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Annoying creationists

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Your entire post was an argument from authority.
Wrong.
You did not provide logical reasons for Popper's correctness; you provided authorative ones.
Wrong again.
Are you unaware that scientific truth is derived from epirical observation, not from academic honors?
Absolutely not
I have explained why I thought your post was a logical fallacy. Perhaps you could do the same in return.
It's very simple. There are lots of old sayings which fit, but I just stick with "BS walks" and at this stage, you're knee-deep in it. I really wonder whether some of you lot actually learned to read and write in English. Your posts [?] shows a complete inability to read very simple, short posts, along with an innate ability to build a strawman out of what you think you read.

I'm certainly beginning to see why you're buddies with Arti. You are so blinded by your own genius that you cannot even interpret a simple 40-50 word post. She can't either.

The only hint I'll give you is to ask WHERE I mentioned Popper's correctness? You're so bleeding thick you didn't even notice that I noted he was WRONG. God, I bet they loved you in the debating team at high school. Maybe you're still in one.

Give yourself a break from having it pointed out how pathetic you are - next time you wish to respond to one of my posts, strike a match and wave it in front of your screen first. If your screen bursts into flames, you need to start again (again).

All this simply to avoid the answer to a simple question. I'll type it in caps so you can't miss it this time:

WHAT HAVE YOU ACHIEVED?

We know that Arti. is so smart she gave up a career as the Next Einstein (or Curie, if you prefer) to bring her enormous intellect to benefit her pupils, all of whom love her so dearly. Those that aren't asleep after the first five minutes, anyway.

Come on, what's your claim to fame?

John Hewitt, kleinmann, Paul C and Dr Adequate are all pretty open about their achievements - genius that you are, give us your credentials for declaring Popper an "idiot", because at this stage, the only one shaping up to that tag is you.

Cheers.
 
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...

Is anyone seriously claiming genes and evolution are inextricably linked?
Are you kidding or am I reading this question wrong?

Evolution is the theory of how living organisms change over time. Genetic change is the process. The genes are the "theory" if I may distort things a bit for simplicity.

Genes are part of the DNA (and RNA for some viruses) blueprint by which living organisms reproduce and changes in DNA and RNA are the mechanism of evolution.

How on Earth do you see evolution without genetic changes or are you imagining genes as something different from the DNA?

I just don't get this question at all.

Isn’t the word ‘gene’ shorthand for something like ‘molecular data storage device’, along with other things? Don’t scientists implicitly know this?
We are beyond implicit. Genes are observed directly. That's what codons are all about.

Isn’t trying to explain humor or other social behavior using genes like using the state of transistors in a processor to understand the operation of Windows?
Maybe this is the disconnect. You are talking about evolution of something besides the organism itself? We have a lot to learn about how genes control behavior but we know they do. I didn't teach my dogs to hunt but they certainly have an instinct to chase small animals and kill them if they catch them.

Behaviors, just like the physical body can be modified in addition to the genetic contribution.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood what scientists are attempting to do in genetics, but I thought it was explaining human evolution at a physiological level, with some physiology having direct impact on behavior.

Psychology is the study of human behavior. Maybe one day it will coalesce with genetics (I doubt it), but at this stage they are distinct areas of study, except for the impact physiology has on behavior.
It already has coalesced. There are thousands of studies completed and ongoing on the physiological factors in behavior from neurotransmitters to hormones to brain structure. Some factors are genetically determined some are not.

As I understand it (now probably showing my ignorance), all you need to have a system that can evolve is:

An energy source
A memory store
External stressors that can affect a particular memory stores’ survival chances
Reproduction of memory store with modification/error

As for what happened at the very beginning of life, I’m not that concerned. The answer has no application today. All ideas about it will be little more than hypotheses since I doubt anyone has the patience (or environment) required to do the experiments that would take billions of years to complete to provide supporting evidence.
Joyce, at the Scripps Institute forced the equivalent of a few thousand years or something in lab experiments with RNA. I don't remember the details so don't quote the numbers.

I don't understand your point though.
 
... I'm still not excited by the idea of creatures a million light-years away, as I can't possibly examine or communicate with them. The only life of interest is that which can be reached by man, our scientific instruments or our two-way communications. So why not just go and find it?....
People view themselves as part of groups. Finding bacteria on Mars will change the view of life. Finding a technological therefore intelligent life exists in the Universe may change our view of the "group" to that of human rather than some division of human.

