Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[LAL]

According to Melissa Hovey, the last time she talked with Jimmy Chilcutt he had not changed his position on OM or the Skookum Cast. And Dr. Meldrum no longer agrees with tube. Not saying our experts can beat up your experts, but............

 

[LAL]

So when someone writes something like this after analyzing a photo, you can join me in laughing your ass off at it's utter stupidity:

Oh, my sides.....He ignored the rest of the photos of the trackway, and never mind there are other examples of half tracks where all the other prints appear to be hominid and not overlaid bear.

 

[LAL]

I wonder if some of these reports might somehow involve owls. The lemur creature of report 2405 seemed to me like it could be an owl perched in a tree.

The size of a small man? C'mon. The report just says "like a lemur", not "was a lemur".

Here's another:

"It was very large with brown fur/hair all over it's body. It was absolutely human looking. It was walking upright just like humans walk."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2278411

Owl? Good grief.

 

[tube]

Keep up the good work, Tube. I couldn't help wondering about some of the looks you get down at the beach.

Chicks dig guys with big feet...

 

[RayG]

In the case of Joyce's sighting report, it's simply a matter of weighing the probabilities of either one of only 2 possible scenarios as being the correct explanation.

Those two scenarios are....

1) They saw a real live Bigfoot....
[or]
2) Joyce made the story up....

Those are the only 2 options...like it or not.

Yegads man, can you not open your mind to any other possible explanations?

RayG

 

[SweatyYeti]

RayG wrote:

Yegads man, can you not open your mind to any other possible explanations?

Yegads, Ray....I sure can. I have an open mind.

Can you not suggest and support any other explanations that seem probable?
This here is what we call an OPEN forum....feel free to contribute, Ray!

You have a great mind...please let your thoughts spill out.....

 

[SweatyYeti]

RayG wrote:

Ah yes, I'm shaking in my fuzzy booties. Which logically-flawed questions would those be?

Dear Ray,
Enclosed are simple instructions for effectively using your new discussion board membership......

1) When asked questions.....answer them.

2) When confronted with bad logic...please provide the correct logic in your response to the allegedly bad logic.

I hope these simple-to-follow rules for intelligently and effectively discussing a topic will help you in your efforts to help solve this enduring mystery.

Sincerely,
Kevin

 

[RayG]

Yegads, Ray....I sure can. I have an open mind.

Would that be why you were hoping for a moderator-controlled, 'everybody agree with you' section of the BFF?

Would that be why you were banned from the BFF?

Would that be why you present only TWO possible scenarios for the 'Joyce' incident?

Remember, you said " Those are the only 2 options...". It's either...

a. a real bigfoot
OR
b. Joyce is a liar

Can you not suggest and support any other explanations that seem probable?

First, you have not provided support for either of your explanations. Second, I can certainly think of a few explanations that might be possible. (without a whole lot of effort too)

If you are truly unable to come up with any other possible explanations, I can give you some hints.

RayG

 

[LAL]

Chicks dig guys with big feet...

How'd Dana do editing the new edition of Meet the Sasquatch?

Is she still your girlfriend? Does she object to what you're doing on the beach?

 

[desertyeti]

Just thought I'd point out that Tube's posted some nice images of casts he's made that perfectly match the textures seen on the "Walla Walla" or "Wrinkle Foot" casts that legendary hoaxer Paul Freeman presented to Grover Krantz and Jeff Meldrum. While these two physical anthropologists convinced themselves that they were looking at either wrinkled skin (Krantz) or actual dermatoglyphic ridges (Meldrum and later, Chilcutt), Tube's simple yet elegant experiment offers up an alternative and more likely causal mechanism.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42523&page=133

Now, back to the go-nowhere debate about phone calls from strangers:

 

[LAL]

Spektator's correct.
Looking at the photo Tube posted, all I could say was: "inconclusive".

Your criteria didn't work for you either then?

 

[LAL]

The features Chilcutt found interesting on Wrinkle Foot were the tucked under edges that seem to denote scars. He talked about this on LMS and at the Willow Creek Symposium 2003. I'll do a capture later.

He examined originals, I believe, not colored copies?

Tube posted his pictures on the PGF thread. I don't know why. Shouldn't they be here?

You said this:

"Also, people who make silly claims like "Tube's tracks were made in volcaninc ash, not Onion Mtn. soil...so his results are dubious" when any soil scientist worth a damn knows that Onion Mtn. soil is composed primarily of volcanic ash with constituent organic debris!"

But:

"After these phone calls and discussions with soil survey scientists (who know what they are talking about) I have discovered the amount of volcanic ash in the soil in and around the Onion Mountain cast area is not even registered as a factor. There is no mention of this in any of the most recent reports dated 1979 and approved in 1984. These soil samples also predate the Mount St Helens erruption, and there was not an active volcano in that area during the time this cast was made."

http://txsasquatch.blogspot.com/2006/05/crowley-lines.html

Soil survey scientists aren't worth a damn?

