to directly confront and educate this woo on some matters then your talking to the right woo!

We can get right to the heart of the matter real quick too if your interested. I find most self proclaimed critical thinkers actually are embarisingly irrational, reactionairy, and horribly intuitive when they are confronted with a three value logic or truth system. literally their arguments appear to crumble into complete nothingness, and often times I find them horribly guilty of magical thinking! Even Mr. Randi himself!

So what ya' say cowboy, wanna rassle a woo? Please challenge me like you have never challenged anyone before. I mean kick me down, beat me up, show me the error of my ways!

I need a better challenge than I'm getting, and these guys could use some help, please feel free to jump on in!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73672

Yer new pal,

Bubblefish

If you are taking meds, get them checked. If you are not, see a doctor to get some.

OK?

 

[RSLancastr]

A friendly store worker guy told me that I shouldn't take the whole bottle because I would get sick. I replied that, if he would give me the $9.00 bottle free, I would gladly take the entire thing right then and wait with him so he could see the effect.

Maybe you already know this, but I'll say it for the benefit of those who may not:

Not all medicinces with the label "homeopathic" are truly homeopathic. Some actually have active ingredients, and are simply using the word "homeopathic" as a marketing ploy.

So, swallowing a whole bottle of pills marked as "homeopathic" may not be advisable.

First, don't say a word and buy the garbage from the woman then shallow the whole bottle of pills at once in front of group a believers.

See above.