The Bible is 100% true and to be read literally

The neat thing is that he also has a purpose for us. (oops, here I am preaching again...and I'm not a preacher... really.)

You're not a scientist, either. Your argument about the Grand Canyon is just bunk. And you've demonstrated no understanding at all of how evolution really works.

If you want to be educated in the topic, then read some books written by scientists. If you want to remain uneducated, then continue as you have.
 
Tell me, 2LifeGuy, do you think Adam was physically strong? I don't mean super-strong or anything, just reasonably buff, like a young adult today who works out three days a week at a gym? Do you think he was dextrous, good with his hands? Do you think he was clever, good at solving problems, brave, resourceful? Could he run reasonably fast? Did he have good eyesight? Good endurance? Did he have a good immune system? Would a young woman from today (post-Fall) likely find him attractive?

If your answer to any of these is no, then you'd have to explain to me how the "genetic degredation" or "effects of entropy" Creationists usually say happened after, and as a result of, the fall led to the development of these improved qualities. But I rather suspect your answer will be yes.

Assuming your answer is yes, then I ask: why?

There was no strife in Eden, so Adam had no need to be strong or fast. There was no need for toil, so Adam had no need of strength or endurance. There were no problems to solve or dangers to face, so Adam had no need of resourcefulness, courage, or really, any intelligence at all. There was no disease, so he had no need of an immune system. Sex was not supposed to be necessary, so Adam had no reason to be physically attractive to a woman.

In fact, there was only one thing that Adam was required to do in Eden, which was obey. And he didn't do that very well, did he?

So, if Adam was designed, it was the stupidest design in the history of design. He was designed to be able to do a whole bunch of things that he wasn't supposed to ever have to do, and the one thing he was supposed to have to do, he wasn't designed well enough to accomplish.

Looking at the "degenerated" descendents of Adam and Eve, it certainly doesn't appear that humans were designed to live in a garden free of trouble, danger, and toil. Strong maneuverable forelimbs, opposable thumbs, binocular vision, clever minds good at inventing new things, immune systems, robust omnivorous digestive systems, and countless other features indicate that we were well-designed to survive in the natural world.

Which is exactly how one would expect humans to be, if we were in fact "designed" by evolution.

So take your pick: either God designed humans all wrong as described literally in Genesis and is clearly inept; God designed humans well but Genesis lies to us about what we were really designed for; God designed humans to live in a garden but humans got a lot stronger, smarter, braver, faster, nimbler, and more capable after the Fall (by evolution, perhaps?), or God created humans by evolution in the first place and Genesis is allegory.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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IIRC, you're refering to the Monarch ButterflyWP and Viceroy butterflyWP.

That's the one. Thanks.

God made humans with a free will. So true freedom is to have the ability to choose right or wrong. Wrong choices bring imperfection to a once perfect world. The first choice opposite God's plan was with the tree in the Garden. The Bible indicates that ALL of creation became cursed as a result.

Your cancer may not be a result of your own bad choices (however we do know from science that some cancers do come from bad choices), but creation is no longer perfect because of the bad choice of one man...Adam. Yes, it sounds naive. But it is truth... (I know...it's not PC to say something is truth. BUT if there really is truth...)

So we're all cursed because one guy made one mistake? Why would you want to believe in a god like that? That's like saying, "That cat pissed on the bed again. I think I'm going to go out and cut the tails off all the cats in the world."

Actually you sort of make my point by saying, "It was MEANT to go into..." Who meant for it to? The designer. The plane obviously has a designer.

I'm just saying earth is the same. When you see a screw and a nut, and they fit, and they work, you know somebody made it and had a purpose. God has a purpose too in his creation. The neat thing is that he also has a purpose for us. (oops, here I am preaching again...and I'm not a preacher... really.)

Ah, but that same screw might fit several different places. And through trial and error, you might find one particular place where it goes that actually does some good, i.e. holds two pieces together.

(Now that I look back on it, I think I've made a poor analogy. I can't identify my logical fallacy, but I know I've made one.)

(BTW, LifeGuy, the above sentence is the main difference between a believer/CTer/fanatic, and a scientist/skeptic. The latter is willing to accpet the possibility that he/she has made a mistake, if evidence proves contrary.)
 
There was a worldwide flood according to the Bible. (a miracle in the timing if nothing else) I choose this one because I think that many who believe the Bible, believe this was literal, and many who believe evolution do not believe this was literal.

Simple question then: Where did the water go? Did god just suck it up with a straw? If there was ever enough water to flood the whole planet, it can't have been here before the flood, and it can't have been here after.
 
I've been following this exchange and all I see is the argument from ignorance.

2LifeGuy, believe it or not, people actually understand in tremendous detail without room for doubt how evolution works. .

I said the same thing once. I know they understand the basics of their own theories. The surprise was that they really don't have evidence for the things they say are "understood." The guy that did the forward for "Origin of the Species" 100th anniversary said that "evolution is unproved and unprovable, and that we believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."

I know that was sometime after world war II, but the fact that there is little evidence is still true... and, surprised me as well.
 
So we're all cursed because one guy made one mistake? Why would you want to believe in a god like that? That's like saying, "That cat pissed on the bed again. I think I'm going to go out and cut the tails off all the cats in the world."


Is this a reference to circumcision?

:eek:
 
I said the same thing once. I know they understand the basics of their own theories. The surprise was that they really don't have evidence for the things they say are "understood." The guy that did the forward for "Origin of the Species" 100th anniversary said that "evolution is unproved and unprovable, and that we believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."

