Possible application candidate

[Jim_Mich]

I understand that the MDC isn't interested in why. My concern is if someone showed 'how' it worked in a perfectly logical way, could that invalidate winning the challenge?
(It's not me or my uncle claiming these powers. I'm just taking an advocate type stance here.)

 

[Cuddles]

I understand that the MDC isn't interested in why. My concern is if someone showed 'how' it worked in a perfectly logical way, could that invalidate winning the challenge?
(It's not me or my uncle claiming these powers. I'm just taking an advocate type stance here.)

It depends when the explanation came. At some point the JREF enters a contract with the applicant and is legally bound to hand over the money if they pass. This would be after a protocol has been agreed and I believe that Randi has to sign something. Simply having an application accepted would not be enough, since that just starts the negotiations. This is where one of the many anti-Randi arguments falls down, since those who claim that he would simply refuse to release the money seem to ignore the fact that he could, and would be, succesfully sued if he did so.

I don't know if there are any clauses to cover a non-paranormal explanation being found before or during the test, so you would need to ask Randi or someone else challenge related. If the explanation was found after the test I am almost certain the money would be paid out. On the other hand there will almost certainly be protection against fraud, so I would expect someone who had themselves implanted with an IR detector would not win any money if caught out. Again, you would need to ask Randi or Jeff for the definitive answer.

 

[robinson]

If I was betting a million dollars on something, I would certainly have some mechanism for weeding out any possible chance of an unknown ability making it through.

 

[Burner]

It depends when the explanation came. At some point the JREF enters a contract with the applicant and is legally bound to hand over the money if they pass. This would be after a protocol has been agreed and I believe that Randi has to sign something.

Very good. Does this mean that even when a perfectly logical explanation would be found and demonstrated 1 mill prize would still have to be awarded?

 

[Burner]

I brushed up on my probability account and I came up with these numbers for the test I'm going to do (described above):

If we take 1,2 or 3 three-second zaps respectively, with 5 seconds recognition interval in a 20 minute time-frame, we can expect the following odds to guess it correctly by luck alone:

One successful try: 5s/1200s = 1/240 99.58333% probability of failure
Two successful tries: 1/240^2=1/57600 99.99826% probability of failure
Three successful tries: 1/240^3=1/13824000 99.99999% probability of failure

Hence only 3 tries would be more than enough to pass a formal test.
I will conduct a two-try test in a few weeks time and I'll inform the forum about results. Hopefully by that time the JREF will make up their mind about
the nature of this claim.

 

[AgingYoung]

I tried my TV remode. It works through four layers of blue denim material! It also works through most of my fingers but not through the base of my thumb or through the palm of my hand. It seems that IR signals have enough penetrating power to pass through a moderate depth of human tissue and/or clothing.

I can point a remote 180 degrees away from the TV and 'bounce' the IR off of me and it works.

Cartman. You really need to watch more Southpark.

lol. Either that or paying more attention.

.....

I think the JREF are slipping up a bit, here. But what the h*ll, your uncle probably deserves the million more than most other applicants, so.....

Hans

I really think they're 'slipping' also. This slight could be performed with a simple filling in a molar (among other ways).

Gene

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I brushed up on my probability account and I came up with these numbers for the test I'm going to do (described above):

If we take 1,2 or 3 three-second zaps respectively, with 5 seconds recognition interval in a 20 minute time-frame, we can expect the following odds to guess it correctly by luck alone:

One successful try: 5s/1200s = 1/240 99.58333% probability of failure
Two successful tries: 1/240^2=1/57600 99.99826% probability of failure
Three successful tries: 1/240^3=1/13824000 99.99999% probability of failure

Hence only 3 tries would be more than enough to pass a formal test.
I will conduct a two-try test in a few weeks time and I'll inform the forum about results. Hopefully by that time the JREF will make up their mind about
the nature of this claim.

