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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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Tube concluded everything on the OM copy is a casting artifact (on BFF).

Here would be another interesting challenge; let casting experimenters from both sides try to produce details like these

area_a.jpg


http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/elkins.html

using soil from the Elkins Creek floodplain. There are a couple of researchers in that area who might be willing to supply some.
 
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Chilcutt thought the irregular pits on the EC cast were from sweat pores.

B.gif


I noticed similar pits on top of ridges on a friend's OM copy. The copy has all sorts of interesting features, including miriad air bubbles. He took the photo through a magnifier with a digital camera:
 

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Tube concluded everything on the OM copy is a casting artifact (on BFF).

Here would be another interesting challenge; let casting experimenters from both sides try to produce details like these

[qimg]http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/images/area_a.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/elkins.html

using soil from the Elkins Creek floodplain. There are a couple of researchers in that area who might be willing to supply some.

The details of the upper picture look like what you would get with mud suction..
Hey, we're not the experts but I have to agree with Diogenes.

So, nothing even remotely resembling primate friction ridges to look at?
 
Chilcutt thought the irregular pits on the EC cast were from sweat pores.
Those are some giant sweat pores but again, I'm no expert. I guess the latent fingerprint expert who apparantly never worked with casts before meeting with Meldrum wouldn't consider his guesses on cast features such as the above to be mistaken as something else?
I noticed similar pits on top of ridges on a friend's OM copy. The copy has all sorts of interesting features, including miriad air bubbles. He took the photo through a magnifier with a digital camera:
Air bubbles, etc. on your friends copy? How objective is that? I know it wasn't the first time to carefully read the link I gave, right?
Oh, and if any proponents are not feeling up to the wealth of info to ponder- HIGHLIGHTS! :

The Holy Grail; The Original Cast.

Very interesting.
ETA: proper link.
 
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This is my scan of the peel (it's identified as BCM in the book and the cast was sent to Jeff labled that way, but John Green thought the cast was more likely from OM). It's much more detailed in the book:
attachment.php


Yes if one gets a more detailed look at this photo it quickly becomes clear that any suggestion of dermal ridges is being made by a very credulous person who's desire to believe in bigfoot overrides the easily found observation prooving otherwise.

Here you can have a nice look at this same cast shown on p. 258 of Meldrum's LMS book with a clear explanation of how the obviously non-dermal ridges are simply concentric rings of plaster forming around the central pour-point. Another spurious evidence claim but don't take my word for it.

ETA: image.
 
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Tube concluded everything on the OM copy is a casting artifact (on BFF).

Here would be another interesting challenge; let casting experimenters from both sides try to produce details like these

[qimg]http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/images/area_a.jpg[/qimg]
Why would it be a challenge if it is a simple cast of a natural footprint ?

Are you saying the more skilled the caster is, the more likely the print was made by a Bigfoot ?

We seem to be getting sidetracked here, and confusing the significance of how much detail that shows up in a print with what made the print in the first place ...

The challenge ( for some ) is to simply interpret what you are looking at, not see if you can duplicate it ..

The duplication should be taken care of by the bigfoot walking around...

If real Bigfoots are making these prints, then we should see a similarity in most of the prints, but we don't.. ( unless you just count " shaped like a foot and five toes " ) ...


The bottom line is, we can find a print with " War & Peace " embedded in the dermals, but until you show us the foot that made it, it is pretty much meaningless... Cool, but meaningless ...
 
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Hey, we're not the experts but I have to agree with Diogenes.

So, nothing even remotely resembling primate friction ridges to look at?

See the rest of the pictures in the articles. Any detail would do, but it would have to be made in original soil and be replicable by other experimenters.

If something other than primate friction skin made the detail, then let it be shown how. If it's from suction, let that be demonstrated.
 
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[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5049&d=1168530723[/qimg]

Yes if one gets a more detailed look at this photo it quickly becomes clear that any suggestion of dermal ridges is being made by a very credulous person who's desire to believe in bigfoot overrides the easily found observation prooving otherwise.
ETA: image.

Credulous? That hard nosed cop?

I've already mentioned those were the concentric rings that led to experimentation in Jeff's lab to see if they could have been caused by the pour. There's no reason the cast can't have artifacts as well as primate skin detail, including human from the caster touching the print or the fresh cast. I haven't seen irregular pits with rounded edges on tube's test cast photos yet.

Melissa noted this:

"If your in the field - and your using water hotter than air temperature, you had better move fast, or adjust your casting agent amount, because if you dont, you too will see these issues. But - these artifacts did not stop the casting agent from picking up the dermals of my foot in this track. So, in my opinion it is possible to seperate artifacts from what your actually trying to cast (dermals and flexion creases)."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16440&pid=356480&st=300&

OM certainly wasn't the first cast with suspected dermals. Those were first noticed in 1982 and checked by Ed Palma and other fingerprint experts. But you know that; you've read Krantz.

OM is one of nearly 200 casts in Jeff's collection. Most don't have dermatoglyphics at all. Even if there were no suspected dermals on any casts, there are still the rest of the characteristics of a non-human living foot a hoaxer would have had to work out from scratch.
 
