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NIST's Pellets

I sort of expected you to lay back and refute, not my point, but my scenario (especially when I had read over it again, right after posting the 5 floors thing), and I’m sorry for failing you, but the point still stands

Fire may spread easily over many floors, but plane debris may not. While the NIST blames the fire for weakening and causing the bowing in of the trusses, it does not account for what dislodged the fireproofing out of it. Had fireproofing not been dislodged, the fires wouldn’t weaken the steel enough so that it would have significant loss of strength, above about 20%, in the given period of time.
I want you to read those two paragraphs back to yourself until you understand how absurd they are, taken together.

Now will you get off your goddamn five floor fixation and read the reports?
 
I want you to read those two paragraphs back to yourself until you understand how absurd they are, taken together.

Now will you get off your goddamn five floor fixation and read the reports?
Yes, haha.
 
-There was enough energy in the plane crash alone to dislodge enough SFRM from trusses as to cause collapse. However, the amount of energy needed to get the plane debris (aka. pellets :D) to reach the trusses in such a way to dislodge it. Many variables are contained within this factor, and some will probably remain unknown unless there's some piece of text within the NIST which successfully analyzes all this. this will remain unset until someone posts something, or I get to work and search for it myself.

It's important to avoid using common sense to reason out how much energy is required for debris to penetrate to the steel elements of the building. The energy released by a high-speed jetliner crash is far, FAR beyond anything the average person is likely to experience first-hand.

The fact that debris and a huge ball of fire blew out the OTHER side of the buildings when the planes crashed should tell you that the plane's momentum was sufficient for a good deal of its mass to go completely through the building. How could it FAIL to hit the steel trusses?
 
The fact that debris and a huge ball of fire blew out the OTHER side of the buildings when the planes crashed should tell you that the plane's momentum was sufficient for a good deal of its mass to go completely through the building. How could it FAIL to hit the steel trusses?
You're failing to consider Newton's Law of Situational Magik.
 
It took you that many posts to realize that you should READ stuff before passing judgement on it?

Good lord. :rolleyes:
What kills me is that he wrote that, and then did exactly the same thing...in the same post!

:hb:
 
I'm aware I could have refrained from going so far. I just wanted to get the main idea out first, in a palpable way. Ended up being a common CT exaggeration, even though I tried to soften it by saying 50% of the beams, a small fraction along th segments, etc.

It's important to avoid using common sense to reason out how much energy is required for debris to penetrate to the steel elements of the building. The energy released by a high-speed jetliner crash is far, FAR beyond anything the average person is likely to experience first-hand.

The fact that debris and a huge ball of fire blew out the OTHER side of the buildings when the planes crashed should tell you that the plane's momentum was sufficient for a good deal of its mass to go completely through the building. How could it FAIL to hit the steel trusses?

It is quite hard to explain it in layman terms, I agree. But if we can't even discuss that, then it's (even more?) meaningless trying to debate this over the NIST. I hold my position, that we should try to understand it as best as basic physics allow us to.

In which tower does such a phenomena occur? If you're talking about the crash at the South Tower, I deeply disagree that "piercing through one side to the other" would have any relevancy since it hit diagonally into the corner, missing almost any core columns at all. - Not that impacting the core columns would have any relevance; but as in, the plane would do far more dislodgement had it Not pierced through the corner - by wasting it's complete energy inside the tower, in further damaging the columns trusses and whatnot.
 
(snip)
-The trusses at both Twin Towers most likely did not suffer fires as strong and constant as in the tests.

(snip)

Feel free to contest all the above. I probably won't answer today if it involves deep thinking, as I had enough thinking, for now.

See Gravy's post, here, where he quotes NIST's Shyam Sunder:
The fire conditions in the towers on 9-11 were far more extreme than those to which floor systems in standard U.S. fire rating tests are subjected
 
In which tower does such a phenomena occur? If you're talking about the crash at the South Tower, I deeply disagree that "piercing through one side to the other" would have any relevancy since it hit diagonally into the corner, missing almost any core columns at all. - Not that impacting the core columns would have any relevance; but as in, the plane would do far more dislodgement had it Not pierced through the corner - by wasting it's complete energy inside the tower, in further damaging the columns trusses and whatnot.

Patently untrue.

In fact there were more core columns hit in the south tower. The entire aircraft hit the building so characterizing it as near miss is simply ignoring that a plane with a wingspan over 100 feet completely hit the building from wingtip to wingtip. In fact the starboard wingtip came no closer than 10 feet to the corner column. The plane was also turning towrds the center of the building when it hit so it was heading towards the core. It was also faster than the plane that hit the north tower. Furthermore it hit one the side with the short span to the core. The building was square but the core was rectangular. this meant that anything that did reach the first core columns lost less speed than a similar piece in the north tower since it travelled a shorter distance to get to the core. Adding to this is that the core was longer along the path of the debris on this side than in the north tower so any dense object entering the core could hit more columns than a similar piece in the north tower.

