Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[kitakaze]

If you really wanted to get some BF dermatoglyphs why not just set a bait trap with fruit or dirty socks or whatever they're into in a plexiglass box in such a way that they have to handle the box a bit to get the goods? Maybe even chuck a Rubick's Cube in there just to mess with 'em a bit. If they didn't eat it or keep to throw at some hiker it'd be a bucket o' dermals.

 

[tube]

Were you wearing geta? That clean separation of the sand of the ridge and the wall of the track on the left side sure is funky. I don't know what to make of it.

Geta? Wow, I wonder what that's like to really wear something like that! When I was in Holland some years ago I really did see someone wearing wooden shoes... I guess people around the world still wear wooden feet! Amazing...

Naw, I'm wearing good old fashioned plastic foam feet here. I'm simply trying to illustrate that these mid-foot pressure ridges do not need a "mid-tarsal break" to create them:

 

[kitakaze]

Tube, forgive me as I'm way to lazy to go check right now but didn't Meldrum suggest a great amount of flexibility of the toes having something to do with tracks where they seemed to dig in?

 

[kitakaze]

Geta? Wow, I wonder what that's like to really wear something like that! When I was in Holland some years ago I really did see someone wearing wooden shoes... I guess people around the world still wear wooden feet! Amazing...

I can run in them but you gotta clench your toes like heck and of course it hurts like heck too. That's the sound of summer here, the clippety-clop of geta.

ETA: Nice gams, Tube.

 

[LAL]

- Around the time of her submitting the report (2002) there were a number of reports submitted from NY State which may have been a factor in submitting her own report.

Or, 2002 just happened to be the year she found the BFRO website.

I noticed some of the reports you linked to are from Whitehall. A friend of mine had a "not sure" encounter there.

NY isn't all city.

 

[LAL]

Tube, forgive me as I'm way to lazy to go check right now but didn't Meldrum suggest a great amount of flexibility of the toes having something to do with tracks where they seemed to dig in?

He says the toes are proportionately longer and more prehensile than human toes. The "peas-in-a-pod" look is caused by them being clenched.

The Laverty photo gave him the idea of mid-tarsal bending, but it's the half tracks that show it.

"Perhaps the most significant observation relating to this trackway was the evidence of a pronounced flexibility in the midtarsal joint. Several examples of midfoot pressure ridges indicate a greater range of flexion at the transverse tarsal joint than permitted in the normal human tarsus. This is especially manifest in the footprint figured below, in which a heel impression is absent. Evidently, the hindfoot was elevated at the time of contact by the midfoot. Due to the muddy conditions, the foot slipped backward, as indicated by the toe slide-ins, and a ridge of mud was pushed up behind the midtarsal region."

http://www.isu.edu/~meldd/fxnlmorph.html

These are Don Abbott photos from Blue Creek/Onion Mountain and a diagram:

 

[desertyeti]

Great photos Tube!
The images clearly show that assuming a moving "foot" real or fake is involved, the greatest depth of the print is associated with the area of greatest downwards force. In Tube's photos, the greatest depth is located (naturally) below the ball of his own foot, but this translates into the flexible fake as being just caudal (backwards) of the "ball." This is exactly what is seen in the casts and photos of the Patterson "creature." It strongly suggests that prosthetic, flexible feet were attached to a person's own feet, and the resulting imprint created Meldrum's purported "mid-tarsal break" which he alone claims to see in the Laetoli prints. (As an aside, Chris Stringer, Ian Tatersall, Don Johanson, Richard Leakey, and Tim White, among others have all published descriptions of the Laetoli tracks that indicate rigid, flexed transverse and longitudinal arches).

Never the less, Tube's correctly pointed out also that fake feet almost always leave deeper toe marks than the real deal. This is precicely because the toes in a real foot are mobile at the phalangeal-metatarsal joint. The greatest downward stress is usually placed on the distal metatarsal, not the toe tip. This is true of humans, apes, and even bears. It arms one with a key "red flag" to look for in examining sets of tracks and/or casts. Namely, if the toes are dug in deeper than the rest of the foot...very possible forgery!

 

[LAL]

Namely, if the toes are dug in deeper than the rest of the foot...very possible forgery!

Like this?

 

[kitakaze]

Or, 2002 just happened to be the year she found the BFRO website.

Who knows? Maybe we should ask Sweaty. If more people would be kind enough to disclose their real names and addresses in reports he could provide us with tons more 'evidence'.

I noticed some of the reports you linked to are from Whitehall. A friend of mine had a "not sure" encounter there.

Yes, quite a few of the reports from the NY section should be called 'not sure'.

