Some simple Tower 7 questions

[Gravy]

Just the opposite.
There was no 10 story hole because there was "no heavy debris....in the lobby area" and "the atrium glass was still intact".

Let us know when you can demonstrate that your claim has a shred of validity, okay?

 

[jaydeehess]

You asked: "how does this translate to no heavy debris in the lobby?"
But you were referring to the damage to the 3rd - 6th floor damage.

Would the 10 story hole described in the NIST report result in a pile of heavy debris in the lobby?

No one has responded to this question because the answer is yes

Read my post, The whooooole thing this time. That 3rd to 6th floor rip would also have resulted in heavy debris in the lobby.

 

[jaydeehess]

Just the opposite.
There was no 10 story hole because there was "no heavy debris....in the lobby area" and "the atrium glass was still intact".

At the fall of the SOUTH tower we have one person reporting

Never made it to that door. The next thing
that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.
Q. Were you injured?
A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured
at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass
impaled in my head,

So obviously even the south tower caused glasss to shatter in WTC 7. Yet you choose to believe that the glass of the atrium survived the fall of the much closer NORTH tower.

You say you do believe the report of steel ripped from the 3rd to 6th floor but tell us that Boyle is being misinterpreted because his account should have heavy debris in the lobby and you ignore the fact that the statement about the 3rd to 6th floor would also put heavy debris in the lobby.

Furthermore you wholly agree that everything in the building was covered by that monochromatic gray dust we all know so well yet you still maintain that all the glass was intact. How did so much dust get in the lobby if the glass was all intact? You ignore the idea that such a coating would make objects in the lobby all look the same and that only close up scrutiny would allow one to say that there was no large debris in the lobby.

You say that the only problem with the eyewitness testimony is a misinterpretation of Boyle's statement yet it is obvious that your stance is contradicted by several other statements whch you say you believe are true.

 

[Christopher7]

Let us know when you can demonstrate that your claim has a shred of validity, okay?

I have been doing just that for two pages including the post you just responded to.

"no heavy debris....in lobby" and "atrium glass was still intact"

The 10 story hole would have broken most if not all the atrium glass and left heavy debris in the lobby.

 

[Christopher7]

Read my post, The whooooole thing this time. That 3rd to 6th floor rip would also have resulted in heavy debris in the lobby.

Good point, but not necessairly so.

"....ripped steel out from between the third and the sixth floors accross the facade on Vessy Street".

Chief Fellini didnt say how wide or how deep that damage was.

This damage could have happened without leaving heavy debris in the lobby but the 10 story hole floor 10 to the ground would definately leave heavy debris in the lobby.

 

[Christopher7]

At the fall of the SOUTH tower we have one person reporting "everything came crashing through the front of number 7"
So obviously even the south tower caused glasss to shatter in WTC 7. Yet you choose to believe that the glass of the atrium survived the fall of the much closer NORTH tower.

Im quoting the NIST report [pg 18] "the atrium glass was still intact"

You say you do believe the report of steel ripped from the 3rd to 6th floor but tell us that Boyle is being misinterpreted because his account should have heavy debris in the lobby

Not quite. I said that the 10 story hole would leave heavy debris in the lobby.
Captain Boyle's statement refers to damage 'other than' the 10 story hole.

Furthermore you wholly agree that everything in the building was covered by that monochromatic gray dust we all know so well yet you still maintain that all the glass was intact.

Wrong. I did not say "all the glass was intact"

You ignore the idea that such a coating would make objects in the lobby all look the same and that only close up scrutiny would allow one to say that there was no large debris in the lobby.

A section of WTC 1 framework [or equivalent] big enough to make a 60' to 80' wide hole, along with the stuff it ripped out would have resulted in a large pile of heavy debris in the lobby that could not be missed by the firefighters exiting the building.

You say that the only problem with the eyewitness testimony is a misinterpretation of Boyle's statement

No. The problem is: the 60' to 80' hole floor 10 to the ground would have resulted in a large pile of heavy debris in the lobby.

 

[jaydeehess]

Im quoting the NIST report [pg 18] "the atrium glass was still intact".

That's the way NIST put it. Would you happen to have the exact quotes from which NIST gets this?

Not quite. I said that the 10 story hole would leave heavy debris in the lobby.
Captain Boyle's statement refers to damage 'other than' the 10 story hole..

Says you.

Wrong. I did not say "all the glass was intact"

Nice of you to notice that. Now how much atrium glass was intact and given that there are two atrium sections, east and west, where was the intact glass?

A section of WTC 1 framework [or equivalent] big enough to make a 60' to 80' wide hole, along with the stuff it ripped out would have resulted in a large pile of heavy debris in the lobby that could not be missed by the firefighters exiting the building.