As Jeff Wagg stated and other posters in this thread have indicated from their experience, the JREF will "make up their mind about the nature of this claim" after they received a proper application, the form of which can be found here: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

Only in the mutually agreed upon test protocol - after an application has been received and accepted - it will be determined what is good enough to pass a formal test.



Burner, you were understandably very reluctant to put your uncle through any unnecessary pain; i.e. in the event of a non-paranormalness of the claimed ability.

Since it is still unclear if the JREF considers this claim paranormal, but you are planning definitive tests with your uncle, albeit in a few weeks, does this mean your stance on "inflicting unnecessary pain" has changed?

In short: Why doesn't your uncle apply first and learn if his claim is considered paranormal by the JREF?

 

[robinson]

Why subject yourself to public ridicule if JREF can't answer a simple question?

 

[Cuddles]

Why subject yourself to public ridicule if JREF can't answer a simple question?

Until he applies he hasn't asked the JREF a question and therefore can't have an official answer. In addition, it is not clear from this discussion exactly how, or even if, the supposed ability works. If the remote is seen to be used while pointed straight at his leg from close range it is a very different question from having it pointed through several opaque objects from a distance while hidden. The latter would certainly be paranormal, the former may not be. Without an application stating exactly what would be tested, the JREF cannot decide if it is worthy of testing.

 

[robinson]

If you claim something is paranormal, and offer a million dollars to anyone who can prove a paranormal event, the burden is on you to define what is paranormal. Its a challenge, so the person who says "that isn't true, prove it", has the task of defining what is not true.

How else could it be? The person offering the money is the one who gets to define the event as not real. Correct? The person who wants to win the money has no say so in what is considered paranormal. The JREF, by its own rules, defines what is paranormal, and what can be tested.

If that is not the case, what is the case?

 

[robinson]

Also, from the FAQ page
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#4.2

You should do all of that BEFORE you send in an application. See? You don't just send an application first, to find out if you have an ability.

 

[robinson]

As Jeff Wagg stated and other posters in this thread have indicated from their experience, the JREF will "make up their mind about the nature of this claim" after they received a proper application, the form of which can be found here: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

In short: Why doesn't your uncle apply first and learn if his claim is considered paranormal by the JREF?

The FAQ says clearly:

Past JREF Challenge rulings have shown that certain events which deviate from what is usual or normal aren't always considered paranormal by the Challenge administrators. Potential applicants are free to inquire (prior to submitting an application) as to whether or not their claim would be acceptable under the Challenge rules.

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.2

 

[Jeff Wagg]

This is the main reason we don't talk about claims before we receive the application.

I don't even know what we're talking about. A guy feels pain when someone uses a remote control. Ok.. for all I know it's one of those Dish Network UHF/IR remotes. Maybe it's the UHF that makes his foot hurt. Maybe it's the IR. Maybe he just watches the nephew to see when he's holding the remote.

I don't know, that's why I can't "guarantee 100%" that what's going on here is supernatural.

I have talked with Randi about this, and he agrees that if someone can detect an IR signal from a remote with proper blinds in place, that would count as paranormal. In this case, proper blinds would include eyes and ears.

And that's why the claim itself is so important. Does it matter which remote is used? Does it matter if the batteries are in it? How far away can the remote be? Etc...etc. etc. This is all the work of the claimant.

But, that said, this really looks like a hoax to me. And that's why we have the challenge in the first place.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

So there's your answer. It looks paranormal, but as always there may be some things which are yet to be revealed which will put it into the realm of normal. Those may come to light in the application.

Imagine the alternative. What if Jeff had just said "yes, I guarantee it's paranormal". An applicant could later say "oh, the receiver also has a hearing aid. But you said it was paranormal!"

We all know how much the woo crowd love to find fault with the JREF's statements, even where none exists. Let's not try to force them into making rash promises.

Please apply.

 

[jimtron]

I have talked with Randi about this, and he agrees that if someone can detect an IR signal from a remote with proper blinds in place, that would count as paranormal.