This is not something I would expect immediate change and revelations but there could be some impact at some time in the future.
 
I'm certainly beginning to see why you're buddies with Arti. You are so blinded by your own genius that you cannot even interpret a simple 40-50 word post. She can't either.

The only hint I'll give you is to ask WHERE I mentioned Popper's correctness? You're so bleeding thick you didn't even notice that I noted he was WRONG. God, I bet they loved you in the debating team at high school. Maybe you're still in one.
Quite so, I can't remember a single posting from either Yahzi or Articulett that manages to be both polite and sensible.

Just as an aside, it does not seem to me clear that Popper was wrong. His work is a philosophy, not a scientific theory and it is not clear that a philosophy is falsifiable.
Accordingly, his criterion of falsifiability does not apply to his own work. Thus, although it is true that scientists do not actually do the things that, according to Popper's ideas, scientists should do, that does not that mean his philosophy is wrong. Most observers, certainly me at least, now feel that Popper's logic is part of an ethic of science rather than a sociological description of it. For the latter one must turn to Kuhn, Feyerabend, Knorr-Cetina, Mitroff, Ziman, Lakatos or others. Nobody really gives a single complete description.
The last two names I mention are notable for, as I perceive them, rather linking their descriptions with the body politic of science. Kuhn did that too, though I think more so in his, "The Essential Tension," rather than in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."
 
Quite so, I can't remember a single posting from either Yahzi or Articulett that manages to be both polite and sensible.

Just as an aside, it does not seem to me clear that Popper was wrong. His work is a philosophy, not a scientific theory and it is not clear that a philosophy is falsifiable.
Accordingly, his criterion of falsifiability does not apply to his own work. Thus, although it is true that scientists do not actually do the things that, according to Popper's ideas, scientists should do, that does not that mean his philosophy is wrong. Most observers, certainly me at least, now feel that Popper's logic is part of an ethic of science rather than a sociological description of it. For the latter one must turn to Kuhn, Feyerabend, Knorr-Cetina, Mitroff, Ziman, Lakatos or others. Nobody really gives a single complete description.
The last two names I mention are notable for, as I perceive them, rather linking their descriptions with the body politic of science. Kuhn did that too, though I think more so in his, "The Essential Tension," rather than in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."

John Hewitt: I see references to something you wrote, would you mind reposting that link (51 pgs of debate is just way too much to sift through).

Also, I keep reading a reference to the sun as a way to provide energy for a cyclic chemical process, but what about the tides, or the moon? The sun was no where near as bright in the Archean, nor was there sufficient atmosphere to block UV rays. Further, I have often heard that early earth may have been frozen over (with ice blocking the sun). This has probably already been discussed but I was just wondering what your thoughts were…
 
John Hewitt: I see references to something you wrote, would you mind reposting that link (51 pgs of debate is just way too much to sift through).

Also, I keep reading a reference to the sun as a way to provide energy for a cyclic chemical process, but what about the tides, or the moon? The sun was no where near as bright in the Archean, nor was there sufficient atmosphere to block UV rays. Further, I have often heard that early earth may have been frozen over (with ice blocking the sun). This has probably already been discussed but I was just wondering what your thoughts were…

The link to which you refer is most probably in
www.sexandphilosophy.co.uk
under the prebiotic evolution link, chapters three or four.

The cyclic chemical processes to which I refer will, I suggest, arise from and be driven by cyclic variations of temperature due to the sun's day night cycle. Other oscillatory energy sources could have similar effects but, since the sun was, even then, by far the largest, it is my favorite candidate. Chafe suggested cyclic drying out in small ponds as a possibility but not in this context. (He argued that cyclic drying out of nucleotides would to lead to their polymerization.)

Oscillations in temperature will lead to oscillations in the position of any chemical equilibrium reaction in the organic soup. It is those oscillations that I propose to be subject to evolution. According to the scenario I describe, their evolutionary selection will lead, eventually to self-oscillating pathways of chemicals resembling both metabolic pathways and hypercycles. Thus the model suggests a mechanism whereby all biochemical pathways could have emerged in an essentially complete form. Further selection of pathways would then merge them into protocells. Data carrying molecules would emerge later.

It is true that the sun would have been less bright during that era than it is now - about 50-60% as bright. Nonetheless, the earth was warmer then. This is partly because the earth itself was still hot due to the gravitational energy releaesed during its formation and from impacts. Also, as CO2 accumulated in the atmosphere from volcanic outgassing, it provided a greenhouse effect. Hence water is thought to have been liquid then and for almost all the earth's history. (I believe that episodes of snowball earth occurred later and were due to removal of greenhouse CO2 by life.)
 
