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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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LAL, Hunster......

I am a lurker on the BFF, never had any experience with bigfoot myself, but started to read some sightings one day and got hooked.

Reason to Believe - There are some credible people who have spent lots of time and effort in trying to find evidence. Seems to have been a life changing experience for some people.

Reason Not to Believe - Eyewitnesses can be wrong, or misinterpret what they see. And there is far too little physical proof, and somtimes what they claim as proof is more wishful thinking.

Even though I have never actually searched for Bigfoot, I think give me a week where recent credible sightings have occurred, then if he exists I would find him. I know there are people out there looking, why can they not find anything if he does exist.

More time I spend looking at the bigfoot sites, the more I doubt there is anything there. But true, there are some very credible sightings, just wish there was more substantial evidence
 
You might want to check out some reports.

I have reports and books on Bigfoot. The way I see it "talk is cheap" the "proof is in the pudding". Produce a body (a bone, some hair, anything with some sort of unique DNA) and all will be proven
 
BD accused Noll of "posturing" and "covering up"; that was about the worst I saw. There are some who seem to think "research" consists of tearing down other researchers without contributing anything of their own. BD and JimF proceeded on false information, and, to my knowlege, didn't retract.
And Noll bit right back ..

Let's see if we have this straight..

In spite of some people who questions Nolls demeanor and methods, his fan club ( attentive audience ) pretty much resides at BFF.

An off-site incident, where someone is using Nolls work for their own personal gain and fame, gets a lot of discussion at BFF, and results in Noll withdrawing his
participation at BFF ..

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=16855&view=findpost&p=359320

I am going underground with my own research and in the future if anybody wants something from me they will have to come directly to me an enter the chain of custody and eliminate their ignorance.


So, because of something that happened completely out of the purview
of BFF, Noll uses this as an excuse to cut himself off from the group of people
that hold him up as an expert in Bigfoot lore ..

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that some of the most sacred relics of Footery have recently been shown to be nonsense ..

Instead of being angry with the mighty OZ for taking his toys and going home, the accolytes are angry at the imagined detractors who ripped away the curtain ...
 
LAL, Hunster......
More time I spend looking at the bigfoot sites, the more I doubt there is anything there. But true, there are some very credible sightings, just wish there was more substantial evidence

The sightings that are especially intriquing are the ones with physical evidence to back them up.

Dr. Meldrum has close to 200 casts in his collection. I highly recommend reading his book (rather than just looking at websites).
 
I have reports and books on Bigfoot. The way I see it "talk is cheap" the "proof is in the pudding". Produce a body (a bone, some hair, anything with some sort of unique DNA) and all will be proven

Stay tuned.
 
Credible sightings? What makes them credible, apart from the claimant appearing to be sincere?

I think multi witness sightings are credible. Not proven, but credible. There are some credible multi witness sightings.
 
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Footprints have been over done...you cant get any closer to proof with footprints, and too many people have hoaxed them.

And yes when i said credible I meant sincere sightings. These people are not crazy or dishonest, but they might be mistaken. I do hope its true, would be a great find, I am just having my doubts.
 
...you cant get any closer to proof with footprints.....

That's right. More footprints aren't going to cut it.

And (despite what many here claim) photos aren't gonna cut it, either.

The skeptics demand proof, the believers want proof, and the denialists like it just the way it is.

And since the search is being conducted by unfunded amateur weekenders, it might be a while before proof is forthcoming.



And yes when i said credible I meant sincere sightings.

There are some excellent sighting reports out there. I particularly like the reported law enforcement sightings.
 
Footprints have been over done...you cant get any closer to proof with footprints, and too many people have hoaxed them.

Not really. There have been few hoaxers and many trackways where hoaxing seems out of the question. Hoaxers aren't going to be able to get the foot anatomy correct, especially when the events are separated by many miles and years.

Check this out regarding Bob Titmus:

"Bob was a hunter all his life, and was also a master taxidermist, so he knew a lot more about animal sign and animal anatomy than most of us. He also had almost unlimited patience and perseverance, great assets when looking for individual hairs in the underbrush. What’s more, his subconscious mind was tuned to continuously check out animal tracks from a moving car no matter what else had his attention, the way most of us are subconsciously aware of the traffic around us.