 

[SweatyYeti]

RayG wrote:

First, you have not provided support for either of your explanations.

Actually, I have, in post #866.
Here it is...the two explanations...with support....REASONS....why the first one is the MORE LIKELY explanation....

1) They saw a real live Bigfoot....and Joyce called me, a total stranger living in another state...to share her incredible, AMAZING experience....with someone who she knew would respond to her story in a positive way. (Makes sense.)

2) Joyce made the story up....and later made a long-distance phone call to me, a total stranger, simply to tell me a pack of lies....for no apparant reason other than to lie to me. A "need for attention" is not indicated...as she took approx. a week and a half to return my call. (Does not make sense.)

You haven't even provided another probable explanation.

Second, I can certainly think of a few explanations that might be possible. (without a whole lot of effort too)

But...Ray...the trick is to POST your thoughts...not just THINK them.

You are such a bright, intelligent person, Ray.....I'm amazed that you don't understand how a discussion board works!!

If you are truly unable to come up with any other possible explanations, I can give you some hints.

GO RAY GO!! GO RAY GO!!

Actually, I gave you a personal invitation a few posts ago, to supply an alternate explanation...one that is not only "possible"...but is probable.
Here it is again.......

Yegads, Ray....I sure can. I have an open mind.

Can you not suggest and support any other explanations that seem probable?
This here is what we call an OPEN forum....feel free to contribute, Ray! You have a great mind...please let your thoughts spill out.....

Oh BOY...I think an alternate...and HIGHLY PROBABLE...explanation is on the way! I can hardly wait!

 

[RayG]

Dear Ray,
Enclosed are simple instructions for effectively using your new discussion board membership......

New membership? (RayG Join Date: Oct 2001)

I hope you're more perceptive than that when reading bigfoot reports.

1) When asked questions.....answer them.

You'll figure it out eventually... there ARE no answers when it comes to bigfoot. It can be just about anything you want it to be. (wishful-thinking is a great help in this regard).

Want it to be a primate? You got it.

15 feet tall? No problemo.

Patterson captured a real bigfoot on film? Why soitenly. Prove they didn't.

Population on the decline? Only if you want.

Range all over North America? Of course.

Omnivore? Why not?

Herbivore? If you like.

Mid-tarsel break? Single best identifier for a bigfoot track. (though there's still no actual foot)

Snapped tree-tops? Bigfoot points the way.

Bigfoot nests? What, you think humans would do that?

Tossed rocks? That Bigfoot is such a joker.

Three/four/five/six toes? Hey, bigfoot mutations/inbreeding.

What do snaps, crackles, pops, creaks, groans, whistles, burps, snorts, snarls, clicks, clacks, roars, splashes, scrapes, scratches, crunches, thuds, boinks, doinks, screeches, squeals, howls, growls, knocks, taps, and footfalls have in common? They can all signify the presence of a nearby bigfoot.

etc. etc. etc. etc.

2) When confronted with bad logic...please provide the correct logic in your response to the allegedly bad logic.

This has already been done numerous times by myself and others. Don't you find it curious that you were banned from one message forum, and called a troll and a 14-year-old on another? What do you think is the reasoning for that?

I hope these simple-to-follow rules for intelligently and effectively discussing a topic will help you in your efforts to help solve this enduring mystery.

No amount of intelligent discussion (or wishful-thinking) will solve the bigfoot mystery.

RayG

 

[kitakaze]

I hope you're more perceptive than that when reading bigfoot reports.

Apologies in advance for the further contribution to the derail concerning Joyce's phone call and Sweaty's asparagus reasoning skills.

Below is Sweaty's first post concerning Joyce followed by her original report submitted to the BFRO. I will set in bold statements of Sweaty's that are at variance with the original report.

kitakaze wrote:

Everybody's free to think and say whatever they want to when it comes to the evidence for Bigfoot.
The skeptics can dismiss it all as hoaxes, lies, and misidentifications...I personally don't care...it doesn't affect my view of the evidence.

Here is just one example of evidence that's not so paltry, though......

One fine day...while happily reading sighting reports on the Bfro website...I came across one in which the woman, Joyce, gave her full name and address in the report. She said she and her daughter were driving along...happily I might add...and after coming around a bend in the road, they saw a Bigfoot squatting beside the road, just a little ways ahead. She said it stood up and walked away into the woods, looking back at them as it did.
I called information and got her phone number, and called to talk to her directly about her sighting. Fortunately, she wasn't home ...her husband answered. I talked to him about the sighting, and he said he'd give Joyce my number, and she would call me back. I figured I'd probably never hear back from her...since it was a long-distance call, and I'm a total stranger to her.
But about a week and a half later, she did call, and she told me a little more about the sighting.
One interesting thing she said was that when they first saw it, her daughter shouted out "what the f--- is that?!".