Annoying Creationists

skeptigirl said:
They would be my peers. Unlike you who has only ideas of grandeur in your corner. And of course you continue to ignore the whole rest of my post.
To bad so many of your peers like you have no mathematical skills, otherwise you would have an easier time understanding my arguments. Virtually none of what you post has anything to do with the mathematics of mutation and selection. If you wish to write something on this topic, I will attempt to respond to this.
Ivor the Engineer said:
Is anyone seriously claiming genes and evolution are inextricably linked?
Evolutionarians on this forum are all over the landscape now that it has been pointed out to them what the ev computer model of random point mutations and natural selection shows when realistic genome lengths and mutation rates are used in the model. They are looking for any way they can to rescue their theory from the mathematical quicksand that it is sinking in.
Kleinman said:
Skeptigirl, I know you are having a hard time coming to grips with this but there is no selection process that would lead to the evolution of a gene de novo. Without this selection process, you have no macroevolution. Mutation and natural selection can not and does not do what is hypothesized in the theory of evolution. You have succumbed to peer pressure on this issue not the truth.
scatequate said:
You know I said you should find out what "selection" means?
Kleinman said:
scatequate said:
You should also add the word "truth" to the list of words you should look up. It's a fascinating concept, though you might not enjoy it as much as the rest of us.
Since you are the one with the PhD in mathematics, why don’t you give us a mathematical description for “selection”? Or is your logic failing you? I’m sure Paul and Dr Schneider would appreciate this.

The truth is what I use to annoy you. You still haven’t learned that yet, well I’ll be patient with you.
skeptigirl said:
Evolution is the theory of how living organisms change over time. Genetic change is the process. The genes are the "theory" if I may distort things a bit for simplicity.
You should study the mathematics of this process. It would reveal how absurd your “theory” is.
skeptigirl said:
Are you kidding or am I reading this question wrong?
Paul said:
I think Ivor was saying that no one claims that genes are the only medium through which evolution can work.
Paul, tell us what other medium besides genes which evolution can work.
 
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Quite so, I can't remember a single posting from either Yahzi or Articulett that manages to be both polite and sensible.

Just as an aside, it does not seem to me clear that Popper was wrong. His work is a philosophy, not a scientific theory and it is not clear that a philosophy is falsifiable.
Accordingly, his criterion of falsifiability does not apply to his own work. Thus, although it is true that scientists do not actually do the things that, according to Popper's ideas, scientists should do, that does not that mean his philosophy is wrong. Most observers, certainly me at least, now feel that Popper's logic is part of an ethic of science rather than a sociological description of it. For the latter one must turn to Kuhn, Feyerabend, Knorr-Cetina, Mitroff, Ziman, Lakatos or others. Nobody really gives a single complete description.
The last two names I mention are notable for, as I perceive them, rather linking their descriptions with the body politic of science. Kuhn did that too, though I think more so in his, "The Essential Tension," rather than in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."
Way out of my league! I'm just going with the prevailing wind (for a change), but whether one particular theory of his was "right" or "wrong" isn't the issue with me.

Some of Popper's achievements are unquestionable, which is why I related NZ's history of the man in particular. Churchill made a few cock-ups, including a couple of outright massacres. Only an imbecile (or a narrow-minder under-achiever) would deny him his greateness or class him as an idiot. Not that I'm putting Popper in Churchill's league, but the premise is the same.
 
Kleinman, are you really claiming among the thousands of scientists who recognize the validity of the theory of evolution none of them have math skills equal to yours?

And you don't think 'ideas of grandeur' applies to this belief of yours?
 
Kleinman, provided he believes what he says, does give us a good example of the brain mechanisms at work selecting only a fraction of available information, that which supports his false belief, then excluding all other information from consideration.

In my TAM presentation I mentioned not every false belief can be corrected with sharing knowledge. This is a case in point. Kleinman simply chooses to block out any information which contradicts his false belief. The facts do not exist to him, and his mind will simply not allow him to consider the overwhelming evidence against his position.

The power of religious memes? A defect of the human mind? Self protection mechanism preventing facing a reality that is painful?
 
