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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Big difference though: Ivory-bills have been known to exist for quite some time. Bigfoot hasn't.
And the footage and photos of the Ivory-bill make it pretty clear that it couldn't be anything else...not so Patterson's.
 
Big difference though: Ivory-bills have been known to exist for quite some time. Bigfoot hasn't.

It has to aboriginals and folks who have seen them or evidence of them.

It appears that science is the late-comer here.

And the footage and photos of the Ivory-bill make it pretty clear that it couldn't be anything else.

There are plenty who believe the footage is that of a pileated woodpecker.

..not so Patterson's.

Patterson's film is either that of a sasquatch or a man in a suit. There are no other reasonable options.

There are plenty of factors regarding the film which suggest that it is not a man. Since there is no proof, science rejects it.

My position is that instead of rejecting it, science (especially those with wildlife management responsibilities) should be investigating with a bit more interest.
 
But back to basics: there's no body, no poop, no hair, no blood, no bones, no clear photos, just footprints that never match other footprints and lots of stories and blurry photos.

When all the individual bits of data:
"dermal" ridges
non-matching prints
blurry photos
Elk impressions
cow hairs
nylon hairs
fake videos
fake photos
coyote howls
are examined, there's really not that much to go on. I don't blame any wildlife or scientific group for being dismissive of this less than impressive "data." I've pursued this subject on my own time, on my own dime, and out of my own curiosity. And I've found that there's really not a lot (if anything) aside from a few stories I've heard from a couple of people I trust. But the physical evidence is simply lacking.
 
Yep!
I've made them in dry sand, on moist sand, on dry silt, and even dry mud. All it takes is some sort of dessicant in the matrix. This can be elevated salinity, or mineralogical composition as is the case when certain clay minerals like illite or kaolinite or smectite are present, or simply degree of dry-ness of the matrix. Very repeatable and very open-and-shut. The Onion Mtn. and other casts listed above show dessication, not dermals...case closed.:D
On to the Patterson Film!

I think some people may underestimate Desertyeti, as his public "style" as it were is somewhat freewheeling and hyperbolic. I think this is going to take several years to really sink in, but I think that history is going to record that Dr. Wroblewski has almost single handedly demolished about half of what passes for strong physical evidence for the existence of Sasquatch.
For my part, once I saw how the elk features matched up with the features of the Skookum cast, I more or less had an epiphany. Up until that time I posted freely on Bigfoot Forums, and in fact was a member of two of these Bigfoot groups. I was so shocked that the best and brightest of Bigfootery couldn't (or wouldn't) see the obvious that I decided that I really didn't want to participate in such an enterprise.
Up until fairly recently, skepticism about the "dermal ridges" was always focused on things like "expanding a latex mold of real dermal ridges" then using that to impress into the soil. No one really considered that at least some of these textures were simply an interaction between cement and soil.
While I'd like to see the textures of Paul Freeman's "Wrinkle Foot" cast duplicted, it is obvious to me that they are NOT dermal ridges. I examined and photographed a cast copy made by Jeff Meldrum in Bellingham, and have examinded other cast copies. The textures of "Wrinkle Foot" are simply way too big, too irregular and way too dendritic to be real dermal ridges. You don't need to be a human fingerprint expert to see the obvious.
Again, it's a case of WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???
Until the Internet came along, and the specifics of this physical evidence publicly and openly examined, people like Grover Krantz could hold court and make claims about a lot of this stuff which really couldn't be publicly examined. Or you would get fuzzy black and white photos in books or journals.
Until very recently, the only texture on the "Onion Mountian" cast was a black and white plate in Coleman's book or a quick shot in Legend Meets Science. But until I posted photographs on Bigfoot Forums and later on my own website of OTHER textures on the cast, no one knew about this stuff. Even Jeff Meldrum's book only includes one patch of "desiccation ridges" on the OM cast.
Bigfootery has changed over the years. Back in the 1960's and 1970's it was more focused on the "hunt" for Bigfoot. You would see Dahinden out there in the bush, sometimes with a long arm in hand, looking for the Sasquatch. "Something is making those goddamn tracks", was his motto.
Now it's more about promotion. We have the book and TV show "Legend Meets Science", which purports that there is lots of strong physical evidence. The focus is not really on the search anymore, it's on promoting these claims.
Well, now you have a problem, because once you allow what claims to be strong physical evidence to be critically examined, it more or less falls apart. Frankly I think the advocates have severly overplayed their hand.
To make the claim there exists "strong physical evidence" for Bigfoot means you at least have to go through the motions of being scientific. That means you have to allow independant examination of this stuff. I find it a great irony that it was John Green himself who commisioned the duplication of the Skookum Elk cast, on the grounds that IT SHOULD BE TAKEN AROUND THE COUNTRY AND EXAMINED BY UNIVERSITY PROFESSIONALS. Well, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED!!!! It was examined by a professional, and the obviousness of the elk impression was publicized.
This has been the worst decade for Bigfoot advocacy of them all;