The reason I said it was fortunate that she wasn't home when I called, is because the fact that she called me back, over a week later, gives her report much more credibility.
It's one thing if she had answered the phone when I called...maybe she wouldn't want to disappoint me, so she might just talk about her "made-up" story. But for her to bother picking-up the phone and making a long-distance call to a total stranger...there HAS to be a reason...and there are ONLY 2 possible reasons....
1) To share an amazing experience with someone who also believes Bigfoot exists...and who she would get a positive response from.
2) To lie through her teeth to a stranger, when she probably had better things to do.

Misidentification is not a possibility in her case...the sighting was in daylight, and at close range.

Some people I've told this to have said that she might just have psychological problems, and needs attention....but that explanation doesn't hold water, because she waited close to 2 weeks to even call me back. That's NOT a sign of someone who craves attention.

To me, it's STRONG evidence for Bigfoot's existence, because the most reasonable...most likely...explanation for why she called me is that she simply wanted to share the experience with someone she knew would respond positively to her sighting.

One other notable thing she said on the phone....while I was in the middle of telling her why I believe Bigfoot does exist, she interrupted and said...enthusiastically..."Oh yeah, they're real!". Sweet.

Paltry evidence...I don't think so.

Report # 5245 (Class A)
Submitted by witness Joyce Gifford on Tuesday, November 05, 2002.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sighting by mother and daughter near Kinderhook
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Show Printer-friendly Version)
YEAR: 1983

SEASON: Spring

MONTH: May

DATE: Friday

STATE: New York

COUNTY: Columbia County

LOCATION DETAILS: County Rt. 203 is off State Rt. 9W, south

NEAREST TOWN: Kinderhook, NY

NEAREST ROAD: County Rt. 203

OBSERVED:
May 1983, Kinderhook, NY (Columbia County) 5:30 - 6:00 pm.

At the corner of Rt. 203 and State Farm Rd.

My daughter and I were making a right hand turn at the cow pasture of Rt 203 and State Farm Rd. in Valatie when we saw a large (7 feet at least), hairy man-like creature. He was getting up from what appeared to be from a crouching position to a standing position. I stopped the car suddenly. It glanced our way and then took off in the oppositite direction through the cow pasture. The entire incident took less than 5 minutes.

The creature's hair color was light brown. The hair covered his face except for his eyes and mouth.

Joyce Gifford
2 Spruce Run
E. Greenbush, NY 12061


OTHER WITNESSES: One witness - my 15 year old daughter who is now 35 years old.

TIME AND CONDITIONS: Between 5:30 and 6m

Warm sunny day

ENVIRONMENT: In 1983 it was a cow pasture. Currently the area is the site of condominiums.

A few things we can reasonably infer from this:

1) Sweaty is prone to adding emotional embellishments for dramatic effect in recounting his anecdotes.

2) Sweaty couldn't properly recount basic elements of the brief report.

3) Sweaty seems to readily contact strangers who provide personal information in bigfoot reports regardless of that persons location or date of reported incident.

4) Sweaty is clearly emotionally vested in the concept of bigfoot and actively seeks out others in search of comfort and affirmation of his beliefs. (Not unlike some members of religious groups.)

5) The above emotional vestment seriously impairs Sweaty's reasoning skills.

Some questions for you, Sweaty, which you might want to consider carefully before answering:

1) Is Joyce the first person who submitted a report you contacted from the BFRO or another bigfoot related website based on personal information provided in the report?

2) Have you since been in contact with Joyce?

3) Have you examined the list of roughly contemporaneous NY reports I provided?

4) Prior to your original contact or at least prior to your first post concerning Joyce's report did you make any efforts to investigate some basic elements of that report?

5) Have you ever considered contacting Paul J Mateja? (Mr. Mateja is the BFRO's regional investigator for reports submitted from NY State. He did not conduct a follow up investigation for Joyce's report. Presumably because of the age of the claimed incident or he was not involved with the BFRO at the time of her report.)

Some important (do not read suspect) things to note concerning Joyce's report:

- Though the incident happened nearly 20 years prior to her submitting the report she gave very specific details regarding the incident.

- She provided her full name and address in her report.

- Around the time of her submitting the report (2002) there were a number of reports submitted from NY State which may have been a factor in submitting her own report.

 

[tube]

OK, for those who want to play along, what do you make of this track?

 

[tube]

This interesting mid-foot pressure ridge is seen in many if not most of these tracks.

 

[Belz...]

What good does showing pictures do on this site?LOL.

Even when you show scoftics some pics with links of bona fide caught and shot examples of alien big cats caught in the British countryside they still ignore it and scream

"Where is the evidence???"

Well, it doesn't help when the pictures are fakes.

So, any evidence, yet ?

 

[kitakaze]

OK, for those who want to play along, what do you make of this track?

Were you wearing geta? That clean separation of the sand of the ridge and the wall of the track on the left side sure is funky. I don't know what to make of it.

 

[tube]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but since toes are hinged, the ball of the foot will usually push deeper into the substrate than the toes will, as seen in this genuine human track.

Where I'm going with this is that some purported Sasquatch tracks seem to have the TOES strongly dug in, suggesting a rigid, fake foot.