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Hundreds or even thousands of gigantic ape-men roaming the woods, crossing roads, harassing people and millions or tens of millions of people running around with digital cameras, video cameras, camera-phones...hmm lessee....carry the one, o.k. here's the math:

((2, 000 AM /100 mi sq) * ((1/76,520 CC) + (~4762.5*n))
where AM = population of Apemen
mi sq = miles squared
CC = camera carriers
n = constant to account for variable weather/ chance encounter situations

So
2000AM/100 mi SQ = BU (or bodies per Unit of land)
1/76520CC = LL (or Land-based Latent-observers)
and ~4762.5*n = CRAP (or Constant Readjustment of Ambient Physical environment)

So the odds of this all being real, but never being adequately demonstrated by a clear movie, video, or still photographic or digital image is:
BULLCRAP
It's scientific.
 
Hundreds or even thousands of gigantic ape-men roaming the woods, crossing roads,

Mostly at night. Fahrenbach's math:

"Nocturnality

The nocturnality of the sasquatch has been questioned on occasion. This trait can be considered from a statistical standpoint. Take a hypothetical area randomly seeded with sasquatches, evenly distributed during day and night. Their apparent temporal distribution will depend on them being seen by human observers. Assume a very conservative ratio of such alert observers during daylight as compared to the hours of total darkness in the mountains to be 20:1. A daylight observer will have a circular observational area with a radius of, say, 500’, over which recognition of the subject will be unambiguous, roughly 800,000 square feet. A nighttime observer has at best the expanding cone of headlights in one direction with recognition of a grey object at 300’ and an expanding width of illumination to 100’, a sector with an area of about 15,000 square feet. Factoring in the number of observers produces a ratio of 800,000 X 20 : 15,000 X 1, or better than 1,000 : 1. This 99.9% : 0.1% ratio describes how sightings should be distributed between day and night, a number that will get more extreme if flashlights or moonlight is the alternative illumination.

An actual ratio cited by Green consists of 735 daytime sightings (58%) and 540 during the night (42%), or a ratio of 1.38 to 1. If only sightings on roads are considered, the ratio shifts to 58% in favor of night sightings. This discrepancy can be interpreted as activity by the sasquatch that exposes it to being seen about 1,500 times more often at night than an even distribution would predict."

http://www.bfro.net/REF/THEORIES/WHF/sasq_traits.htm

The average encounter is said to be about 20 seconds. It would take me that long to get my cameras off "sleep" and pointed in the right direction. Even if I succeeded, my chances of getting a blobsquatch are extremely good.

I assume I would be together enough to even remember I had my cameras slung around my neck.
 
I'm certain they learned from it.
I am not so certain.

Some are. That's why efforts are made to investigate them.
A lot of this effort, IMHO has the serious drawback of being based on the postulate that the creatures are real.

Nor am I. I doubt you would know anything about it. If you make a mistake in your line of work, are you discredited forever? Do people laugh at you on message boards? Will they still be laughing 30+ years after your death?
Let me just say that if I ever make a similar mistake chances are I will never get a decent job for the rest of my life.

You greatly overestimate the hoaxers.
I think you underestimates them.
The giant penguin is an example of what happens when one understimates them.

PEAR? Swindler and Meldrum submitted a paper to AAAS.
Aren't you aware of the links between the Journal of Scientifi Exploration and PEAR?
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/18.1_meldrum.pdf

Where's their paper? Got a link to it?

I hope they do. It looked like Rick Noll tore his analysis to shreds on BFF. Did that have anything to do with DY not wanting to examine the original?
That was not my impression.
Aniway, regarding the second sentence, are you poisoning the well?

As if any of that has anything to do with the Skookum Cast.
Ah, yes, it has! It has to do with every little piece of evidence that may be a hoax or a misindentification. "Remember the giant penguin" should be a motto for all those who back back their claims on footprints and sighting reports...

Saying something's a fraud, misidentification or hoax doesn't make it so. Prove it.
Neither saying "its is not a fraud or misdentification" will make it not a fraud or not a misidentification...

Can you prove they are not?

I don't think so, otherwise we would not be having this long discussion.
 
I hope they do. It looked like Rick Noll tore his analysis to shreds on BFF. Did that have anything to do with DY not wanting to examine the original?

That was not my impression.
Aniway, regarding the second sentence, are you poisoning the well?

Nor was it the impression of the majority of the BFF, as their own poll showed. ;) In fact, the majority very quickly recognized the imprint as being a resting elk, but only the die-hard Noll fan-club carried on and on and on...hey....like here!
Noll himself gave up very quickly (even going so far as to claim that he never suggested it was actually a BF imprint!) and began with the personal insults and charges of sloppy science almost immediately without bothering to even ask to see my measurements, photos, and well, you know...data. As expected.

