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Anger upon athiesm conversion.

In Dr. Dawkins Q & A session after his reading at Lynchburg (which can be found on youtube.com or here, at his website, Dawkins gets asked about anger people experience upon an athiesm conversion, among other things. I think this is a good point to discuss.
I know I was angry after my conversion, but not as much initially. My anger was unfocussed then, more anger at the world for what I percieved as widespread stupidity.
Now, I am extremely angry, due to the widespread hypocrisy I percieve in doctrine and standards. I suppose that it is more aimed at Xianity, but that is only because I was raised Xian and (living in the US) it is the most widespread.
This could be entirely due to personal experiences, and I would like to see what other people have experienced after a conversion.
http://richarddawkins.net/
Anger is a motivational tool that requires delicate handling, as it can easily taint whatever purpose you are using it for. It can fill one with energy, or an adrenal rush.

It is also corrosive. I'd use it with caution in any endeavor.

In trite Starwarese: "Anger leads to hate, hate to the dark side." There's more than a grain of truth in that.

"I am angry at hypocrisy."

Welcome to life, be prepared to stay pissed off until you stop breathing, or you learn to get past anger and get on with the actual problem you are trying to solve. Anger, beyond short flashes of it, is a self indulgent exercise in emotion.

I had to learn this the hard way, having been too prone to anger (still am, though to a lesser degree) for much of my life.

DR
 
I don't understand this anger. Surely they had your best interests, in their eyes, at heart.

NO! No, they did not! Surely if they really had faith that their religion was so obviously correct, they could have faith that they didn't need to indoctrinate their own children to get good results and have her respect and assimilate their religion?

Doesn't a loving god find one's personal faith enough rather than demand that the faith be brow-beaten or physically beaten into one's children?

When parents go to a church and suffer an infant to be dunked in cold water in what is commonly called a baptism, isn't that really just more of a public display of their own piety to help their standing among their neighbors and religious community rather than something they think was actually good for the scared infant?

Nicholas Humphrey said:
A Christian Fundamentalist mother, for example, forbids her child from attending classes on evolution: though she may claim she is doing it for the child and not of course herself, she is very likely motivated primarily by a desire to make a display of her own purity. Doesn't she just know that God is mighty proud of her for conforming to His will? . . The chief mullah of Saudi Arabia proclaims that the Earth is flat and that anyone who teaches otherwise is a friend of Satan(17): won't he himself be thrice blessed by Allah for making this courageous stand? A group of rabbis in Jerusalem try to ban the showing of the film Jurassic Park on the grounds that it may give children the idea that there were dinosaurs living on earth sixty million years ago, when the scriptures state that in fact the world is just six thousand years old(18): are they not making a wonderful public demonstration of their own piety?

What we are seeing, as often as not, is pure self interest. In which case, we should not even allow a mitigating plea of good intentions on the part of the parent or other responsible adult. They are looking after none other than themselves.

Yet, as I said, in the end it hardly matters what the parents' intentions are. Because even the best of intentions would not be sufficient to buy them "parental rights" over their children. Indeed the very idea that parents or any other adults have "rights" over children is morally insupportable.

No human being, in any other circumstances, is credited with having rights over any one else. No one is entitled, as of right, to control, use or direct the life-course of another person -- even for objectively good ends. It's true that in the past slave-owners had such legal rights over their slaves. And it's true too that, until comparatively recently, the anomaly persisted of husbands having certain such rights over their wives -- the right to have sex with them, for instance. But neither of these exceptions provides a good model for regulating parent-child relationships.

Children, to repeat, have to be considered as having interests independent of their parents. They cannot be subsumed as if they were part of the same person. At least so it should be. Unless, that is, we make the extraordinary mistake that the US Supreme Court apparently did when it ruled, in relation to the Amish, that while the Amish way of life may be considered "odd or even erratic" it "interferes with no rights or interests of others"(19) (my italics). As if the children of the Amish are not even to be counted as potentially "others".

I think we should stop talking of "parental rights" at all. In so far as they compromise the child's rights as an individual, parents' rights have no status in ethics and should have none in law
 
When I converted from religion I felt no hate for those around me who were part of my previous religion. I just felt sorry for them because they were still brainwashed.

This led me to try converting some of my close friends to being atheists. I was unsuccessful at this and regret doing it.

I still feel they should be exposed to other points of view than religion, but I do it more tactfully. Well, at least most of the time.
 
When I converted from religion I felt no hate for those around me who were part of my previous religion. I just felt sorry for them because they were still brainwashed.
This is the attitude that most religious envision upon atheists. A superior, potential smug, view that all believers are idiots.