1. Ray Wallace hoax trackways
2. Dermals and desiccation ridges
3. Skookum Elk cast
4. Patterson revelations
5. Steenburg and Matthew's coyote call discovery

The advocates have been pushed into a frenzy of defending ever more tenuous physical evidence, which makes for a rather cult-like enterprise. One which I am no longer willing to participate in. I like the idea of Bigfoot, but I don't like the quasi-religious promotion of it by the human beings involved.
 
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Patterson's film is either that of a sasquatch or a man in a suit. There are no other reasonable options.

Yep, and there is no good reason to pick either at this point.

My position is that instead of rejecting it, science (especially those with wildlife management responsibilities) should be investigating with a bit more interest.

Offer to show the original film to some scientists then. I can't imagine scientists refusing to look at the original P/G film. If it were made available some scientists would certainly take a look at it. Just don't ask them not to reveal what they think about it.

My guess, you will have the same result in your quote above. It's either bigfoot, or a man in a bigfoot suit.

If scientists get the opportunity to do a thorough examination of the original P/G film and refuse to do so, what has anyone lost? Believers will at least have solid evidence that they are being ignored.
 
I believe you've posted in the past that you oppose public funding for a sasquatch investigation.

I opposed Meldrum getting public money, I believe.

In any event, I now have no opposition to a proper scientific effort.

If Biscardi shows up though, all bets are off. :D
 
Originally posted by William Parcher: The true original footage would be the developed film as it came out of Roger's camera. I don't think anyone can say that they ever saw this. If P&G put together a hoax, it's likely that the film got edited (spliced). That includes each of the rolls. What could possibly be "found in the scenery" is evidence of editing, discontinuities, timeline problems, etc.

The 2nd Reel is described as containing riding scenes (before the encounter) and the tracks & casting of them (after the encounter). But we often think of the 2nd Reel as the one Roger loaded after he ran out of film after Patty. It shouldn't contain scenes from before the encounter unless it was edited, right?


DeAtley, McClarin and Green saw the "true original", of those still living at the first screening.

The second roll contained shots of Roger making casts, the prints, Roger holding casts....... The first was mostly scenery. If the BBC had found something suspicious on the second roll, don't you think they would have made a big deal out of it?

The riding scenes were on the first roll, before the encounter:

"These are still frame photographs of shots from the first 75 feet of the Patterson/Gimlin film, and shots of the creature as it goes into the forest. The first image shows Patterson (I believe) with the pack horse. You can't really see much, but I thought it was rather picturesque. The next shot shows Gimlin at a distance with the pack horse. Then there are three shots of Patterson with a colorful autumn-forest background. Again, nothing earth-shaking, but intriguing. The next shot shows Gimlin and the pack horse on a dirt road. I will mention here that the nearest paved road to where they were was about 25 miles away.

For certain, the whole region is very colorful in autumn, and this is what inspired Patterson to take movie footage. I don't think he had an inkling that he would see a bigfoot, so just shot footage, or had Gimlin do so, whenever he wished. What was probably going through his mind for his documentary was to take this kind of footage and explain that the region was very primitive and beautiful, and highly suitable for bigfoot existence. To this he would add shots of any footprints he found (at that time or earlier), and then include several interviews with people who had seen the creature. I would have done exactly the same thing."

http://forum.hancockhouse.com/article.php/20060831163051110

Dahinden took a sceptical approach, but found nothing in his investigaion to indicate a hoax.

Lu, what do you mean when you say, "DeAtley, McClarin and Green saw the 'true original'"? Do you mean they saw the film exactly as it came out of Roger's camera with no cutting & splicing?

We have been presented with a montage of still frames from "Roll 2". This includes scenes of horseback riding. Were riding scenes from before the Patty encounter spliced into Roll 2? If not, why do the stills from Roll 2 show pre-Patty horseback riding?

