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Rosemary Altea

Shut up, Tai Chi, just shut up. Your foolish attempt at wit only shows everyone what state of mind you are in. No one here is silly enough to think that Rosemary had an actual premonition or psychic episode, but it's not because of pre-concieved notions, it's because of where the evidence leads us.
 
Shut up, Tai Chi, just shut up.

Ah. Must be the new logic that the organized skeptical movement followers are learning? :)

No one here is silly enough to think that Rosemary had an actual premonition or psychic episode,

And? The issue was about if she addressed the million dollar challenge offer or not. She has already. She clearly has made statements that she is not interested in it, for various reasons. Well, statements clear to anyone that can think for themselves, that is.
 
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And that has no relevance whatsoever on the claim of her supposedly not addressing the million dollar challenge offer.

Yes it does. The challenge is one (of a number, I'm sure) of ways for her to verify or falsify her abilities. She should either do this (or a similar test) or stop taking money from desperate people for abilities which are likely to be false. As Sylvia Browne has ably demonstrated, as well as taking money from people there's also the risk of misleading them and causing a great deal of extra disruption and pain.
 
A test for Ms Altea's "abilities" has to preclude the possibility of her using cold and hot reading.

Definitely.

Entertainers such as Ian Rowland have, can, and do achive the same results as "psychics" through perfectly explainable means.

Where are scientific studies of cold readers doing this, so we know, for sure, they are acheiving the "same" results?

If she is anything more than deluded or a fraud, she just has to demonstrate the ability to do what she says she does.

No, actually she doesn't have to do anything that you, or anyone else, request of her. Why would you believe she would have to?
 
Yes it does.

No, it doesn't. In fact, it has no bearing, especially since she has already expressed her disinterest in the challenge. She doesn't seem to hold it in high regard.

She should either do this (or a similar test) or stop taking money from desperate people for abilities which are likely to be false.

Your "taking" is simply an emotional way for you to describe the act of a willing client coming to her, her quoting her rates, the client agreeing, and the money and service being exhanged.
 
Maybe he got a hair cut?
;)
Oh, you forgot the "ethnicity-lift." :(

Brilliant! You've managed to render the million dollar challenge null and void. So why should anyone (outside of the organized skeptical movement) consider it for more than 2 seconds if it can be dismissed so easily?
Newsflash, T'ai Chi, and this will brighten your day without a doubt. It turns out that James Randi--not NMJ--is in charge of the JREF Million Dollar Challenge. It's somewhat disconcerting that someone with so many posts as you is unaware of this fact, but there it is.

So buck up, ChiChi! Randi is quite open to the possibilities. Yea, he is so enthused toward finding demonstrable paranormal phenomena that he's willing to pay $1M te see it! Isn't that exciting?
 
And? The issue was about if she addressed the million dollar challenge offer or not. She has already. She clearly has made statements that she is not interested in it, for various reasons. Well, statements clear to anyone that can think for themselves, that is.

Yes, and that reason is because she knows she doesn't have superpowers.
 
Where are scientific studies of cold readers doing this, so we know, for sure, they are acheiving the "same" results?

This is just idiotic. It's the same as trying to shift the burden of evidence upon those who doubt. Psychic phenomena is not established as being anything other than trickery. It's up to psychics to prove that they have superpowers, not for everyone else to prove that superpowers can be replicated by mundane means.
 
Larry said long compared to his (Larry's) own hair.

And he was wrong. Devlin's hair length is even shorter than King's.

And that has no relevance whatsoever on the claim of her supposedly not addressing the million dollar challenge offer.

Rubbish. It has everything to do with it.

Brilliant! You've managed to render the million dollar challenge null and void. So why should anyone (outside of the organized skeptical movement) consider it for more than 2 seconds if it can be dismissed so easily?

Such ignorant arguments are way too easy to shoot down. Electricity would be considered supernatural a few hundred years ago, yet it isn't.

Either or fallacy. You apparently have a strong, strong need to disbelieve people when they say they aren't interested or don't consider something very worthy (probaby going by the track record of the skeptical movement).

You clearly have a strong, strong need to defend anyone with claimed paranormal abilities, regardless of how much pain and suffering they cause.