Funny enough, that same attitude is what seems to drive religious fundies. A belief that they have the answer and should shove it down the throats of others.

The only difference between your initial attitude and what theirs, is that I'm sure you have actual arguments and logical reasoning for coming to your conclusions. (A very important distinction, BTW)

It's why I appreciate the attitudes of Tricky, Foster Zygote, Ranson and several others. Provide the information, but let the person make thier own choices, conclusions.
 
NO! No, they did not! Surely if they really had faith that their religion was so obviously correct, they could have faith that they didn't need to indoctrinate their own children to get good results and have her respect and assimilate their religion?

Doesn't a loving god find one's personal faith enough rather than demand that the faith be brow-beaten or physically beaten into one's children?

When parents go to a church and suffer an infant to be dunked in cold water in what is commonly called a baptism, isn't that really just more of a public display of their own piety to help their standing among their neighbors and religious community rather than something they think was actually good for the scared infant?
Your logic is valid. However there is one fatal flaw to your argument. You are applying rational thought to an irrational belief system. You are of course right, from your POV. I'm not asking you to "see their POV" I'm simply telling you that strict adherence to logic from people who put faith above all else when it comes to matters of religion is more often than not unrealistic.

Anger is an emotional response. That's good. We have emotions for a reason. However, it is often counter productive to hold on to that emotion. Sometimes the anger can lead to irrational thoughts and behavior.

The utility of anger often decreases after a time. You might as well be angry at the rising of the tide. Sure, humans are capable of rational thought and therefore are capable of changing their behavior and the tide is not. However anger has a limited ability to cause change and it can steal from you valuable time and energy. IMO anger is not worth that. Though I have to confess that anger gives purpose to some people's life. Anger can also motivate an individual to seek social change. It would be impossible for me to say what is best for you. You are entitled to your emotions. They were, initially, correct in my estimation. What's next? It's up to you.

Best of luck and I hope that if it is possible you can have a healthy relationship with your family and any former friends. I can't imagine my life without the love of my parents. I was scared to death to come out to them. We've moved beyond that and there are no recriminations on either part. I'm glad.
 
I don't understand this anger. Surely they had your best interests, in their eyes, at heart.
As for the anger people have referred to in this thread, as espoused by Mr. Dawkins, surely there is enough unethical wrong-doing besides the religous one to just see this as one more blight.
Anger is a rash emotion which blinds us to rational thought.
Less is better IMO

There is nothing inappropriate about being angry at people who have wronged you, even if they thought it was for the best. I think it's perfectly legitimate to be angry with faithful people who brainwashed you as a child, because adults should know better than to believe in nonsense. What you do with that anger can be good or bad, getting revenge isn't terribly productive, but teaching your own children truths rather than lies is. Emotions do not need a rational motivation. The actions you take in response to them do. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with feeling hurt, betrayed, and and taken advantage of after waking up from the nightmare of religion.
 
This is the attitude that most religious envision upon atheists. A superior, potential smug, view that all believers are idiots.

Funny enough, that same attitude is what seems to drive religious fundies. A belief that they have the answer and should shove it down the throats of others.

The only difference between your initial attitude and what theirs, is that I'm sure you have actual arguments and logical reasoning for coming to your conclusions. (A very important distinction, BTW)

It's why I appreciate the attitudes of Tricky, Foster Zygote, Ranson and several others. Provide the information, but let the person make thier own choices, conclusions.

Interestingly, it was a person who only provided info and let me make my own choices that pushed me all the way to atheism. I had been falling away from god for several years prior to this. I just wish that at 21, I would have been wise enough to realize that is the best way to convince others.

I truly envy people who by their own abilities have rejected religion. But that may be because of my strong religious upbringing.
 
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I think it's perfectly legitimate to be angry with faithful people who brainwashed you as a child, because adults should know better than to believe in nonsense.
Ya know, ID, it's funny. Adults go to Monte Carlo, and Las Vegas every year, and make someone else rich. So what?

I was never brainwashed, yet I found Faith. I am an adult. I also go to casinos every few years, and gamble. I usually play craps, due to its having excellent chances for returns . . . the way I play.

The last three trips to the tables have been in the black, for me. Yet you and I know, we both know, that the games are set up with the average odds being of an advantage to the House.

Since I am adult, should I stop gambling?

DR
 
Since I am adult, should I stop gambling?
I'm libertarian. I think you should do whatever you want with your money. I like to gamble but I can't afford it. I consider myself quite adept at poker and can make a good deal of money but I'm too passionate and too often I play lousy. I simply lack the discipline to play as I know I should all the time.

I owe people money for things that have nothing to do with gambling and I have made a commitment that until they are paid off I won't gamble. I also won't gamble if my finances can't justify it.