A student of the PGF is also left wondering about a few postings on BFF. Some have said that there was film footage viewed of RP making plaster castings of faked footprints that he had made. This footage is described as being a demonstration that was intentionally filmed by RP to show the process of gathering Bigfoot evidence. Where is this footage? What "roll" is it on? Should students of the PGF seek out any detailed information on the history of this "footprint casting demonstration footage"?

Roger Patterson had made some fake plaster Bigfoot footprints and showed them to a camera shop owner to get his opinions about them prior to filming Patty. Is this true? Did RP actually make fake plaster castings of Bigfoot footprints before filming Patty?
 
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My position is that instead of rejecting it, science (especially those with wildlife management responsibilities) should be investigating with a bit more interest.
Offer to show the original film to some scientists then.

I can't. I don't have the original film.

I can't imagine scientists refusing to look at the original P/G film.

I can't imagine what that would accomplish.

Just don't ask them not to reveal what they think about it.

Who says I give much of a damn what they think about it?

My guess, you will have the same result in your quote above. It's either bigfoot, or a man in a bigfoot suit.

I'm not a "scientist", and I can figure that out.

If scientists get the opportunity to do a thorough examination of the original P/G film and refuse to do so, what has anyone lost?

If scientists get the opportunity to do a thorough examination of the original PB film, and do so, what will anyone gain?

Believers will at least have solid evidence that they are being ignored.

We already have that.
 
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I believe you've posted in the past that you oppose public funding for a sasquatch investigation.
I opposed Meldrum getting public money, I believe.

The one scientist studying the phenomenon, and you oppose funding his work?

And what is your opinion on SETI funding?

In any event, I now have no opposition to a proper scientific effort.

Why do I strongly doubt that claim?
 
The advocates have been pushed into a frenzy of defending ever more tenuous physical evidence, which makes for a rather cult-like enterprise. One which I am no longer willing to participate in. I like the idea of Bigfoot, but I don't like the quasi-religious promotion of it by the human beings involved.

How about the quasi religious frenzy of the scoftics and debunkers? I mean, don't they have anything better to do? What are they so bothered and upset about? Why should they care so much?

Beats me. I mean, I don't care about trying to convince a radical Muslim that his belief is based on bullspit.:boggled:

Got better things to do with my life.
 
How about the quasi religious frenzy of the scoftics and debunkers? I mean, don't they have anything better to do? What are they so bothered and upset about? Why should they care so much?

Beats me. I mean, I don't care about trying to convince a radical Muslim that his belief is based on bullspit.:boggled:

Got better things to do with my life.

Being neither a scoftic nor a debunker, but a scientist (on who actually cares about accurately representing the data), I can answer at least for myself: I'm interested in sharing what I've learned by examining the available information and comparing it with my own experiences and knowledge of animal tracks and sediment-animal interaction. I'm also a bit tired of people like John Green and the BFRO claiming that scientists as a whole ignore data, refuse to investigate, yadda yadda. Also, people who make silly claims like "Tube's tracks were made in volcaninc ash, not Onion Mtn. soil...so his results are dubious" when any soil scientist worth a damn knows that Onion Mtn. soil is composed primarily of volcanic ash with constituent organic debris! All of this is patently false and misleading, so even though I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm interested in providing others with the observations and interpretations I (as a scientist) have made regarding purported BF evidence. Seems many BF-enthusiasts fall back on the opinions and views of one or two of their "favorite" scientists like Meldrum and Krantz, while ignoring the views of countless others (read books by Pyle Wylie, and others for the views of several researchers). I find this faciniating and disturbing considering the way politicians are playing with science these days. Few people actually investigate scientific problems on their own, but prefer instead to align themselves with strong personalities who have a particular angle (usually that they're being unfairly targeted by monolithic, evil forces) to their interpretations (see the BFF for a recent example of this behavior)...pity actually.
 
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Maybe.

Now, produce something that indicates a recent dragon sighting.

Produce a dragon footprint.

Produce a dragon photo.


Well it might be easier to fake Bigfeet photos and prints since you can fit men into bigfoot suits and, perhaps, make bigfoot feet to create fake prints. I don't think the same could be said of dragons.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Maybe.

Now, produce something that indicates a recent dragon sighting.

Produce a dragon footprint.

Produce a dragon photo.
Well it might be easier to fake Bigfeet photos and prints since you can fit men into bigfoot suits and, perhaps, make bigfoot feet to create fake prints. I don't think the same could be said of dragons.

That's true.

So why are there dragon legends?
 
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