Depends where the resultants debris went. Why do you make the assumption it was all one piece that created this damage? Some may well enter the building while some may well drag along the side of the building and end up on Vessey Street. That which enters the bulding need not end up in the lobby and since we know something rammed the elevator cars out of their shafts we know something entered not the lobby but the core of the building near the structures that NIST sims show were involved in the collapse.

No. The problem is: the 60' to 80' hole floor 10 to the ground would have resulted in a large pile of heavy debris in the lobby.

Again, says you. Given that much of the floors in question are high ceilinged they would contribute less to resultant debris and, the extent to which the interior is affected is not known and, (IIRC) the 5th floor is a heavy slab floor which would not neccessarily allow all debris through to the lobby. Heavy debris was indeed in Vessey Street and thus some portion of the damage to the front of WTC 7 could have the debris end up on the street. You have no way of being able to state how much should be in the lobby and you ignore the fact of obscuring dust hanging in the air and covering everything. You also ignore the fact that NIST was careful to state"• Damage to the south face was described by a number of individuals. While the accounts are mostly consistent, there are some conflicting descriptions:", and that this is only a preliminary report that will be ammended as info is gathered.

Obviously instead of looking for ways that the observations can fit you look for ways to use them to further your own agenda.

How's this senario. Two or more heavy sections of WTC 1 crash onto the front of WTC 7. One rolls along the outside of the building gouging out exterior columns and sending them into the street while that piece of WTC 1 also ends up in the street. The other hits WTC 7 and is deflected into the building, crashing into the core section sending elevators cars flying and causing unseen damage to the crucial load carrying trusses and columns nearby.

This happens more to the east side of the building and the east portion of the atrium while leaving the west end of the atrium and some of its glass intact.

Boyle looks up and sees this gash but also sees broken glass extending from 20th floor down to the ground along the same vertical line as the gash from 3 to 6 and in the dust and smoke he interprets it as all being gouged.

 

[Christopher7]

Im quoting the NIST report [pg18] "the atrium galss was still in tact"

That's the way NIST put it. Would you happen to have the exact quotes from which NIST gets this?

No, do you? NIST didnt say.

Page 18
Statement 1) middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of the south face was gouged out from floor 10 to the ground. [no source mentioned]

Statement 2) atrium glass was still intact [no source mentioned]
How can the glass be intact if the wall isnt there?

Statement 3) no heavy debris.... in the lobby area [firefighter statement]
A 10 story hole floor 10 to the ground would leave a lot of heavy debris in the lobby.

FIMA pg 20
Statement 4) only damage to the 9th floor facade at SW corner [firefighter statement]
No damage to the 9th floor facade in the middle of the building.

Oral Histories: Frank Fellini
Statement 5) steel ripped out from between 3rd and 6th floors.
Steel was not ripped out on the floors above and below floors 3 to 6.

Statement 1 is the only statement [evidence] of a 10 story hole floor 10 to the ground.

There are 4 equally valid statements [evidence] to the contrary.

You can not discount all 4 statements to the contrary.

A reasonible person, looking at the available statements [evidence] must conclude that the first statement is incorrect.

 

[Gravy]

Christopher7, let us know when you have evidence to back your opinions with, okay?

 

[Christopher7]

Christopher7, let us know when you have evidence to back your opinions with, okay?

Did you read my last post?

The only 'evidence' for the existance of the 10 story hole is a single statement in the NIST report.

There are 4 statements [evidence] to the contrary.

Your belief that the 10 story hole exists is bassed on that one statement in the NIST report.

 

[jaydeehess]

No, do you? NIST didnt say.

Page 18
Statement 1) middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of the south face was gouged out from floor 10 to the ground. [no source mentioned]

Statement 2) atrium glass was still intact [no source mentioned]
How can the glass be intact if the wall isnt there?

Statement 3) no heavy debris.... in the lobby area [firefighter statement]
A 10 story hole floor 10 to the ground would leave a lot of heavy debris in the lobby.

FIMA pg 20
Statement 4) only damage to the 9th floor facade at SW corner [firefighter statement]
No damage to the 9th floor facade in the middle of the building.

Oral Histories: Frank Fellini
Statement 5) steel ripped out from between 3rd and 6th floors.
Steel was not ripped out on the floors above and below floors 3 to 6.

Statement 1 is the only statement [evidence] of a 10 story hole floor 10 to the ground.

There are 4 equally valid statements [evidence] to the contrary.

You can not discount all 4 statements to the contrary.

A reasonible person, looking at the available statements [evidence] must conclude that the first statement is incorrect.