Burner, if you do your own informal tests, let us know how the go. And please do apply.

 

[Burner]

This is the main reason we don't talk about claims before we receive the application.

I don't even know what we're talking about. A guy feels pain when someone uses a remote control. Ok.. for all I know it's one of those Dish Network UHF/IR remotes. Maybe it's the UHF that makes his foot hurt. Maybe it's the IR. Maybe he just watches the nephew to see when he's holding the remote..

I have already told you TWICE it was a standard IR TV remote. And he's not technically detecting it with his foot but with A SHRAPNEL in his foot. But I guess telling you these things repeatedly doesn't have the desired effect so I'll just stop.

As for the application I'm quite a rational scientific type(like it says in 4.2 and I won't do anything before I've found his ability is 100% verifiable. Only then will I suggest my uncle to apply.

Imagine the alternative. What if Jeff had just said "yes, I guarantee it's paranormal". An applicant could later say "oh, the receiver also has a hearing aid. But you said it was paranormal!"

That would be world's first foot hearing aid.

We all know how much the woo crowd love to find fault with the JREF's statements, even where none exists. Let's not try to force them into making rash promises.

As someone wrote few posts before JREF only has an obligation after the protocol has been verified, and signed by Randi. So try to understand I'm not asking for a formal promise, a pint of blood and your firstborn... Just a simple yes or no. Think of it as motivation for me when I have to zap my uncle.

P.S. Nice to be among the woo crowd

 

[jimtron]

So try to understand I'm not asking for a formal promise, a pint of blood and your firstborn... Just a simple yes or no.

Jeff has said twice that detecting IR from a remote would be paranormal. See my recent posts where I quoted him. So that's resolved, no?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I have already told you TWICE it was a standard IR TV remote. And he's not technically detecting it with his foot but with A SHRAPNEL in his foot. But I guess telling you these things repeatedly doesn't have the desired effect so I'll just stop.

As for the application I'm quite a rational scientific type(like it says in 4.2 and I won't do anything before I've found his ability is 100% verifiable. Only then will I suggest my uncle to apply.



That would be world's first foot hearing aid.

As someone wrote few posts before JREF only has an obligation after the protocol has been verified, and signed by Randi. So try to understand I'm not asking for a formal promise, a pint of blood and your firstborn... Just a simple yes or no. Think of it as motivation for me when I have to zap my uncle.

P.S. Nice to be among the woo crowd

Burner, may I suggest you formulate the application as you would write it in the official form, post it here, and then ask JREF to comment?

So far, we have to piece together a whole lot of statements from you. If we (including JREF) see what the actual claim is - with the wording being very important here - it should be easy to determine if the claim qualifies for the Challenge.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

I have already told you TWICE it was a standard IR TV remote. And he's not technically detecting it with his foot but with A SHRAPNEL in his foot. But I guess telling you these things repeatedly doesn't have the desired effect so I'll just stop.

You are among skeptics here. You have to expect that the people on this board will not simply believe the first explanation they are given. We are trying to think of alternative explanations. Your uncle may have told you that it's due to the shrapnel in his foot, but you must accept that this may not be the correct explanation.

That would be world's first foot hearing aid.

Again, we only have your uncle's word that his foot is hurting. I'm not suggesting he is lying, but if he turned up for the formal test with a previously unmentioned hearing aid, you can imagine that it would cause problems.

P.S. Nice to be among the woo crowd

I didn't mean you. There are people who watch these boards, and love to leap on the slightest fault. Many people wish to discredit the JREF.

 

[AgingYoung]

Cyborgs actually do exist; about 10% of the current U.S. population are estimated to be cyborgs in the technical sense, including people with electronic pacemakers, artificial joints, drug implant systems, implanted corneal lenses, and artificial skin.

I honestly don't think it would be a slight thing for jref to award the Randi to a cyborg; whether that bionic device was the product of some freak accident or it was a deliberate hoax. Just my humble opinion.

Gene