You couldn't name one thing I have posted in this thread that you can show with supporting evidence is wrong let alone indefensible.
As I intended to say (before my ability to post was imo rudely and unjustifably interrupted) you have posted more factoids unrelated to what is being discussed than most here.

Your posts remind me of lint. It shows up on things but has no relevance other than it can be annoying if it becomes too frequent.
\
I suspect you "get annoyed" a lot.


And all Brassica are still Brassica...?
I could most likely convince myself that mustard and cabbage plants are mustard and cabbage plants, yes.
 
Kleinman, are you really claiming among the thousands of scientists who recognize the validity of the theory of evolution none of them have math skills equal to yours?

I sure hope not.

I wouldn't want to think they're all as incompetent as he is.

For me the funniest thing is his inability to define the event he has proved impossible, his understanding of genetics as 4^G, an inability to actually provide the realistic values he bangs on about (since he has no idea what they are), his simultaneous lampooning of evolutionary theory for being unmathematical and use of ev as the definitive mathematical model - hell, just every second of his moronic Jesus-fuelled dumbassery has been wonderful to watch.
 
He does? Where did he say that?

~~ Paul

Oh, don't make me plow through his pages of obfuscations again. Let's just ask him and you may have to look at what he doesn't say or how he says things.

John, do you think that there forces other than nature or naturalism that account for replication in life forms?

Also, can you give a quick description as to why you insist that the cell is the true replicator, not the DNA/RNA?

Below is a link to a few pages back where the question was asked and ignored then answered obliquely with an obfuscation yet again. But his whole paper is about using "philosophy" as a better means of describing prebiosis, life, sexuality, humor, etc. He claims that evolution can't account for these things and that his theory can.

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=2290586&highlight=naturalism#post2290586

He claims not to know what naturalism is...and so he never really says that what he's proposing involves "intelligent design", but his support of Behe and ID, odd obfuscations, avoidance of all questions trying to ferret out his leanings, hatred of Dawkins, and dislike for the scientific establishment and failure to even subject himself to peer review (because of people like me apparently who fill the scientific community) can and is taken by me to indicate his data streams from the sun or the "design" of intelligence--and not natural, bottom up occurrences.

What the heck do you think he's saying? Certainly some intelligent person on this forum should be able to sum up his claims if they make sense since he seems incapable of doing so. He's asserted that I'm not too bright, but certainly not everyone can be as daft as I am. You're smart. You hung in there with Kleinman--plow through his links and his comments on the page above (as well as the many questions he's never quite answered) and see if you can discern what he's saying. If not, why not? He doesn't really say much, but there's a lot of information avoided and obfuscated in what he does say.

Unless someone somewhere sees some clarity that has heretofor been unwritten, I presume I've nailed this one. One just starts to get a feel for creationist -peak after engaging in these fruitless exchanges after some time...
 
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Annoying Creationists

skeptigirl said:
Kleinman, are you really claiming among the thousands of scientists who recognize the validity of the theory of evolution none of them have math skills equal to yours?

There may be thousands of evolutionarian scientists who have mathematical skill equal to or better than mine but they haven’t applied their skills to the mathematics of mutations and natural selection. Dr Schneider is one of the few who has applied their mathematical skills to this problem and it reveals several fatal flaws in your theory. Have you looked at Dr Schneider’s ev computer simulation of random point mutations and natural selection? If you had studied this model and understood the results obtained, you would understand the trouble your theory of evolution is in.
skeptigirl said:
Kleinman, provided he believes what he says, does give us a good example of the brain mechanisms at work selecting only a fraction of available information, that which supports his false belief, then excluding all other information from consideration.

Skeptigirl, I understand the foundation of your theory. You believe because there are similarities between the genomes of different types of life forms that one evolved from another. However, that is only half a theory. You have to explain how one species morphs to the next in the time available. It is this part of your theory that fails the scientific test.

If you are proposing that mutations and natural selection is the driving force for evolution, then it becomes a bookkeeping problem to see whether this mechanism can account for the genetic changes necessary to evolve a new species. Dr Schneider’s ev computer simulation of random point mutations and natural selection shows that this mechanism is far too slow to account for the changes necessary to evolve binding sites on realistic size genomes with realistic mutation rates. His selection mechanism is contrived yet it still reveals profoundly slow rates of accumulation of genetic information. Consider that there is no known selection mechanism for the evolution of a gene de novo that could be used in this model and you will understand why your theory of evolution has no mathematical basis. In fact, the mathematics of mutations and natural selection shows that this process is impossible.
 
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