Randi himself said to avoid wheel-spinning, yet you want him to do that very thing? They'd just go back and forth

Yes or No?
I've already told you my reasons why your challenge is garbage.
Yes or No?
I've already told you my reasons why your challenge is garbage.
Yes or No?
I've already told you my reasons why your challenge is garbage.
Yes or No?
I've already told you my reasons why your challenge is garbage.
(repeat)

All she had to do was say "No". Yet, she didn't.

Now, why not? A simple "No", and it would have been all over. Instead, she chose to blabber incessantly, so the time would pass, without her having to either give a clear refusal or face a "Rosemary Clock", had she agreed.

She dodged, Justin. And you are all too eager to let her do it.

Ah. Must be the new logic that the organized skeptical movement followers are learning? :)

You include yourself in this "organized skeptical movement" you keep referring to. Only when you don't. :rolleyes:

And? The issue was about if she addressed the million dollar challenge offer or not. She has already. She clearly has made statements that she is not interested in it, for various reasons. Well, statements clear to anyone that can think for themselves, that is.

Yes, indeed. Anyone being able to think for themselves can see through her evasiveness and refusal to actually admit that she won't take the challenge because she knows she can't pass it. Not because the challenge is unfair, but because she can't talk to dead people.

Definitely.

Yet, when she did get together with scientists, she didn't like that either. She simply refuse to be tested by anyone (she can't control), even though she herself speaks of "evidence".

Where are scientific studies of cold readers doing this, so we know, for sure, they are acheiving the "same" results?

You are perfectly aware that to do such a study, you would have to cheat grieving people into believing that the cold readers could actually talk to dead people.

It would be highly unethical to do so. You know this, but ignore it, only so you can take cheap shots at skeptics. And, by doing so, you actively support the psychics who scam grieving people. Only you know that they are scam artists.

No, actually she doesn't have to do anything that you, or anyone else, request of her. Why would you believe she would have to?

Because she has an obligation to those grieving people she tells she can get in touch with their dead relatives?

Have you no decency at all?

You're mistaken.

See the quotes I've posted. She's clearly stated her disinterest in the challenge.

Because she knows she can't pass it, yes. Even though she knows - and you know - that the JREF Challenge would be far easier to pass than a scientific test. And you allow her to get away with it.
 
Your "taking" is simply an emotional way for you to describe the act of a willing client coming to her, her quoting her rates, the client agreeing, and the money and service being exhanged.

Not particularly emotive - I would have said 'defrauding', but I can't know for sure whether Altea is deliberately faking her 'powers' or has deluded herself into believing that she really has superpowers. Hell, it's even possible she really has superpowers - but I see no convincing evidence for that, and plenty for the first two possibilities.
 
No one here is silly enough to think that Rosemary had an actual premonition or psychic episode, but it's not because of pre-concieved notions, it's because of where the evidence leads us.

Well stated - I (like I'm sure many) would be willing to consider any actual (scientific/real) evidence. Critical thinking isn't about swallowing what what your're told or trying to prove a negative...it is about looking at the evidence (or lack there of) presented and making an informed choice about what to believe. I hope Randi and skeptics everywhere continue to challenge those who set out to decieve - and not to let them off the hook without a fight!
 
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto
A test for Ms Altea's "abilities" has to preclude the possibility of her using cold and hot reading.

Definitely.

Yes.

Entertainers such as Ian Rowland have, can, and do achive the same results as "psychics" through perfectly explainable means.

Where are scientific studies of cold readers doing this, so we know, for sure, they are acheiving the "same" results?

Well, there aren't any as far as I know. But acknowledged cold readers do convince the the uneducated that they are "psychic". People for whom Rowland has "read" claim he is as much as 99% accurate.

If she is anything more than deluded or a fraud, she just has to demonstrate the ability to do what she says she does.

No, actually she doesn't have to do anything that you, or anyone else, request of her. Why would you believe she would have to?

Do I say she had to to anything for me? What she claims to do looks exactly like a cold reading to me. If she says it is something different, why should anyone believe her if she cannot show that difference?
 
Randi missed an opportunity to ask Rosemary how one could tell a genuine psychic from a fraud. I would've loved to hear her answer to that.

So would I, Prewitt81. Good point.