But if it makes you happy what difference does it make? Entertainment costs money.
 
I used to be a libertarian, but thats not the point.
The Las Vegas bit had me laughing out loud, considering TAM 5.
 
Ya know, ID, it's funny. Adults go to Monte Carlo, and Las Vegas every year, and make someone else rich. So what?

I was never brainwashed, yet I found Faith. I am an adult. I also go to casinos every few years, and gamble. I usually play craps, due to its having excellent chances for returns . . . the way I play.

The last three trips to the tables have been in the black, for me. Yet you and I know, we both know, that the games are set up with the average odds being of an advantage to the House.

Since I am adult, should I stop gambling?

DR

You are, or should be, well-informed enough to know that gambling is a risk-taking venture. For another thing, the chances of making money gambling are significantly higher than the chances that Jesus will cure a boil.
 
There is nothing inappropriate about being angry at people who have wronged you, even if they thought it was for the best. I think it's perfectly legitimate to be angry with faithful people who brainwashed you as a child, because adults should know better than to believe in nonsense. What you do with that anger can be good or bad, getting revenge isn't terribly productive, but teaching your own children truths rather than lies is. Emotions do not need a rational motivation. The actions you take in response to them do. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with feeling hurt, betrayed, and and taken advantage of after waking up from the nightmare of religion.

Getting angry is often a counterproductive or harmful response. For one thing it takes time and generally accomplishes nothing. Emotions are not rational and lead to actions that are not rational. This results in wife beating and child beatings and other pointless violence and harmful responses to stimuli. So feeling anger is ok only if you can control your actions when you are angry. Generally unless it stimulated you to take useful action on some issue it is pointless. Typically it is just an emotion you need to release to keep it from building up.
 
Getting angry is often a counterproductive or harmful response. For one thing it takes time and generally accomplishes nothing. Emotions are not rational and lead to actions that are not rational. This results in wife beating and child beatings and other pointless violence and harmful responses to stimuli. So feeling anger is ok only if you can control your actions when you are angry. Generally unless it stimulated you to take useful action on some issue it is pointless. Typically it is just an emotion you need to release to keep it from building up.

It's not that I disagree with you, I just don't think a person should have to apologize for their feelings, only their actions. I think there's nothing wrong with anger at having been victimized.
 
You are, or should be, well-informed enough to know that gambling is a risk-taking venture. For another thing, the chances of making money gambling are significantly higher than the chances that Jesus will cure a boil.
Ya know, I never ask Jesus to help with a roll of the dice. I figure too many people do that already, which could be part of the boil problem now manifesting itself on the bums of Las Vegas society . . . ;)

DR
 
It's not that I disagree with you, I just don't think a person should have to apologize for their feelings, only their actions. I think there's nothing wrong with anger at having been victimized.

I agree there is nothing wrong with it unless you can't control your anger then there is something wrong with it.
 
Getting angry is often a counterproductive or harmful response. For one thing it takes time and generally accomplishes nothing. Emotions are not rational and lead to actions that are not rational. This results in wife beating and child beatings and other pointless violence and harmful responses to stimuli. So feeling anger is ok only if you can control your actions when you are angry. Generally unless it stimulated you to take useful action on some issue it is pointless. Typically it is just an emotion you need to release to keep it from building up.
I largely agree (see post above). However I think it was anger that motivated many throughout history to do positive things. It's a dangerous emotion though and I would encourage most to deal with it and get over their anger. For most of us it will likely only cause us to think irrationaly and waste our time and resources and for some even cause us our life.
 
As a lifelong atheist, I somehow find it understandable that people would get angry after their de-conversion. I think that for a religious person, their religion is the bedrock of their existence. To realize that bedrock was false from the get go is surely a scary experience. Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate...hate leads to the dark side...:jedi:Okay, maybe not the dark side thing nor the hate, but I think it would be scary to be de-converted and feel like I was left hanging for awhile.
The important thing is that the anger passes.:thumbsup:
 
I think people misplace their anger. You have just been fooled by others but also by yourself. If you do nothing you will be fooled again. If you get angry at religion you will be fooled again only you will be angry. You need to take the responsibility for being fooled and accept that it is your fault. You let them fool you. Change yourself. Or you can always blame them and don't change since it had nothing to do with you........or did it?
 
I didn't get angry or feel any much emotion about it. Athiesm was just a natural point for me to reach. I was agnostic since I was maybe twelve. aAhiesm was simply the next logical point once I became more mature and fully understood both sides.

My only emotion really has always been if god exisited he must have be a real %&#* that what I've thought since I was pretty young.
 

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