• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Some simple Tower 7 questions

Here's an interesting post from another thread:

NDBoston said:
Hi Wizard:

I was actually working at 7WTC on 9/11 and for three years previously.

I would love to tell you about the debris that started hitting out building almost right away after the first plane hit the towers.

In fact after I got down to the lobby from the 43rd floor, there was so much debris in the front of the building that we were forced to go through the back of the building and away from the area.

Throughout the 45 minutes it took to get down to the lobby, I heard numerous loud noises and heard reports of debris hitting the building and frankly it scared the **** out of me.

You might as well also disregard the fact there were people on most floors 7 days a week and with 24/7 on a few of the trading floors. We were packed in like sardines even before the merger and it got worse after. I personally worked on an average 85 hours a week.

I would love to find out how my building was wired for explosives while I worked there and I didn't see one significant construction project going on anywhere from the floors I frequented 28-45th.

In other words, try talking with people who actually worked in the building and lived through the experience instead of watching Google Video.
Click to expand...
 
Christopher7 said:
Thank you

Captain Boyle's statement is often used as the basis of or the confirmation of the 10 story hole in the NIST report.

I hope that i have put that misconseption to rest so we can remove that point from the debate.
Click to expand...

Well actually you have stated that the 10 storey hole was not at ground level. But now that you have finally decided to move on from picking at the exact location and extent of the damage to the center of the south face you can address the post I made before.

Christopher7, NIST ran computer sims that showed the projected collapse sequence for the loss of different columns. Is this accurate or not? If explosives were used did they get placed such that they would mimic the loss of the columns that the NIST sims show would cause the collapse sequence? Perhaps you'd like to comment on whether or not the sims were 'fixed' by someone. If so then please feel free to explain your evidence that they were.

If explosives were used in WTC 7 please feel free to show your empirical evidence of their use in such a way as to cause collapse in the sequence that was recorded in the videos(ie. east penthouse first , followed by the screenwall/west penthouse , followed by the movement of the north wall.).

If there is no way that a large piece of WTC 1 could have damaged the columns that the NIST sims illustrate were at fault for the east penthouse sinking please feel free to provide your reasoning that this is not possible.

If it is not possible that fires were attacking those same columns feel free to illustrate why not.
Click to expand...
 
Christopher7 said:
no problem

I read all 90.

I dont dissagree with them

Yes. There was extensive damage and uncontrolled fires

My point is:
Whereas: 4 firefighters described the following damage
Large debris hole near center of south face arround Floor 14
Only damage to 9th floor facade at SW corner
Steel ripped out between 3rd and 6th floors
No heavy debris in lobby
Click to expand...

OOPS,
The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street.
We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing.
Click to expand...

The lobby extended up from the second(ground ) floor to the ceiling of the 4th floor. If steel was 'ripped out' between the 3rd and 6th floor how does this translate to no heavy debris in the lobby? Seems one of these twoo FF's is not entirely correct in his statement. Why would that be C7?

Well what did a witness say about the collapses. We have one from a person in WTC 7 when the south tower collapsed. This is the tower furthest away from #7 and yet
Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened
we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower.
<<snip>>. I was just about to enter a
dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and
saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through
the revolving doors of number 7.
We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed
her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there
was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody
started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing
that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.
Q. Were you injured?
A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured
at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass
impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off
of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very
thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our
way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled
over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached
it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay.
We made our way over there.
Click to expand...

Lights in lobby area went out but those in the loading bay were on. Likely the lights in the lobby were broken since there was still power in the protected loading bay. This guy had glass in his head. The dust contributed to not being able to see at all.

So even at this early time, with the north tower still standing the lobby of WTC 7 has lost a lot of glass and was filled with dust.

and another report after the north tower fell
After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, re-
ported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was
with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard an-
other explosion. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the
53
lobby, or what was left of it "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked
like hell," Jennings said.
Click to expand...

Could it then be that the FF who reports 'no heavy debris' in the lobby was mistaken? Yes, the lobby was a shambles of broken glass, debris and everything was covered in a gray dust. I live in a northern climate and many is the time when some of the lonely roads I travel has been covered from ditch to ditch with new snow. No roadway is visible through the snow, no tire tracks either as I am often the first one down the road. It is very disconcerting because one simply cannot distiquish the edges of the road. I am also a downhill skier and there are times when the light is right, when you cannot distinquish the moguls. It all looks flat unless you where tinted glasses. In the lobby of WTC 7 on the morning of 9/11/01 there was a layer of monochromatic dust on everything and the light was very much diffused by dust and smoke hanging in the air. In such an enviroment one would have a hard time distinquishing objects under the dust, even fairly large ones. This does not mean that there was large debris in the lobby but there is no way to determine that there was not either.
 
You know, if my engineer on a project designed the structure such that massive parts of it could go AWOL and it still stood up, I'd be asking akward questions about over design and why our client paid more than they needed to.......
 
Architect said:
You know, if my engineer on a project designed the structure such that massive parts of it could go AWOL and it still stood up, I'd be asking akward questions about over design and why our client paid more than they needed to.......
Click to expand...
Well I assume that you might have had such questions prior to Sept 11/01 but perhaps you'd let it be now.;)
 
Nope, sorry. Only if the client had been briefed on and agreed the ramifications. Frankly, here in the UK jet liners are still not a credible risk.

You do know that we design a lot of public buildings in the UK to be bomb resistant, don't you? Result of 30 years of the IRA. Manchester can testify why we need to.

But not planes.