I watched the show with my wife and daughter. They were interested in seeing Randi after my trip to TAM5. Both were bothered by his confrontational demeanor. After a while *I* was tired of hearing about the challenge. What BillyJoe was saying seemed dead-on to me.
Unfortunately, Larry King is a lousy interviewer and a worse mediator. He still has a show for what he has done in the past, not for what he can do now. He should have given Randi as much time as Altea. Next time I hope Randi supplies King with the documentation on the challenge and asks for just 30 uninterrupted seconds to make a few points to rebut Althea, who lied about the challenge:
"The million dollars does exist, it's with Goldman Sachs. Larry, you have the paperwork before you that proves that.
"I don't devise the test, the claimant does that, in consultation with a panel of experts I convene. She won't take the test until she's happy with the conditions.
"The testing is done in two stages, a preliminary stage and a final stage. So far, no one has gotten past the preliminary stage, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
"If the claimant performs as she says she can, she wins the milliion dollars. Simple as that."

That's a rough start, but you can see how he could make those points. Larry King is such an empty vessel that I don't think it would happen. On Anderson Cooper, maybe.
 
jon,

This is more about Randi than yourself....

...I can't know for sure whether Altea is deliberately faking her 'powers' or has deluded herself into believing that she really has superpowers.
And I bet you believe it's one or other of these two don't you?.

Hell, it's even possible she really has superpowers..
But you don't really believe this do you?

..but I see no convincing evidence for that, and plenty for the first two possibilities.
That's right.


The thing is, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that you really are open to the third possibility. You are not are you? And neither is Randi. He has long since passed the point of seriously entertaining the idea that psychic powers might exist. But then why does he not say so. It's easy: "I believe that psychics are either fakes or self-deluded, because in ?50 years not a single one of them has been able to prove they have the ability". Why pretend that he is just waiting for someone to show him convincingly that they have psychic powers. He clearly is not. He is waiting to prove that they do not have them.
 
BillyJoe
You are probably right as far as you go. However you must be careful not to close your mind to things that appear to be wrong but are not wrong. The number of times my opinion has been rejected out of hand only to be proved right is not funny.

Like if I told you that I can get 1 + 1 = 3 what would you say? Reject it out of hand? I mean it goes against everything you have been taught on the subject.

But I can do it. And so can you. In short you must always keep open the possibility that one of your core beliefs is wrong. If only on a technicality.
 
rjh01,

Again, this was more about Randi but...

You are probably right as far as you go. However you must be careful not to close your mind to things that appear to be wrong but are not wrong.
You are probably right as well, but hands up any sceptics here who think there is any possibility whatsoever that a psychic is going to take that prize one day - and thereby prove that psychic phenomena are real.

Like if I told you that I can get 1 + 1 = 3 what would you say? Reject it out of hand? I mean it goes against everything you have been taught on the subject.
Neat trick but, Goddamn, I can't remember it.

But I can do it. And so can you. In short you must always keep open the possibility that one of your core beliefs is wrong. If only on a technicality.
I don't about losing on a technicality - most people are pretty annoyed when that happens. But, yeah, always keep open the possibility that one of your core beliefs is wrong. I agree. But...I dunno, I still can't see a psychic ever winning that prize? Can you?
 
T'ai Chi,

I'm still a newblet on this board, and as a believer in God I'm certainly not going to be lumped in with true skeptics very often.

So believe me when I tell you I'd LOVE for psychic ability to be real. Hell, I'll even grant you the "science can't accurately measure the paranormal because it exists outside of science" argument... leaving open that possibility that until something can be disproved there's a real chance that it does exist.

The problem is that there is SOOOOO much tangible, real evidence that psychic ability is bunk... and not so much as a single documented account of even a personal anecdote about any psychic ever that has held up to any scrutiny once the facts were looked at objectively.

Not ONE!

And what makes the whole profession look so downright dishonest is that when something the entire community knows at a glance is not on the up and up, they ignore it, dismiss it, or have a pat answer that skirts around the issue entirely.

Rosemary's a great case in point. Repeatedly she uses the analogy of how bad doctors don't mean that the entire medical profession is a sham, but then in the same breath refuses to villify Sylvia or even so much as speculate on her motives. What blows apart her analogy is that the medical profession doesn't go out of their way to protect bad doctors. They do everything they can to weed them out.

And of course there's the other difference between doctors and psychics: Doctors would never say "we can't be right 100% of the time" to anyone without being sure to mention that beforehand. And no doctor who had a patient with a 50% chance of survival would tell him anything as matter-of-factly as Sylvia did with those parents while never batting an eyelash.