One engine of the plane that hit the south tower went right through since it missed the core. Instead it tore through perimeter columns on both sides.

In the north tower another piece(a landing gear IIRC) punched out perimeter columns opposite the impact side. However each plane also hit the flooring differently. In the north tower both engines hit the flooring harder than in the south tower IIRC. This meant that going into the core the engines of the plane that hit the south tower lost less velocity to impact with the concrete floors.(which explains how one engine manages to exit at about 100 MPH)
 
I can't really comment on this thread, since I have 0 structural engeneering knowledge, but I do find promising that Yurebiz, an 18 year old, is at least willing to read the NIST report.

Just my impression so far.
 
It is quite hard to explain it in layman terms, I agree. But if we can't even discuss that, then it's (even more?) meaningless trying to debate this over the NIST. I hold my position, that we should try to understand it as best as basic physics allow us to.


Very good! Let's apply basic physics. First of all, how much of the plane's energy was lost when it entered tower (the question applies to both towers)?

To calculate the initial force, we would use Newton's good old mass times acceleration. The acceleration, in the case, is the amount the plane slowed down when it initially hit the tower (I know it's counterintuitive to think of slowing down as being "acceleration", but in physics terms, any change in velocity is acceleration).

Without doing any complex calculations, it is easy to see from videos of the second crash that the acceleration -- at least initially -- was relatively small, because the back of the plane entered the building at close to the same speed as the front. This tells us that the mass of the plane still had a LOT of energy after passing through the perimeter.

Of course, by "the mass of the plane", I don't mean the plane was in one piece. It seems that way by looking at it, but it was shredded as soon as it passed the perimeter. So, each piece of the plane had less momemtum than the whole, but the TOTAL momemtum was not significantly changed in the first couple of milliseconds.

Some of the energy of the crash was lost disassembling the plane, and more was lost when these pieces of the plane wreaked holy havoc on the inside of the building. However, when you consider that the forces involved were many, many times greater than either the airliner or office furniture/cubicles/sheetrock were designed to withstand, then it's not surprising that the individual pieces would have retained a great deal of energy.

(Don't believe me? Try kicking a hole in an office wall. Now imagine if your foot was made of metal and moving at hundreds of mph.)

So, what WAS designed to withstand such forces? The steel frame, of course. Not by making each individual beam indestructable, but by allowing the mass of the building to be redistributed to intact columns as some beams were destroyed. Those steel components that survived the crash would have stopped the flying debris cold, and here is where the force was greatest, because the acceleration (change of velocity) was greatest. It's easy to see, then, that the columns that survived were the ones that absorbed the greatest amount of energy, and therefore would have been the ones most likely to lose the fireproofing insulation in the crash.

So, we have:

1. An airliner that didn't slow down much as it entered the building, and therefore retained a great deal of energy,
2. A building made of some materials that were not designed to withstand high-speed collisions and could not have slowed the pieces down by much, and some materials that were designed to withstand such collisions and would have stopped many of the pieces,
3. These same materials (the steel in the frame), though resistent to collisions, were vulnerable to fire, so had to have fireproofing insulation,
4. The beams which survived the initial crash became the ones most vulnerable to fire, because they absorbed the greatest forces and lost their insulation.

Of course, this would be more precise with at least crude calculations, but logic can carry us pretty far here. The calculations were, in fact, done by those more qualified than I, and if they are satisfied with the conclusions, then so am I.
 
Well I don't want to discuss much yet since I'm still reading, but here's a question just to keep the thread alive:

aggle-rithm (or anyone else for that matter), why didn't the NIST provide simulations for such scenario then? A test simulation made to speculate how much damage would the plane debris do to the foam, considering the props + floor concrete around? They could very well have applied a concrete layer on top of it, and maybe some small wooden props in front of that, but they didn't. They just put the steel beam upwards - which should be put vertical, by the way, if they only care about the trusses - with the foam exposed, and shot 15 times on it.
I mean, come on, I know a plane has more than enough energy to take the whole out of the trusses SFRM. It's just the way it was done... There's so many more factors needed to be applied for a large area dislodgement, that I can't simply accept that, I feel the need to doubt it. It's the trusses we're mainly talking about.

The planes all came horizontally AFAIK, if you can at least accept that. The trusses pose no threat to their movement, perhaps they can decelerate them as soon as the hit the ground, but that's only in the for of attrition, as soon as the loose speed and start slowing down at the floor. And there's concrete on top of it.