 

[LAL]

As an aside, Chris Stringer, Ian Tatersall, Don Johanson, Richard Leakey, and Tim White, among others have all published descriptions of the Laetoli tracks that indicate rigid, flexed transverse and longitudinal arches)[/COLOR].

Are you aware the foot reconstruction is being questioned because some bones of Homo habiliswere used? New candidate is Australopithecus anamensis.

Dr. Meldrum mentioned consulting with Dr. White to see if he thought the ridge could have been caused by burrowing insects.

But what do I know? I can't even find a color plate of a three-toed track in any of Green's books. I just got Dahinden/Hunter. It's not in there either, nor is it in Byrne. So what book did it come from? And what's this about OM soil being volcanic ash?

 

[LAL]

Who knows? Maybe we should ask Sweaty. If more people would be kind enough to disclose their real names and addresses in reports he could provide us with tons more 'evidence'.Yes, quite a few of the reports from the NY section should be called 'not sure'.

Is there some reason the NY can't have sightings? The town of Whitehall only has a population of about 2600. Check what's around the town:

 

[kitakaze]

Are you aware the foot reconstruction is being questioned because some bones of Homo habiliswere used? New candidate is Australopithecus anamensis.

Dr. Meldrum mentioned consulting with Dr. White to see if he thought the ridge could have been caused by burrowing insects.

But what do I know? I can't even find a color plate of a three-toed track in any of Green's books. I just got Dahinden/Hunter. It's not in there either, nor is it in Byrne. So what book did it come from? And what's this about OM soil being volcanic ash?

Is this line of questioning somehow supportive of dermal claims?

 

[desertyeti]

Of course not!
LAL's confused because I posted a color photo of a 3-toed track from Pennsylvania, which is also figured in John Green's book as a B&W photo. But she can't make the connection that photos come in both B&W and color, depending on the medium. Apparently for her, if it's not in a book, it ain't real!

Also, she seems to not understand the difference between the trackway data from Laetoli to which I was referring above, and the unrelated osteological data to which she appeals.

As for the volcanics in Onion Mtn., she's plainly not aware of the soil reports and geolgocial maps of the area which depict a variety of igneous and metasedimentary strata of Mesozoic and Cenozoic age. Igneous rocks are volcanic (igneous as in ignition, derived from the Latin for fire). She apparently does not benefit from the geological maps of the area which also depict a variety of volcanic extrusive deposits (tuffs, rhyolites, and ashes).

As usual, she's trying to imply that because I disagree with Meldrum's interpretations, I'm somehow being evasive and dishonest. ETA: Perhaps it's the mustache...maybe I should grow a ca. 1982 Magnum P.I. lip-tickler, then the BF-fans would like me better!

Back to it:

 

[kitakaze]

Is there some reason the NY can't have sightings? The town of Whitehall only has a population of about 2600. Check to the west:

Maybe if I'm one of the proponents who puts their eggs in a PNW basket. If you're asking me personally, why would I make the effort to compile the list? I said make your own deductions, I didn't make a point of mine. If I did I would have said check to the east.

 

[LAL]

Is this line of questioning somehow supportive of dermal claims?

You asked DY for a source for the 3-toed photo and he gave you one, only the photo isn't in the book. He's also stated OM soil is volcanic ash with organic matter, but Melissa's sources say otherwise. Neither Matt nor Melissa got "Crowley lines" using the actual soil from Oninon Mountain, last I saw. So how is it established everything on that cast is a casting artifact?

DY hasn't retracted, but it would appear he's wrong on a couple of things. Do you just accept everything he says without question?

 

[kitakaze]

DY hasn't retracted, but it would appear he's wrong on a couple of things. Do you just accept everything he says without question?

No, I just use my eyes and some common sense. Maybe you could point me towards something that actually looks like dermals. If it's not so difficult maybe some successive tracks displaying those matching dermals? Unless in every case there's just one.

 

[desertyeti]

What should I retract?
That LAL doesn't agree that the cast in Green's book is the same as the color photo I posted? Sorry. It is.
Maybe that she doesn't know that the Onion Mtn. soil has a high ash content and detrital clay minerals? Sorry. It does.
Perhaps that the Laetoli prints show no evidence of a mid-tarsal break? Sorry, they don't.

In her on-going crusade to disagree with everything I say, she's continuing to expose the personal nature of her disagreements and is unfortunately failing the first test evey first-year college student learns in basic science classes: Do your research and back your claims not with opinions from others, but with verifiable data.
She also has an on-going (possible pathological) problem with understanding terms like "possible," "probably," "usually," etc.