From the time in 1958 when his old friend Jerry Crew came back from the Bluff Creek road job with a cast that proved that the huge tracks were not just big bear tracks, Bob devoted all the time he could afford to the search for the track maker.

Initial success came quickly. After only a few weeks he and his friend Ed Patrick, who is here today, found on a sandbar in Bluff Creek slightly smaller tracks of distinctly different shape, proving that “Bigfoot” was not just a freak individual, but a member of a population. The casts that Bob made on that early occasion are on display in the museum, and are still among the best ever made anywhere.

Progress was much slower after that, and a few years later Bob abandoned his beloved taxidermy, selling his business so that he could spend full time in what was then a hot area on the coast of British Columbia. There he suffered back injuries that left him fighting extreme pain for the rest of his life, but he kept up the hunt, including many returns for weeks or months at Bluff Creek. On one of those trips he made his invaluable series of footprint casts from the Patterson film site, and on another he drained a pond to get at what I consider are probably the only genuine hand impressions ever cast.

Another accomplishment, which should have settled this whole matter years ago, was gathering one by one from twigs where he had reason to believe a sasquatch had passed, a set of hairs that were identified by radioimmunoassay as having to be either chimpanzee, gorilla or human.

The eminent scientist who made the identification had previously established by the same method that chimpanzees are more closely related to humans than to gorillas, a finding since confirmed through DNA, so that identification was as good as saying “it’s something close to all three but not any of them.”

Bob knew they were not human hairs, because there were guard hairs that all tapered to a point, while human guard hairs, all on the head, grow continuously and have cut-off ends."

http://www.bigfootproject.org/articles/green_keynote.html

Assertions by sceptics that such tracks are "easily faked" are simply wrong.

And this concerning Bossburg:

"Grover Krantz, an anthropologist at Washington State University, reconstructed the skeletal structure of the foot from casts of the Bossburg prints. He discovered the ankle was positioned further forwards than in a human foot and used his knowledge of physical anthropology and the reported weight and height of Sasquatches to calculate exactly how far forward the ankle was set. Further examination of the casts confirmed that the position of the ankle exactly matched his theoretical calculations, causing him to observe:

In my judgement, no hoaxer could have figured out just how far forward to shift the ankle for a biped of the indicated size, then have left footprints with some subtle distortions that just might lead an anatomist to the reconstruction I have made ... I figured the whole thing out after studying the footprints; any hoaxer had to plan it all out from nothing. (Krantz 1992, p.63)"

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/bf_prints.html


The forward ankle can be observed in the PGF. Bossburg was in 1969, Bluff Creek in 1967.
 
There are some excellent sighting reports out there. I particularly like the reported law enforcement sightings.


Sheriff Closner's comment after the Cox sighting was, "I guess I'll have to stop laughing."

A friend of mine who investigated in Whitehall told me there was a standoff by one defending a deer kill. Six officers were present, he said. I haven't found that report, but here's this:

http://americanbigfootsocietycleari.../11/review-squatch-detective-radio-11-27.html
 
What say someone (I'm happy to be involved if anyone's interested in actually doing this) devise a simple set of exercises using casts, photos, and/or footprint sites of real human tracks, and fake ones (made using say, a manikin's feet, or other prosthetics)? The object will be to see if any of the self-proclaimed BF "experts" can, as they claim, differentiate between prints made by real feet, and prints made by forgeries. If, as they claim, these master trackers can actually pick out real from false prints, hoorah! If not...well...

Any of the BF-supporters here want to try it and see if this is worthwhile?

I seem to recall someone submitting a bunch of photos to the BFF for people to guess which were human and which were purported squatch prints. LAL, you remember anything about that?

Sounds like a viable experiment.

RayG
 
I'm not Daniel Boone, but I'm an experienced outdoorsman. Got the trophies and photos to prove it, too.

And I've never hired a guide. It has all been do-it-yourself.

And I still say that the argument that "someone should be able to track down a sasquatch" is silly.