Even the trusses on the ceiling of each of the impact floors, i don't think the debris would go so far as to dislodge more than 50 ft away form the crash. Hell, it's vertical. as soon as a debris would've hit it, it would have been deflected downwards. Sure, It could damage it, and maybe dislodge about one feet square out of it, at best. But it wouldn't stick to the beam and keep tearing it apart while moving away from the impact. And it sure wouldn't pierce it like pellets, please. (I just hate that test they did, as much as Kevin, haha)
 
Even the trusses on the ceiling of each of the impact floors, i don't think the debris would go so far as to dislodge more than 50 ft away form the crash. Hell, it's vertical. as soon as a debris would've hit it, it would have been deflected downwards. Sure, It could damage it, and maybe dislodge about one feet square out of it, at best. But it wouldn't stick to the beam and keep tearing it apart while moving away from the impact. And it sure wouldn't pierce it like pellets, please. (I just hate that test they did, as much as Kevin, haha)
The damn debris went all the way thrugh the damn building, you nutcase!
What makes you think it would not "go so far as to dislodge more than 50 ft away form the crash"
Do you even read what you are writing?
oops--I forgot! Cherry-picking is a random event. It doesn't matter what you say, as long as it's something.
 
I know this is tangential to the discussion, but don't you understand the enormous amount of energy that was inherent to the collisions?

The gravitational potential energy associated with the collapse of each tower is at least
1011 J. The energy propagated as seismic waves for ML 2.3 is about 106 to 107 J. Hence, only a
very small portion of the potential energy was converted into seismic waves. Most of the energy
went into deformation of buildings and the formation of rubble and dust. The perception of people
in the vicinity of the collapses as reported in the media seems to be in full accord with the
notion that ground shaking was not a major contributor to the collapse or damage to surrounding
buildings. The seismic energy of a ML 0.7 to 0.9 computed for the impacts is a tiny fraction of
the kinetic energy of each aircraft, about 2 X 109 J. That associated with the combustion of 50
to 100 tons of fuel in each aircraft is roughly 1012 J, most of which was expended in the large
fireballs (visible in TV images) and in subsequent burning that ignited material in each tower.
Less than a millionth of the fuel energy was converted to seismic waves.
Source

Highlighting mine.
 
Well I don't want to discuss much yet since I'm still reading, but here's a question just to keep the thread alive:
Don't bother until you can make sense. Your posts are becoming less and less rational.

Even the trusses on the ceiling of each of the impact floors, i don't think the debris would go so far as to dislodge more than 50 ft away form the crash. Hell, it's vertical. as soon as a debris would've hit it, it would have been deflected downwards. Sure, It could damage it, and maybe dislodge about one feet square out of it, at best. But it wouldn't stick to the beam and keep tearing it apart while moving away from the impact. And it sure wouldn't pierce it like pellets, please. (I just hate that test they did, as much as Kevin, haha)
:eye-poppi

879045b935af19ad6.jpg


Meanwhile, on planet Earth, which is not part of the Bizarro universe, the laws of physics still apply:

879045b9385783ae6.jpg


879045b93857dd081.jpg



600 feet from the north tower
879045aee5fae68e7.jpg

I don't see any insulation on this panel. Where did it go?

1,300 feet from the north tower
879045aef77a575fd.jpg


1,500 feet from the south tower
879045b92e2a5a4e2.jpg

 
I think you also have to allow for the effect of vibration on the fireproofing. When the planes hit the steel structure, it would have set up vibrations all along the interconnected latticework, which would have shaken off a lot of stuff as well, if the adhesion to the steel surface wasn't good, which we know it wasn't, based on the inspections done when they renovated some floors.

That, combined with the impact damage, could have removed most of the fireproofing.
 
Alright folks, I just had this awesome idea. Since Gravy makes fun of my on-the-spot-CT-speculation™, why don't we all share what we think about the SFRM damage, by playing a game of coloring?

(I swear I'll answer the posts tomorrow, but I'd like for everyone to try this also...)
These are the two images taken out of NIST's computer simulations, top is north tower, bottom is south. The top picture in each one is a moderate scenario, and th bottom in each is the worst. I don't care which you use, but what I want is: Shade the area where you think the issulation has been damaged or removed. Use whatever colors you want and explain the legend.
I'll do mine first, sure, hold on.

These are the originals:



Oh yeah, please don't ruin the fun by saying "I'm not an expert so I won't touch this". We are all layman AFAIK, so who cares. I just think it's unfair me being the only one who speculates and gets nailed because I fail hard. If you are all disproving me, I'm sure you could safely speculate a reasonable range where insulation was damaged. You may specify what floor ranges you're talking about if you want, of course.

This is what i think:



About a 30 ft range from the structural failure. Sounds too crazy?
Most of you will just paint the whole thing, I assume :crowded:

No... you are not the only twoofer, to have this happen! The list is long, just not distinguished!
Word.
 
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