Randi on Anderson Cooper 360

[Walk The Line]

I have been told, by people who attended one of Browne's "Spiritual Salons" on January 20th, that she told them that she had asked Francine (her "spirit guide") how she could have been so wrong about Shawn Hornbeck, and Francine told her that she had picked up on the body of another boy.

So not only was Sylvia wrong about Shawn Hornbeck, she also picked up on the location of the body of another boy and was wrong about that!! (Since the Police didn't find any body during their search.)

 

[Loss Leader]

So not only was Sylvia wrong about Shawn Hornbeck, she also picked up on the location of the body of another boy and was wrong about that!! (Since the Police didn't find any body during their search.)

Don't be ridiculous. The boy Sylvia saw won't be killed for another 140 years. The police should recheck the woods in 2147.

 

[Number Six]

Saying that Sylvia does no better than skilled guessing is good but proving it would be even better. One way of doing that is getting Sylvia to take the test, which won't happen, but another way is to skillfully guess along with Sylvia and compiling a track record as good as hers. On TV the other night I assume was saw Sylvia's greatest hits over the past 30 years since surely she'd give her best when she knew CNN was doing a story about it. Skillfull guessing over the past 30 years would've produced a record as good (probably better) and being able to submit that to CNN for the story might have made a big impact.

One problem with this is that skillfull guessing probably takes a good bit of time since it would help to gather known facts about a case before making the guess. Another problem is that to be most effective against long time psychics like Sylvia you'd have to skillfully guess for a long period of time. A third problem would be that some people might think you were serious and you'd end up inadvertently doing the sleazy things that Sylvia does, albeit not for money. And a fourth problem is that you'd be spending all that time making skillfull guess and not getting any money for all that time.

 

[Darat]

Don't be ridiculous. The boy Sylvia saw won't be killed for another 140 years. The police should recheck the woods in 2147.

And by then the oceans will have risen due to global warming so the woods will be next to water.

 

[Moochie]

Randi has been my number 1 hero for about 20 years now and I love his curmudgeonly persona.

We don't need another hero...

M.

 

[Walk The Line]

Don't be ridiculous. The boy Sylvia saw won't be killed for another 140 years. The police should recheck the woods in 2147.

Perhaps Francine should recalibrate her time travel instruments then.

Or get a better DeLorean.

 

[CFLarsen]

And by then the oceans will have risen due to global warming so the woods will be next to water.

No. There won't be a world by then:

Four more comets will pass by before the end times.

Peace in the Middle East will prevail by 2050.

By 2055 most people will live in domed cities due to poor atmospheric conditions.

Peace will last from 2050 until 2100, and then I see nothing beyond, which could mean "the end will come like a thief in the night.

After 2050, the "Age of the Messiah" is upon us. People turn totally toward Spirituality, peace will rein for a long time. People will return to community living, loving each other, and working together.

Toward the end of things, the veil separating our world from The Other Side will thin, so much so that most people will see decease loved ones and speak with their Spirit Guides.

West Coast goes under in 2026. Parts of the East Coast also get inundated. Tsunamis will wipe out a large portion of Japan. The Hawaiian Islands will have upheaval and be the site of a large new landmass.

Atlantis will begin to show itself by 2023 and be fully visible by 2026.

Sylvia Browne: Predictions For 2000-2100

 

[pgwenthold]

Maybe that's a point that the public should consider. What good is Sylvia if she can't tell one spirit from another? Isn't the "skill" of spirit communication pretty much worthless if you can't get your dead bodies straight, or even tell the dead ones from the live ones? There must be millions of apparitions floating around out there..if she can't focus in on the correct one, why pay her $700?

So she is getting real information from spirits, but has to guess about to what it applies.

How is that any different from guessing in the first place?

 

[Moochie]

The hopes and wishes of desperate, grieving people.

Finding it difficult to relinquish the religious allusions? I know I do, at times.

I no longer say "Bless You" when someone sneezes. I say "gesundheit" instead. It's appropriate, since German is my native language. It means "good health."


M.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Anyone can.. "Society of Novus Spiritus is a nonprofit religious corporation as defined by the IRS Code 501(c)(3), which was granted on September 7, 1990."

Additionally, there is a 990 on guidestar.org but it's from 2001. Sylvia was (at the time anyway) the only employee as president and received no salary. They took in about $400k and spent about $400k.