No, I'm not a very good tracker, but I'm certainly better than many.

Do you honestly think that people go around deep in the wilderness and manufacture bigfoot prints on the outside chance that someone will see them?

They even count animals from out of space with satilites...
Got some evidence of that?


Just a few things....

1. I still can't understand your logic is saying that Bigfoot can't be tracked? I still can't see why a 10 foot creature that smells can't be tracked. I really think you need to rethink this assumption

2. As a tracker, you must be aware of satilites being used to track and count animals. Google it, mate

3. As yes I do think people fake footprints - How many have already been faked? Everyone wants to be famous. I just can't understand a hunter who sees a bigfoot and then can't resist the temptation to shoot it - they would be famous forever.
 
Simon, I am only guessing here of course, and am not attempting to put words in Huntsters mouth, but I think he assumes it cannot be tracked, since it might be too clever. Either that or no hunter would track it since it is apparently dangerous and would kill the hunter. I am surmising that last part from Huntster's reluctance to follow the Bigfoot sign any further than he did. Although I am not sure why he'd be willing to track bears which are quite dangerous as well, and yet be unwilling to go after a bigfoot.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
I'm not Daniel Boone, but I'm an experienced outdoorsman. Got the trophies and photos to prove it, too.

And I've never hired a guide. It has all been do-it-yourself.

And I still say that the argument that "someone should be able to track down a sasquatch" is silly.

No, I'm not a very good tracker, but I'm certainly better than many.

Do you honestly think that people go around deep in the wilderness and manufacture bigfoot prints on the outside chance that someone will see them?

They even count animals from out of space with satilites...
Got some evidence of that?
Just a few things....

1. I still can't understand your logic is saying that Bigfoot can't be tracked? I still can't see why a 10 foot creature that smells can't be tracked. I really think you need to rethink this assumption

Alright. How about if I restate my position thusly:

A bigfoot will not be tracked by a man without the assistance of technology or dogs. Why?

The people who are capable to do so aren't in the program.

2. As a tracker, you must be aware of satilites being used to track and count animals. Google it, mate

Follow your own advice; google it.

You'll find that the aerial game counting and assessments are either done with small aircraft and a couple of sets of eyes, or with high altitude aircraft photography and infrared.

You'll also find that such methods are used in appropriate habitat. It is not used in dense rainforest habitats for what should be obvious reasons.

Last night I was at a post-Xmas party with family and longtime friends. One of those friends is a pilot who contracts annually with the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game, providing flights for biologists for (primarily) moose counts in Game Management Unit 14. He hold me they didn't do the count this year. The snow came late (the snow helps visibility on the ground, so you can more easily see the moose), and by the time the snow came, many of the bulls had dropped their antlers (thus the biologists couldn't get the bull/cow ratio).

The count was called off this year.

Thus goes "science". Like everything else, it is limited.

Get the clue..............................

3. As yes I do think people fake footprints - How many have already been faked?

I don't know. I don't even know how many have been proven faked, or what the ratio of known fakes is compared with those not proven to be faked.

Nor do you.

Everyone wants to be famous.

I guess that would help decide the number of fakes, huh?

And if prints are found miles from human activity, and nobody who "wants to be famous" steps up to claim their fame, then that's evidence of authenticity, right?

I just can't understand a hunter who sees a bigfoot and then can't resist the temptation to shoot it - they would be famous forever.

Believe it or not, some folks don't want fame. I'm one. Been there. It sucks.

Also, many of the hunters who have claimed to see these creatures while armed said they couldn't bring themselves to shoot it because it was too "human." Like William Roe:

.....Finally the wild thing must have got my scent, for it looked directly at me through an opening in the brush. A look of amazement crossed its face. It looked so comical at the moment I had to grin. Still in a crouched position, it backed up three or four short steps, then straightened up to its full height and started to walk rapidly back the way it had come. For a moment it watched me over its shoulder as it went, not exactly afraid, but as though it wanted no contact with anything strange.