Police pyshic detective shows are another stellar example. Anyone who has gone back and looked at ANY case on ANY police psychic show has found out real quickly that the evidence doesn't match what is being presented to the viewer. Where's the outrage by the psychic community? Where is anyone who will speak out against the blatant dishonesty going on by their "superstars" by someone who would rather they focused on the actual success stories they've had without having to resort to... at the very least... massive embellishment?

When no one in the profession is pointing out the fraud going on right in front of their eyes and instead do nothing but blindly bash those who point it out, it doesn't take Scotland Yard to figure out it's because they're committing the same fraud.

Be it the psychic hotlines (I went to film school in Lauderdale with a guy who worked for the fat Jamaican lady one. He never let me see the script but he certainly never claimed to have any psychic powers either. It was just a job to him), the TV shows, or anything else in the genre: It's not that there's fraud going on in the industry that makes it a scam..

...it's the fact that no "legitimate" psychics have ever been able to clearly demonstrate exactly what they do that is in any way different from how the scammers do it.
 
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...The problem is that there is SOOOOO much tangible, real evidence that psychic ability is bunk... and not so much as a single documented account of even a personal anecdote about any psychic ever that has held up to any scrutiny once the facts were looked at objectively...

Rosemary's a great case in point. Repeatedly she uses the analogy of how bad doctors don't mean that the entire medical profession is a sham, but then in the same breath refuses to villify Sylvia or even so much as speculate on her motives. What blows apart her analogy is that the medical profession doesn't go out of their way to protect bad doctors. They do everything they can to weed them out...

...It's not that there's fraud going on in the industry that makes it a scam...it's the fact that no "legitimate" psychics have ever been able to clearly demonstrate exactly what they do that is in any way different from how the scammers do it.

Well said, Drudgewire. As a corollary to your point, another difference between doctors and psychics is that doctors are held to a set of professional standards that involve verifiable, observable, measurable results (in addition to ethical standards). Psychics aren't held to any set of standards that I know of -- not by "legitimates", as you point out, and certainly not by any professonal psychic association, with a published set up ethics and a review board. Haven't heard of "psychical" licenses, either; at least none issued by a government-recognized board.

I think that my biggest problem with "psychic powers" is that it glosses over what -- I think -- is the more miraculous ability of all human beings: the human being is, in my mind, the most sophisticated pattern-seeking machine in the world. We humans have the capability to pull the most profound insights out of absolutely nothing at all (well, and BS too, but that's another story).

This ability is innate. It allows us to be problem-solvers, to invent, to come up with connections and conclusions that are mindblowing. It gives birth to both art and science (and religion). We're constantly trying to pull pattern out of chaos and sometimes, intuitively, we manage to actually find a signal there, to come up with completely intuitive solutions for something considered insolvable.

My dismay at the psychic crowd is that, for the most part (because this is a sweeping generalization), they touch on the pattern-seeking ability /but then go no farther/. "I can talk to angels!" "I can talk to dead people!" "I can talk to God!" "I have a psychic connection to other human beings!" And it stops there. I don't see much attempt at scholarship other than coming up with elaborate feel-good hypotheses about their special powers -- I see no actual drive to experiement, to test, to find out the true limits and source of their abilities (which I think is pattern-seekiness) and, in that way, to find out ways to train and hone their ability. It's like they have a special talent in pattern-seekiness but then just stop right there, stuck with no means of self-improvement because they think they've already got all the answers they need.

Some people find they have this knack and instead of thinking they are psychic, know that they have some higher-than-average ability to sense patterns -- they train themselves very carefully, using time-tested techniques, to maximize their abilities. These people are our detectives, our profilers, our scientists, our musicians, our artists, our psychologists, or any one of the amazing number of professions which produce results in an observably positive way (that's another generalization, of course; there are bad detectives, scientists, profilers, etc -- we're all humans).

And what's worse, because the "psychic arts" /inherently/ shun any kind of systematic, careful questioning and observation, there is /no means/ to prevent or minimize things like Sylvia Browne telling people that their dead children are alive or their living children are dead.

No wonder this Forum is often perceived as a hotbed of rudeness and intolerance. I'm actually amazed it's not worse than it is.
 
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Some people find they have this knack and instead of thinking they are psychic, know that they have some higher-than-average ability to sense patterns -- they train themselves very carefully, using time-tested techniques, to maximize their abilities. These people are our detectives, our profilers, our scientists, our musicians, our artists, our psychologists, or any one of the amazing number of professions which produce results in an observably positive way
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