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Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

Darth Rotor said:
It is my understanding that John 3:16's meaning is that God sacrificed for men/Man, on the behalf of men/Man, not to men/Man.
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Nevertheless, it is still stated directly that it is GOD doing the sacrificing. Is he sacrificing to himself? And what exactly is he giving up? His son, is with him all the time, either on earth or in heaven, so that isn't a sacrifice. All he has done is deprive humans of Jesus's wisdom. So really, it is the humans doing the sacrificing, even if not by choice. Is this just another way of God making people suffer?
 
Do worry, they will spin some more yarns about their so-called god and out of date bible.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Mr Clingford said:
Jesus wasn't nice, wasn't staying meek and mild in the manger, disturbing no-one and saying' "Don't mind me, get on with things, being selfish and hurting others is fine with me". He said, 'Stop being so bloody self-centred because you actually get more out of life by looking outwards, to others, rather than trying to look after Number 1 all the time'. We struggle and fail to combine 'God is Love' and 'God doesn't like us hurting each other and wishes us not to', generally seeing one or the other.
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I have to ask the Douglas Adams/George Orwell question here, mate.

Why, if you think like that, do you need to bring fairies into it? Can't you accept the wisdom of Jesus' teaching without needing him to be a god?
Mr Clingford said:
God created this universe, is very proud of it and loves his creation. People are amazing things, but to be able to love, to give out, is also to be able to hate, to be selfish. We get things wrong and screw things up. God as Jesus overcomes all this 'going wrongness', the process starting, but not finishing, with Jesus's life and death and life. Something like that. I will expand on my vague take on the Atonement if you like, but it does not involve the death of Jesus acting as a sacrifice to appease an angry God, an orthodox position within Christianity. It is more Fundamentalist type Christians who go on about that approach - it appears to work for them but not for a lot of Christians who see things differently.
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I'm only going to take issue with the first sentence of that.

If your god loves us all so much, why does he let sinless children starve to death so agonisingly? Not a lot to be too proud of, in my book.
 
Tricky said:
Nevertheless, it is still stated directly that it is GOD doing the sacrificing. Is he sacrificing to himself? And what exactly is he giving up? His son, is with him all the time, either on earth or in heaven, so that isn't a sacrifice. All he has done is deprive humans of Jesus's wisdom. So really, it is the humans doing the sacrificing, even if not by choice. Is this just another way of God making people suffer?
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That's bloody excellent!

And nominated.
 
Tricky said:
Nevertheless, it is still stated directly that it is GOD doing the sacrificing. Is he sacrificing to himself? And what exactly is he giving up? His son, is with him all the time, either on earth or in heaven, so that isn't a sacrifice. All he has done is deprive humans of Jesus's wisdom. So really, it is the humans doing the sacrificing, even if not by choice. Is this just another way of God making people suffer?
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If I can find what I first posted on this, I'll link it. It's a few months ago.
Based on Triune model.

DR
 
Tricky said:
Nevertheless, it is still stated directly that it is GOD doing the sacrificing. Is he sacrificing to himself? And what exactly is he giving up? His son, is with him all the time, either on earth or in heaven, so that isn't a sacrifice. All he has done is deprive humans of Jesus's wisdom. So really, it is the humans doing the sacrificing, even if not by choice. Is this just another way of God making people suffer?
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You are crazy if you think God the Father wanted to turn away from Christ while he died on that cross. Jesus had never been out of the Father's sight until the cross. Because Jesus bore our sins, God turned away til He rose Him back to life.

Why did God do it? Why did Jesus do it?? Because of love! I think people would be a lot smarter to not take God's grace or love for granted!
 
kurious_kathy said:
You are crazy if you think God the Father wanted to turn away from Christ while he died on that cross. Jesus had never been out of the Father's sight until the cross. Because Jesus bore our sins, God turned away til He rose Him back to life.
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God turned away from Jesus on the cross? That's an interpretation I hadn't heard of.

kurious_kathy said:
Why did God do it? Why did Jesus do it?? Because of love! I think people would be a lot smarter to not take God's grace or love for granted!
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If God is all powerful, he could have done it at any time without any sacrifice whatsoever on anyone's part.

But most of us here do not take God's love for granted. We don't take it at all. We don't believe in God. That's what "atheist" means, don't you know?
 
Tricky said:
Nevertheless, it is still stated directly that it is GOD doing the sacrificing. Is he sacrificing to himself? And what exactly is he giving up? His son, is with him all the time, either on earth or in heaven, so that isn't a sacrifice. All he has done is deprive humans of Jesus's wisdom. So really, it is the humans doing the sacrificing, even if not by choice. Is this just another way of God making people suffer?
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Finally figured out where I posted the below thought. Sorry it took a while to get back to you. It's seems to me more along the lines of "You want to see sacrifice? I'll show you sacrifice." This from a thread some months old.