Part of a soil report from the Onion Mountain area (clay loam in this case refers to volcanic-based clays like kaolinite, illite, smectite, or as the common folk also call it: ash) Bold is my emphasis:

Brief Soil Descriptions (CA)
Six Rivers National Forest Area, California
[446hd - Burroin-Bagaul-Redtop complex, 15 to 50 percent slopes]
Representative soil profile: Available Water SAR
Capacity (inches) pH Salinity SAR
Horizon -- Depth (inches) Texture
Oi -- 0 to 1 Slightly decomposed 0.3 to 0.6 4.5 to 5.8 0 - 0 0 - 0
plant material
A -- 1 to 10 Loam 1.5 to 1.6 5.3 to 6.0 0 - 0 0 - 0
Bt1 -- 10 to 20 Clay loam 1.7 to 2.1 5.3 to 6.0 0 - 0 0 - 0
Bt2 -- 20 to 33 Clay loam 2.1 to 2.6 5.0 to 5.7 0 - 0 0 - 0
Bt3 -- 33 to 43 Clay loam 1.8 to 2.2 5.0 to 5.7 0 - 0 0 - 0
Bt4 -- 43 to 62 Clay loam 3.1 to 3.9 5.0 to 5.7 0 - 0 0 - 0

Should also point out that cinder cones (which spew ash) in the area (Mt. Shasta and surrounding areas) are common:

S. A. Mertzman Jr.1

(1) Department of Geology, Franklin and Marshall College, 17604 Lancaster, PA., USA

Received: 1 November 1976 Accepted: 13 January 1977

Abstract Recent volcanism on the northern flank of the Medicine Lake Highland consists of a series of basalt to andesite spatter and cinder cones and their associated flows. Two particular structures, Cinder Butte and Schonchin Butte, have erupted materials that are very similar in terms of age, volume, modal mineralogy, and many major and trace elements. *snip*

For general information:
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Cascades/volcanoes_cascade_range.html#shasta

 

[LAL]

Of course not!
LAL's confused because I posted a color photo of a 3-toed track from Pennsylvania, which is also figured in John Green's book as a B&W photo. But she can't make the connection that photos come in both B&W and color, depending on the medium. Apparently for her, if it's not in a book, it ain't real!

No, you said the photo is in John Green's "bible" when kitakaze asked you for the source. That photo is not in the book, either in color or B&W. There are pictures of people holding 3-toed casts, one holding a photo, and a Fouke cast on pg. 320, but there's nothing like the photo you posted. If I've somehow missed it in looking through two editions, give me the page number.

What is the actual source?

Also, she seems to not understand the difference between the trackway data from Laetoli to which I was referring above, and the unrelated osteological data to which she appeals.

Really? You assume a lot, don't you?

In one of his presentations Dr. Meldrum mentioned no one seems to have been looking for midtarsal bending. Possibly there's an assumption that if it's Homo, it's gotta have an arch.

As for the volcanics in Onion Mtn., she's plainly not aware of the soil reports and geolgocial maps of the area which depict a variety of igneous and metasedimentary strata of Mesozoic and Cenozoic age. Igneous rocks are volcanic (igneous as in ignition, derived from the Latin for fire).

Nope. I'm going by what the soil survey scientists told Mellissa. Matt used volcanic ash because John Green said the soil was like volcanic ash, evidently meaning it was that dry and fine.

She apparently does not benefit from the geological maps of the area which also depict a variety of volcanic extrusive deposits (tuffs, rhyolites, and ashes).

I haven't even looked at them. I would think a soil survey would tell more than a map. A geological map of Skamania County would show not only igneous rocks but an active volcano. As a former resident, I can assure you there wasn't much in the way of volcanic ash lying around outside the area of destruction, even though the southern part of the county got a dusting in one of the early eruptions.

As usual, she's trying to imply that because I disagree with Meldrum's interpretations, I'm somehow being evasive and dishonest.

Why do you address me in the third person? I'm not implying you're dishonest and evasive, with or without Meldrum. I'm saying you too can be wrong. And, in the above statement, you just were.

 

[desertyeti]

No, I just use my eyes and some common sense. Maybe you could point me towards something that actually looks like dermals. If it's not so difficult maybe some successive tracks displaying those matching dermals? Unless in every case there's just one.

Damn you and your common sense and logic!
Why can't you just take it on faith that Bigfoot dermals just happen to look exactly like dessication ridges and nothing at all like primate dermals?
Why can't you just open your heart to the teachings of Meldrum?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.... Namely, if the toes are dug in deeper than the rest of the foot...very possible forgery!

Like this?

No , not like that ..

The heel and ball is obviously deeper than the toes..


Next ...