And despite LAL's increasingly pathetic attempts to cast doubt on my credibility, I've already explained ad nauseum that I didn't want to see the original under Noll's stipulation that I'd have to sign contracts to allow myself to be video-taped so he could sell the footage in a documentary. There's no way I want to help that man put money in his pockets by granting permission for use of my image or time. Besides, the replica is of a very high quality (better than many museum casts of fossil specimens that I've examined) and all the relevant features are readily visible (you know, the 8 inch long wrists, and 18" wide haunches, and even the fine skin textures on the bottoms of the coyote's paw pads).

Laughable.:D
 
Thanks to all who chose to take the footprint challenge.
The results are…all are real and from the same individual and same trackway.

Where: Tidal flats outside of Anchorage, AK
When: Late June, 2006
How: I saw a fellow walking with his dog on the flats while I was wandering around watching the birds. I noticed that he was walking normally, then slipped a bit, before proceeding in a more careful walk, with a very deliberate, foot-lifting, small-stride walk. Immediately, I walked out to investigate the tracks he left. I didn’t know this guy, nor did I tell him to do anything weird as he walked, and I didn’t modify the prints in any way. They’re approximately 5-10 minutes old in these photos.

The first shows the most slippage, where the person was walking at a normal pace. The tremendous deformation of the substrate evident around the heels and toes represents the areas with the most force being applied during the stepping action. The toes automatically clench during slippage, and also in very deep or slippery mud. This is to allow the foot to be lifted clear of the substrate with minimal surface area being dragged up and out.

The second print shows only a moderate amount of deformation, mostly around the toes, since again, as the toe-off commenced, there was great force exerted upon the toes (especially the first toe). Smearing is apparent. But the overall shape of the foot is clearly outlined.

The third shows where the person was walking very carefully and lifting rather than toeing-off in order to avoid slippage. A nearly perfect foot outline is preserved, and what some took to be a monolithic margin is actually where the toes clenched and dug in. Different from a true, monolithic margin, there is no spray or ejecta apron of material anterior to the cranial margin (front) of the print. This shows that a flexible, animated foot was involved rather than a rigid, plow-like prosthetic.

Some interesting and informative things came from this:
1) One outspoken person immediately formed an opinion as to how the prints were formed, and even went so far as to recommend to me how to redesign the experiment…without even knowing the basics of this one.
2) Another tried to find abnormalities and suggested that I had manipulated the prints, and that there was a distinct “hour-glass” shape to the second one, possibly suggesting that I had tried to forge a Bigfoot print.
3) Two people out of 8 were unsure of the prints’ authenticity and said only that they could be either/or.
4) Five out of 8 thought that 2 of the prints were forgeries but one was real.
5) Two thought all 3 were forgeries (one later modified that opinion to match another’s).
6) Three declined to take the challenges, and two offered excellent reasons for it, but one simply ignored requests to participate.

So, what did this “prove”? Well, it shows that deciding whether a single print is real or forged based only on a photograph is probably not possible. Anyone can form a convincing-looking print and cast or film it. What’s better is to have several prints. But as in this case, all 3 look different despite being from the same guy! So, similarity isn’t a good criterion. The most helpful insight might be that the interaction of the foot with a particular substrate can offer clues as to its authenticity, but not confirm or deny it. A series of tracks in mud with no slippage would be very suspicious indeed. And toes that don’t clench in a viscous substrate are also cause for skepticism. Finally, it should be evident that guys like Grover Krantz who boldly proclaim that they can tell whether a print or cast is real or not simply by examining a photo or plaster cast are full of it. Thank you and happy Friday!




 
....So, what did this “prove”? Well, it shows that deciding whether a single print is real or forged based only on a photograph is probably not possible. Anyone can form a convincing-looking print and cast or film it. What’s better is to have several prints....

Agreed.

And "analyzing" a print or trackway by photo or cast can never equal analyzing them in the field.

And since field analysis is a matter of testimony (perhaps bolstered by photos and casts), denialism will always be able to denigrate it.

Therefore, footprints will always be evidence (especially when photographed or casted), but they will always be labeled "inconclusive", "unreliable", etc.

(BTW, welcome to our "beautiful beaches")
 
Bingo!
that's why "repeat performances" are necessary.
You tell me you saw a bear last week and the week before in the same area, show me some track photos, and a cast, and I say: "Huh. Could be fake."
You take me out there, we both see the bear and I say: "Wow. Guess not."
Everyone else can now either accept it or reject it, in which case, they're welcome to go find the bear themselves.
So now...where's the ape-man?

ETA: The shores of Alaska are awesome! Lots of cool stuff to see.
 
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2) Another tried to find abnormalities and suggested that I had manipulated the prints, and that there was a distinct “hour-glass” shape to the second one, possibly suggesting that I had tried to forge a Bigfoot print.

That was a joke, son. The hourglass shape has been the subject of much discussion.

You've shown that real prints can look faked. I didn't see that in your conclusions.
 
So just to recap where were at there's no reliable dermatoglyphic tracks, Noll claimed he never suggested the Skookum Cast was created by an actual BF imprint(!?), and only eight people took the frickin' challenge.
 
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