Very interesting. I had assumed that all the income from the readings would have been donations to her "church" (making them non-taxable (I think), and even tax deductible for the donators), and that she would draw a salary from the church which (I believe) would be taxable. She could legally pay herself whatever salary, say something comfortable like $200K/year (which is not terribly out of line for the president of a non-profit) and as long as she paid taxes on that everything would be kosher with the IRS.

*I am not an accountant, nor a tax expert, so the above is all assumptions on my part, and may be factually incorrect.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Does Sylvia charge for readings? Yes, $750 for a phone consultation. I pointed out that I saw her manager on TV and she said that she didn't charge. He laughed and pointed out that she doesn't charge for missing persons and the like. After all, he pointed out, she does have a staff and a corporation to suport.

Oh? It's a corporation? I thought she had a a church?

I don't think it's unusual for churches to be registered as non-profit organizations.

Of course he pointed out that it's not a donation, and not tax deductible, if I received something (the reading) in return.

Also interesting, because it's quite common for religious orgs to ask for a donation, and they'll give a gift in return.

This makes me wonder if it's some way around IRS and other regulation.

I'm sure it is.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Also interesting, because it's quite common for religious orgs to ask for a donation, and they'll give a gift in return.

Perhaps I am wrong on this. My memory is that this used to be fairly common MO for televangelists and the like, but I looked at a few sketchy church's websites (ULC, Benny Hinn, and Rod Parsley), and it sure seems that they are now selling products, and not asking for "donations" in exchange for "gifts". So either my memory is poor, or the IRS has changed the rules in the last few years.

 

[rikzilla]

You know, I had thoughts along these lines earlier today after watching Lisa's (thanks Lisa) Youtubes on Randi's latest appearance on CNN

Randi has been my number 1 hero for about 20 years now and I love his curmudgeonly persona. But that persona is going to be more of a hinderance than a help in the MDC2. I was thinking that he should get himself onto some TV shows that may not be what we in this community might consider 'responsible reporting' type shows like AC on CNN, but would do his media profile some good.

I'm thinking about appearances on Leno - doing a few card tricks, and maybe appearing as one of the guests on other chat shows. Not confrontational ones, but conversational ones. Randi could regale the audience (and the other guests) with anecdotes about the places he has been and people he has known, once again throwing in a bit of conjuration - not for the purposes of de-bunking, rather for entertainment.

This, I feel, would let the people who don't know Randi as we do, see him in a much better light and the next time he is face to face with a rep of the psychic community, he may be looked on much more favourably by the public. At the moment his media persona is sure to make some people look at him and think that he looks like a mad old wizard so he must be deranged.

Having said that, I'll fight for that little man anywhere, any time, no matter how much a mad old wizard he looks.

(rule 8)-ing A right mate!!!

 

[SirPhilip]

Maybe that's a point that the public should consider. What good is Sylvia if she can't tell one spirit from another? Isn't the "skill" of spirit communication pretty much worthless if you can't get your dead bodies straight, or even tell the dead ones from the live ones? There must be millions of apparitions floating around out there..if she can't focus in on the correct one, why pay her $700?

It's always important to invoke Occam's Razor here. What she claims to do is retrieve accurate information in a manner distinct from guessing. That's it. What this has to do with spiritualism I leave up to you, because it's a contradiction in terms. As soon as she opens her mouth, her ability to do this can be measured. In other words, it's elementary school math.

Doh.

A fifth grade class could compare a set of her readings against the common random firings of wetware of a control group of trained guessers. Perhaps even untrained. I disagree with Randi that she isn't "intrinsically" malevolent, in this sense, because she employs every single tactic to avoid the simplicity of verifying the claim she makes.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

There's something stinky here.

There is, but I think it might be from clever wording. "She supports her religious organization and her corporation from being a psychic. Yes, that's a fact." and "All of which is returned back to her spiritual organization and her corporation. Sylvia gets no money at all from her psychic readings personally." (Linda Rossi)

I think that is worded to imply people pay her corporation for her readings, so she can claim she takes no money from people, and she's simply paid by her corporation as an employee? And/or it's "her corporation" so wouldn't its assets be hers?