I know that was sometime after world war II, but the fact that there is little evidence is still true... and, surprised me as well.

What guy said that? 2life please provide a proper citation for this quote.

Arguing by what you heard someone else say about something isn't going to cut it here.

But, here I'll show you how it is done:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-4.html#quote81

"Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation which is unthinkable." (Keith, Arthur, forward to 100th anniversary edition of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species, 1959)

The quote that is attributed to Sir Arthur Keith is a figment of the creationists imagination. I researched that quote a month or two ago and could not find a trace of it. No library in the Atlanta metro area has this particular edition and neither Amazon nor Barnes and Noble has this edition. I am in nine newsgroups and no one in these NGs had a copy or had ever seen one. A search of the internet showed many references for this quote but every one of them was from a creationist site. It is also amazing because that Sir Arthur died in 1955 and the 100th anniversary edition would not have been issued until 1959. Tell me, did "God" write this for Sir Arthur from heaven?

- Tom


So you just propogated more urband legend instead of an argument.
 
Is this a reference to circumcision?

:eek:

No, it's a reference to the idea that, in lording it over a species, a loving and caring god would condemn all those that follow forever for the one mistake the first member of the species made. I've always found the idea of original sin to be one of the more ridiculous ones of the Christian faith.
 
" The guy that did the forward for "Origin of the Species" 100th anniversary said that "evolution is unproved and unprovable, and that we believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."

As I recall, this is an urban legend. Does anyone has anything definitive on it, one way or the other?
 
2LifeGuy
BUT if population only doubled every 20 years, within 180 years, total births would hit 1024. The Bible states original human life spans of hundreds of years.
Check your figures and assumptions. This is patently incorrect.
Creationist Claim CB620:

While it is unacceptable NOW for brother and sisters to marry, this was not God's law until 2,500 years after the creation.
Cite. (This is actually a question to see if you’re actually familiar with the bible, but I’m still expecting an answer.)

Biblically, all human life came from Adam and Eve. (That is easier to swallow than the population of the world descending from nonliving matter...or jellyfish...or apes.) At least on this point the Bible does not contradict itself.
Actually, according to the bible, that would be Noah and his family as the most recent bottleneck. You have to calculate population from that point. Check out NOAH'S BUNNIES. Or for the same creationist method of calculation; from here:

Ted Krapkat has improved upon my argument by applying the creationist logic directly to the human population:
If we create a simple formula using today's population of ~6 billion, and figure in the starting population (8 individuals), and the starting time (4360 YBP), we get an annual growth rate of about 0.0047. Since that IS what happened, according to creationists, and it IS the only possible explanation for today's human population then...
(a) At Christ's death there were only about half a million people in the whole world!
(b) At the time the Israelites entered Canaan, (about 1180 BCE) we get a world population of 2024! By the time you divide that up between Egypt, Canaan, the rest of the world, and Israel, that leaves maybe 6 or 7 people for the Israelite army!
(c) If we go back to the time that the Jews were expelled from Egypt, in 1560 BCE, we get a world population of only 340 people!
(d) In 2300 BCE there were only about 10 people on Earth! How did fewer than a dozen people build the pyramids?

Ossai
 
Simple question then: Where did the water go? Did god just suck it up with a straw? If there was ever enough water to flood the whole planet, it can't have been here before the flood, and it can't have been here after.

A worldwide flood would be devestating. And what brought it on? The Bible says the springs of the deep were broken open. If enough water came from those springs to flood the earth, if pressure was released on a volcanic scale, the water retreated to the sunk down ocean basin after it was over. If you ever look at a topographical map of the midatlantic ridge, it indicates a huge and uniform upheaval...you can even see parallel ridges both east and west of the ridge running all the way from north to south. The other upheavals from a destruction like this...where water is erupted along the entire ridge, could displace a global flood with newly formed mountain ranges, while the mid Antantic basic sunk. So I think much of the water is still with us, found in newer deeper oceans... but that is my opinion... and you know what they say about those!
 
Thanks, FS. Did I get hoodwinked by the end of the page again? I thought I had read to the end of the thread.
 
The guy that did the forward for "Origin of the Species" 100th anniversary said that "evolution is unproved and unprovable, and that we believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."

Do you have any evidence for this besides your pastor, or the Living Waters web site?

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Keith_on_evolution_being_unproven_and_unprovable
Original Quote

This seems to be an invention. There is no original quote to be found, only creationist sites quoting it.


ETA:
Damn, I'm too slow. I was googling for more evidence one way or the other, and posted before reading the last 15 minutes of the thread. Sorry
 
Is anyone else surprised that this guy is making all the same mistakes as jesus_freak in actually trusting Creationist websites to tell him the truth just because they're 'god-fearing'?

No? Didn't think so. Wonder if he'll learn after the 2327th time not to trust these lying sumufabitches.
 
I'm sorry, but this is wrong. "Look, a screw. And here's a nut. Looks like one was meant to go into the other. And they are both big enough to fit into this hole here, which would hold this piece on...."

Granted, it would take a lot of time to figure it out. But evolution had plenty of time.


.

Right, but you would be figuring out a design that was THERE, not how the plane spontaneously formed itself from nothing.
 
Right, but you would be figuring out a design that was THERE, not how the plane spontaneously formed itself from nothing.

2Life, as a number of other users have stated, your plane analogy is an exceptionally bad one. Planes do not evolve, are not alive, and in fact share very few characteristics with living things.

I recommend you reconsider this analogy.
 

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