God cloaks himself in mortal flesh (we are talking the Christian triune God here) and lives life from birth to adulthood, which is good so far. Carpentry is creative work, he's in the right business. He (in the fleshy cloak) feels called to become a Rabbi, a man of religion. (Whoa, who would have seen that one coming? :jaw-dropp ) No leadership, no teaching, is more powerful than by example. So, He provides a difficult example to match. He (in his human manifestation) gives it all up -- everything neat and woderful that it is to be alive -- in the prime of his life for everyone else's benifit.

That's the theme.

*pop music plays in the background*
I'd do every thing for you!

The hard part to explain, or illustrate, is how the manifestation in the flesh is sufficiently decoupled from "all that is God" to make the human experience genuine, and thus credible. I am not good making an anology or mechanism for that. Some day I might come up with one, sorry. ETA: A deliberately split personality?

If the human experience (Jeshuah Ben Joseph) isn't in some way decoupled temporarily from the entirety of God, then you can certainly call the Sacrifice a bit of a show, since He knows he's just sloughing off (at the God level) the mortal coil like the skin off of a snake.

Anyway, given that theme, who can give anymore than that? That's doing unto, and for others, not to others, with everything you've got (in the human aspect).

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
Finally figured out where I posted the below thought. Sorry it took a while to get back to you. It's seems to me more along the lines of "You want to see sacrifice? I'll show you sacrifice." This from a thread some months old.
<snip>
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Thanks Darth.

Yes, that makes sense, but it only makes sense if what you call the "decoupling" occurs. And to really make it a sacrifice, Jesus must not be certain that he will be resurrected. Of course, the God part of the Triune is not suffering or sacrificing at all, except perhaps a few empathy pains with his decoupled son. But He knows everything will be fine in three days.

Now if Jesus was merely human, then it is a tremendous self-sacrifice for others, although hardly unique in the history of the world. Any number of POWs who were tortured but wouldn't talk so they could protect their comrades would have suffered worse. So if Jesus was a mere human, as I believe he was, then I respect the heck out of him for what he did. As a part of some supernatural triune though, I see his "sacrifice" as no big deal. He died for the weekend. Ho hum. I've had longer hangovers.
 
Tricky said:
Now if Jesus was merely human, then it is a tremendous self-sacrifice for others, although hardly unique in the history of the world. Any number of POWs who were tortured but wouldn't talk so they could protect their comrades would have suffered worse.
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I have said this many times before.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Tricky said:
Originally Posted by kurious_kathy
You are crazy if you think God the Father wanted to turn away from Christ while he died on that cross. Jesus had never been out of the Father's sight until the cross. Because Jesus bore our sins, God turned away til He rose Him back to life.
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God turned away from Jesus on the cross? That's an interpretation I hadn't heard of.
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Obviously, there is much you aren't aware of:

And about three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
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The "dark night of the soul". Even Christ endured it.
 
You know of 6 degrees of separation and how things get around, I should have copyrighted many things that I have said years ago, and this is no joke. I know that many people will think the same thing, but he would jumps on it first wins.

Paul

:) :) :)

Many times my wife will hear something on TV or the Radio and just give me a look and say "You said that years ago".
 
Bible, written only by men, no women, not the word of any so-called god.

Jesus, just a man.

No god.

Get over it.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Tricky said:
Originally Posted by Huntster
Obviously, there is much you aren't aware of:

The "dark night of the soul". Even Christ endured it.
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It could just as easily mean Christ wondered if God had forsaken him.
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Christ didn't cry out "My God, have you forsaken me?"

He cried out "Why have you forsaken me?"
 
Huntster said:
Obviously, there is much you aren't aware of:



The "dark night of the soul". Even Christ endured it.
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Luke 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
= much else takes place=
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
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I have heard two answers to what "he cried in a loud voice." One was that it was the appeal for forgiveness, and the other is that it was Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani after which he made the "into your hands" utterance, his final words.

What's your take on that?

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
I have heard two answers to what "he cried in a loud voice." One was that it was the appeal for forgiveness, and the other is that it was Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani after which he made the "into your hands" utterance, his final words.

What's your take on that?
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Mark and Matthew cite the "Eloi, Eloi...." cry. Luke cites the cry when Jesus commends his spirit.

John credits Christ with "Behold thy mother.....", "I thirst", and "It is finished."

I discount none of it.

The "Eloi, Eloi...." cry has a personal affect for me. I've undergone the "dark night of the soul", as have so many others. For me it was particularly troubling and disturbing. I can very much imagine the emptiness Christ must have felt at that moment, as one who was so filled with God's grace to be left there, dying on a cross, abandoned.

But that also magnifies the glory of His willing sacrifice.
 
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