The thought came to me that if I shot it, I would possibly have a specimen of great interest to scientists the world over. I had heard stories of the Sasquatch, the giant hairy Indians that live in the legends of British Columbia Indians, and also many claim, are still in fact alive today. Maybe this was a Sasquatch, I told myself.

I levelled my rifle. The creature was still walking rapidly away, again turning its head to look in my direction. I lowered the rifle. Although I have called the creature "it", I felt now that it was a human being and I knew I would never forgive myself if I killed it......

I've shot lots of critters. I don't think I could have squeezed the trigger in the above situation, either. Even if I hadn't made eye contact with it and it was farther away, it might be still difficult to shoot at such a human figure.

Arguing with denialists for a year or two ought to help that situation. I'll be more willing to blow a hole through one in order to feed crow to fools.

And isn't that a wicked thing?.........................

The sad part about that is that afterwards the same science industry that is digging in it's heels now will be the entity that profits the most from the discovery.
 
Simon, I am only guessing here of course, and am not attempting to put words in Huntsters mouth, but I think he assumes it cannot be tracked, since it might be too clever.

I certainly think that tracking one would be as difficult (and maybe even more so) than tracking a cougar.

Ever hear of anyone doing that without dogs?

In addition to having keen senses like a cat, the sasquatch may have an intellect greater than the cat.

Either that or no hunter would track it since it is apparently dangerous and would kill the hunter. I am surmising that last part from Huntster's reluctance to follow the Bigfoot sign any further than he did. Although I am not sure why he'd be willing to track bears which are quite dangerous as well, and yet be unwilling to go after a bigfoot.

I've found lot's of bear tracks over the years. Lot's.

I don't track them. I leave them alone (most of the time).

When I've actually hunted bears, I'll bait or call them while sitting in a tree, or sit overlooking a moose or caribou gutpile. Then, after shooting the bear, I've gotta track the thing down because of my responsibility to utilize what I've harvested.

And yes, it can be quite dangerous and/or spooky. But the bear already has a hole in him. I always give him time to "stiffen up" before I go rummaging around for him.

I've never had to track down a large, wounded grizzly. The brown bear shootings I've been in on were 2 or more on 1. They were more like gangland shootings. We had the odds, and utilized them. If I'm one on one with a grizzly, I have no intention of getting in his way unless I've got it all set up my way, and I simply don't have any desire to do that anymore.

I hunt black bears for a couple of reasons:

1) Brown bears taste like crap
2) Brown bears are damned resilient, and are not commonly dropped with a single shot
3) Brown bears are damned resilient, and tend to get really pissed off when they've been shot
4) Brown bears are damned resilient, and are really, really dangerous when pissed off.
 
Alright. How about if I restate my position thusly:

A bigfoot will not be tracked by a man without the assistance of technology or dogs. Why?

The people who are capable to do so aren't in the program.

I agree

You'll find that the aerial game counting and assessments are either done with small aircraft and a couple of sets of eyes, or with high altitude aircraft photography and infrared.

You'll also find that such methods are used in appropriate habitat. It is not used in dense rainforest habitats for what should be obvious reasons.

Last night I was at a post-Xmas party with family and longtime friends. One of those friends is a pilot who contracts annually with the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game, providing flights for biologists for (primarily) moose counts in Game Management Unit 14. He hold me they didn't do the count this year. The snow came late (the snow helps visibility on the ground, so you can more easily see the moose), and by the time the snow came, many of the bulls had dropped their antlers (thus the biologists couldn't get the bull/cow ratio).

The count was called off this year.

Thus goes "science". Like everything else, it is limited.

Get the clue..............................

I remember reading in a national geographic about animals being counted by satilite on the African plains - can't quote volume number though - it was in a doctors waiting room

Most tracking these days is done with GPS satilities. The CSIRO in Australia does quite a bit of it. With Australia being such a large country, it makes it a lot easier

I agree science is limited - but its the best we have. And as each year passes and we learn more and more it becomes less so.

You have to admitt though, with no fossil record it's a bit hard to make bigfoot totally beleiveable

I wouldn't put to much faith in Indian legends. Big hairy men crop up in most people's legends. Check out a book called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. It goes into why tribal legends should the same from one culture to another

I don't know. I don't even know how many have been proven faked, or what the ratio of known fakes is compared with those not proven to be faked.