"• Damage to the south face was described by a number of individuals. While the accounts are mostly consistent, there are some conflicting descriptions:",

Then NIST recounts the basics of eyewitness testimony having already stated that some of them are not consistent.

The senario I posted above would explain how the eyewitnesses came to somewhat differing accounts. It is certainly as good as re-writing Boyle's testimony to fit your agenda of disputing any damage to the center of the building.

 

[jaydeehess]

Did you read my last post?

The only 'evidence' for the existance of the 10 story hole is a single statement in the NIST report.

There are 4 statements [evidence] to the contrary.

Your belief that the 10 story hole exists is bassed on that one statement in the NIST report.

I am not wedded to a 10 story hole. You seem wedded to the idea of no damage to the central portion of the building that could explain the damage that initiated the collapse, and THAT is all that is required. I repeat;
Two or more heavy sections of WTC 1 crash onto the front of WTC 7. One rolls along the outside of the building gouging out exterior columns and sending them into the street while that piece of WTC 1 also ends up in the street. The other hits WTC 7 and is deflected into the building, crashing into the core section sending elevators cars flying and causing unseen damage to the crucial load carrying trusses and columns nearby.

This happens more to the east side of the building and the east portion of the atrium while leaving the west end of the atrium and some of its glass intact.

Boyle looks up and sees this gash but also sees broken glass extending from 20th floor down to the ground along the same vertical line as the gash from 3 to 6 and in the dust and smoke he interprets it as all being gouged.

 

[HeyLeroy]

Good point, but not necessairly so.

(snip)

This damage could have happened without leaving heavy debris in the lobby but the 10 story hole floor 10 to the ground would definately leave heavy debris in the lobby.

Im quoting the NIST report [pg 18] "the atrium glass was still intact"

Not quite. I said that the 10 story hole would leave heavy debris in the lobby.Captain Boyle's statement refers to damage 'other than' the 10 story hole.

Wrong. I did not say "all the glass was intact"

A section of WTC 1 framework [or equivalent] big enough to make a 60' to 80' wide hole, along with the stuff it ripped out would have resulted in a large pile of heavy debris in the lobby that could not be missed by the firefighters exiting the building.

No. The problem is: the 60' to 80' hole floor 10 to the ground would have resulted in a large pile of heavy debris in the lobby.

Please provide your proof for the highlighted statements. Some form of engineering report would suffice.

 

[jaydeehess]

Please provide your proof for the highlighted statements. Some form of engineering report would suffice.

Simply an explanation as to why the heavy debris from a 10 story hole would have to result in it ending up in the lobby as opposed to damage to exterior columns from 3rd to 6th would not have to result in heavy debris ending up in the lobby would suffice.

An explanation as to why the heavy debris cannot end up on Vesey Street or the core portion of the building would also be in order.

 

[HeyLeroy]

That'd do, too, and would probably be easier.

As Maccy pointed to NDBoston's post, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2196679#post2196679
the street was full of debris.

 

[Christopher7]

Then NIST recounts the basics of eyewitness testimony having already stated that some of them are not consistent.

Yes. There are 'conflicting' accounts.

All the evidence of damage to the lower middle part of WTC 7 is from eyewitness statements.

There are 2 statements that 'conflict' with the 10 story hole on the same page, yet NIST ignored those and created a graphic showing this 10 story hole and the 'damage' that it did.

 

[DarkMagician]

Yes. There are 'conflicting' accounts.

All the evidence of damage to the lower middle part of WTC 7 is from eyewitness statements.

There are 2 statements that 'conflict' with the 10 story hole on the same page, yet NIST ignored those and created a graphic showing this 10 story hole and the 'damage' that it did.

The two got outvoted by many others and photographic evidence. Your two statements are the odd men out.

 

[Christopher7]

I am not wedded to a 10 story hole. You seem wedded to the idea of no damage to the central portion of the building

Either you are not reading my posts or your reading comprehension skills are impared. I have quoted the "damage between the 3rd and 6th floors" several times.

Two or more heavy sections of WTC 1 crash onto the front of WTC 7. One rolls along the outside of the building gouging out exterior columns and sending them into the street while that piece of WTC 1 also ends up in the street.

Thats absurd.

The other hits WTC 7 and is deflected into the building, crashing into the core section sending elevators cars flying and causing unseen damage to the crucial load carrying trusses and columns nearby.

One section gouges out exterior columns and then fall in the street while another is 'deflected' with enough force to take out interior columns and dislodge elevator cars.
Please

 

[Christopher7]

Post program shows me that its 'waiting for...' and just hangs there
So i kept trying. Hense the extra posts

 

[Christopher7]

xx