The idea that she "personally" gets no money from psychic readings just sticks in my craw. It's as if she's trying to get out of the moral dilemma of charging people for lying to them. And to compound matters, I would suspect this would provide her some level of protection. One wouldn't sue her directly, he or she would sue her corporation; if it couldn't pay it would declare bankruptcy, and Sylvia's own money would be safe. (Or so I would think as someone not inclined to accountancy)

kt

 

[Horatius]

I thought this was Randi's weakest moment:

This moment was worse than you thought. Ted Gunderson is a known CT woo, as pointed out in this other thread. I heard of him through some of the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense, and was surprised to see AC quoting him. Perhaps someone should e-mail this info to CNN, and see what they have to say.

 

[davefoc]

This moment was worse than you thought. Ted Gunderson is a known CT woo, as pointed out in this other thread. I heard of him through some of the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense, and was surprised to see AC quoting him. Perhaps someone should e-mail this info to CNN, and see what they have to say.

This kind of makes my point. It is not possible to have heard of everybody making claims of a supernatural nature or to know about the evidence for their claims. When Randi was hit with a claim like this out of the blue, it would probably have been better to just acknowledge that he'd never heard of the guy and wasn't familiar with his claims or his evidence.

 

[Loss Leader]

Also interesting, because it's quite common for religious orgs to ask for a donation, and they'll give a gift in return.

yeah, well, they can do that but it isn't legal. It doesn't matter if they call them "donations" and "gifts," it matters if something is actually being given for money. Maybe the wordplay might make them feel better, but it won't make their activity any more legal. When the IRS catches up to them, the gifts will get reclassified and they will have to pay their taxes.

However, the value of the "donation" in excess of the "gift" is still taxc-deductable. If I go to the auction down at Bet Israel and win two Yankees tickets for a bid of $100.00, the difference between the value of the tickets (say $70.00) and my bid will be a tax-deductable gift. So, I can write off $30.00 on my taxes.

What about services (like psychic readings) that have no easily assessable value? It's a big mess. If I were the IRS, I'd consider arguing that they have no value.

 

[BrianSI]

When we watched that at TAM5, someone a few tables behind me said "Hey, we're ahead of the curve in somethin'!"

That was Cleon, as I was sitting just to the right of him. He's in Atlanta.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

I really feel sorry for those that believe all people who consult psychics, or anything else that the organized skeptical movement disbelieves, must be desperate and grieving.

No one said all people who consult psychics are desperate and grieving. It's just particularly sad when those that consult psychics ARE desperate and grieving. The rest are just gullible.

Just got off the phone with one of her office monkeys. I called under the pretense that I was interested in a reading and just wanted to get clarification on a few things.

Does Sylvia charge for readings? Yes, $750 for a phone consultation. I pointed out that I saw her manager on TV and she said that she didn't charge. He laughed and pointed out that she doesn't charge for missing persons and the like. After all, he pointed out, she does have a staff and a corporation to suport.

Oh? It's a corporation? I thought she had a a church? Well yes, he said, for over 30 years. So what portion of the reading fee (love donation??) went to the church and which to the corporation? He had no answer. I was curious of course, because if it went to the church maybe it would be tax deductible. Of course he pointed out that it's not a donation, and not tax deductible, if I received something (the reading) in return.

This makes me wonder if it's some way around IRS and other regulation. I wonder if anyone's ever looked into the financial situation with her "church."

I'll have to go looking through the transcripts, but didn't her business manager say that Sylvia never requires the fee? I remember like she phrased it that the fee was more like a suggestion.

Just an opinion, but it didn't look to be as though Randi lost his temper. He just complained, justifiably, that he was being interrupted, and had to shout over her to be heard.

I didn't get the impression he lost it that much, either. He just was trying to speak over the woman's continual babble. I thought he handled it ok.

yeah, well, they can do that but it isn't legal. It doesn't matter if they call them "donations" and "gifts," it matters if something is actually being given for money. Maybe the wordplay might make them feel better, but it won't make their activity any more legal. When the IRS catches up to them, the gifts will get reclassified and they will have to pay their taxes.

However, the value of the "donation" in excess of the "gift" is still taxc-deductable. If I go to the auction down at Bet Israel and win two Yankees tickets for a bid of $100.00, the difference between the value of the tickets (say $70.00) and my bid will be a tax-deductable gift. So, I can write off $30.00 on my taxes.

What about services (like psychic readings) that have no easily assessable value? It's a big mess. If I were the IRS, I'd consider arguing that they have no value.

Then you could write off 100% of the cost of the reading. That just seems wrong.