Nor do you.

I guess that would help decide the number of fakes, huh?

And if prints are found miles from human activity, and nobody who "wants to be famous" steps up to claim their fame, then that's evidence of authenticity, right?

Believe it or not, some folks don't want fame. I'm one. Been there. It sucks.

Also, many of the hunters who have claimed to see these creatures while armed said they couldn't bring themselves to shoot it because it was too "human." Like William Roe:

I've shot lots of critters. I don't think I could have squeezed the trigger in the above situation, either. Even if I hadn't made eye contact with it and it was farther away, it might be still difficult to shoot at such a human figure.

Arguing with denialists for a year or two ought to help that situation. I'll be more willing to blow a hole through one in order to feed crow to fools.

And isn't that a wicked thing?.........................

The sad part about that is that afterwards the same science industry that is digging in it's heels now will be the entity that profits the most from the discovery.

I used to hunt when I was younger. These days I just can't do it. I don't even like to fish. Though I still eat meat. I would be hard I suppose to shoot such a creature if you were to come across one.

I think that at the end of the day we can go back and forth about what can and can't be proved. Perhaps one day.......

It has been a pleasure discussing this topic with you
 
Alright. How about if I restate my position thusly:

A bigfoot will not be tracked by a man without the assistance of technology or dogs. Why?

The people who are capable to do so aren't in the program.

I agree

You'll find that the aerial game counting and assessments are either done with small aircraft and a couple of sets of eyes, or with high altitude aircraft photography and infrared.

You'll also find that such methods are used in appropriate habitat. It is not used in dense rainforest habitats for what should be obvious reasons.

Last night I was at a post-Xmas party with family and longtime friends. One of those friends is a pilot who contracts annually with the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game, providing flights for biologists for (primarily) moose counts in Game Management Unit 14. He hold me they didn't do the count this year. The snow came late (the snow helps visibility on the ground, so you can more easily see the moose), and by the time the snow came, many of the bulls had dropped their antlers (thus the biologists couldn't get the bull/cow ratio).

The count was called off this year.

Thus goes "science". Like everything else, it is limited.

Get the clue..............................

I remember reading in a national geographic about animals being counted by satilite on the African plains - can't quote volume number though - it was in a doctors waiting room

Most tracking these days is done with GPS satilities. The CSIRO in Australia does quite a bit of it. With Australia being such a large country, it makes it a lot easier

I agree science is limited - but its the best we have. And as each year passes and we learn more and more it becomes less so.

You have to admitt though, with no fossil record it's a bit hard to make bigfoot totally beleiveable

I wouldn't put to much faith in Indian legends. Big hairy men crop up in most people's legends. Check out a book called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. It goes into why tribal legends should the same from one culture to another

I don't know. I don't even know how many have been proven faked, or what the ratio of known fakes is compared with those not proven to be faked.

Nor do you.

I guess that would help decide the number of fakes, huh?

And if prints are found miles from human activity, and nobody who "wants to be famous" steps up to claim their fame, then that's evidence of authenticity, right?

Believe it or not, some folks don't want fame. I'm one. Been there. It sucks.

Also, many of the hunters who have claimed to see these creatures while armed said they couldn't bring themselves to shoot it because it was too "human." Like William Roe:

I've shot lots of critters. I don't think I could have squeezed the trigger in the above situation, either. Even if I hadn't made eye contact with it and it was farther away, it might be still difficult to shoot at such a human figure.

Arguing with denialists for a year or two ought to help that situation. I'll be more willing to blow a hole through one in order to feed crow to fools.

And isn't that a wicked thing?.........................

The sad part about that is that afterwards the same science industry that is digging in it's heels now will be the entity that profits the most from the discovery.

I used to hunt when I was younger. These days I just can't do it. I don't even like to fish. Though I still eat meat. I would be hard I suppose to shoot such a creature if you were to come across one.

I think that at the end of the day we can go back and forth about what can and can't be proved. Perhaps one day.......

It has been a pleasure discussing this topic with you
 
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