ETA: ironically, the only bit of the Scottish Parliament they didn't bomb proof was allegedly the media centre. :D
 
I was being somewhat sarcastic, Architect. Hence the ;)

However none of the buildings in question did indeed stand after massive parts of it went AWOL, at least not for long.

To believe some CT's any structure that does not immediatly fall due to acute damage should be able to remain standing almost forever. Others believe that the core of the towers were constructed in such a way as to allow them to stand alone, without the perimeter system of columns. Both views must seem incredulous to one trained as you are. I know it does to me and my engineering and physics is basic but solid having studied it for several years and used my knowledge ever since.
 
Christopher7 said:
The statement in the NIST report:

"middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of the south face was gouged out from floor 10 to the ground"

would leave a pile of heavy debris in the 1st floor lobby.

Do you agree or disagree ?
Click to expand...
Is anyone here willing to answer this question directly?

It is a very easy question. Why are you ignoring it?


Maccy: NDBoston said "debris in front of the building" not in the lobby.
 
Christopher7 said:
Is anyone here willing to answer this question directly?

It is a very easy question. Why are you ignoring it?


Maccy: NDBoston said "debris in front of the building" not in the lobby.
Click to expand...

I didn't.
from a post above ...
The lobby extended up from the second(ground ) floor to the ceiling of the 4th floor. If steel was 'ripped out' between the 3rd and 6th floor how does this translate to no heavy debris in the lobby? Seems one of these two FF's is not entirely correct in his statement. Why would that be C7?
Click to expand...

You can read the rest yourself http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2200383#post2200383
 
Last edited:
Christopher7 said:
The statement in the NIST report:

"middle 1/4 to 1/3 width of the south face was gouged out from floor 10 to the ground"

would leave a pile of heavy debris in the 1st floor lobby.

Do you agree or disagree ?
Click to expand...

You present a non question! A gouged out section of building does not mean there is Heavy debris in the 1st floor lobby.

If you would present more facts we could decide on your non question.

The things you state are not link yet. You have to present where the gouge is and then were this lobby is.

Questions;

Is the 1st floor all lobby?
Is it possible the witnesses were in a part of the lobby that had no debris?

Is it possible the upper floors captured the major parts of debris and the other large parts are outside?

Do you agree? Or disagree?

see? you ask a silly question, you have not presented enough facts so your question has no answer, it needs much more data!!!

Good luck

What is you point? If you think steel is the great non failing substance build your house from it. But since large structural wood can be more resistant to fire than structural steel you may want to learn much more before you hitch your wagon to nut cases in the no facts truth movement.
 
Would the 10 story hole described in the NIST report result in a pile of heavy debris in the lobby?

No one has responded to this question because the answer is yes

No one can dispute this without looking stupid

so when faced with an inconvenient fact, you-all choose to ignor it.
 
Christopher7 said:
Would the 10 story hole described in the NIST report result in a pile of heavy debris in the lobby?

No one has responded to this question because the answer is yes

No one can dispute this without looking stupid

so when faced with an inconvenient fact, you-all choose to ignor it.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll bite.

My answer is maybe. Depends on how exactly such a hole is made.
 
answer is yes it is possible to have a ten story gash with not all debris reaching the lobby.. It all depends on how the facade and other debris settled. The structural members could have compacted into a semi dense net which arrested further collapse and sloughed out into the street. Especially considering there were mechanical floors above the lobby which held huge transformers for the con ed sub station. Deutsch bank suffered a similar gash yet stood for 5 years now. And its gash didn't go to the ground as far as I can remember last time i was there.

http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm
 
Last edited:
Oh boy, another WTF argument from a CTer. Is there something in the water lately(besides fluoride)? Sheesh.

Black splotch near the UA93 crash site = conspiracy.
Slight irregularities in the Doubletree security video = conspiracy.
No debris in lobby of WTC 7 = conspiracy.

Forgive me Chris7, but I'm terribly confused here. What exactly are you arguing? Are you saying there wasn't a ten storey gash since there was no debris in the lobby? If so, first off - why are you so sure that debris would end up in the lobby? Why are you sure it didn't? Have you PMed NDBoston yet? Are you calling all of the people in Gravy's paper liars? Are you calling the hundreds of engineers who are studying the collapse incompetent, or worse?

I'm just asking questions.
 
A W Smith said:
answer is yes it is possible to have a ten story gash with not all debris reaching the lobby.. It all depends on how the facade and other debris settled. The structural members could have compacted into a semi dense net which arrested further collapse and sloughed out into the street. Especially considering there were mechanical floors above the lobby which held huge transformers for the con ed sub station.
Click to expand...
The mechanical spaces on the 6th floor were at the east and west sides of WTC 7 [pg 11 NIST Appendex L], NOT over the damage area depicted on pg 23 and 31.
The 2nd and 3rd floors were partly open and the 4th floor was entirely open over the lobby in the gouge area. [pg 8 & 9]*
Any large debris that made it thru the 5th floor would definitely end up in the 1st floor lobby.
NIST said " Floor 10 to the ground"
The gouge [supposidly] was 60' to 80' wide.
It would take a huge framework section [or equivalent] to make this hole.



http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm

Thats the SW corner, its right next to the Vorizon building.


*Drawings are reversed and mis-labeled on pg 8.
 
apathoid said:
Forgive me Chris7, but I'm terribly confused here. What exactly are you arguing? Are you saying there wasn't a ten storey gash since there was no debris in the lobby?
Click to expand...
Just the opposite.
There was no 10 story hole because there was "no heavy debris....in the lobby area" and "the atrium glass was still intact".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom