WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

[Horatius]

Here's a good example of his ignoring people costing him. He's completely forgotten that I linked to a patent for a device that might be able to cut sideways using thermite.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2178283#post2178283

The materials used are as follows:

Referring again to FIGS. 1 through 3, the housing 2 of the apparatus 1 for cutting material is preferably composed of a material selected from the group consisting of high density graphite and phenolic composites. The housing 2 may be composed of any suitable material adapted to withstand generation of a thermite-based cutting flame. It will be appreciated that the housing 2 has relatively high flexural and tensile strengths which are also consistent with relatively low thermal conductivity. A housing 2 composed of mineral phenolic is preferable given its performance characteristics in the practice of the present invention. Other suitable materials which may be used to construct the housing may include, for example, graphite, polymer composite materials, and glass-filled PEEK (polyetheretherketone). Graphite, for example, generally provides a preferable degree of erosion resistance and has relatively low flexural strength and relatively high thermal conductivity.

And the sizes of the devices scale according to the size of the target being cut:

It will be appreciated that the dimensions of the cutting apparatus may be modified within the scope of the present invention to cut various sizes and shapes of target materials. Preferably, the cutting apparatus of the present invention may be employed, for example, to cut steel bars of up to one inch in diameter. It is believed that the diameter of a bar which can be successfully cut by the present invention is proportional to the diameter of the thermite charge employed in the cutting apparatus of the present invention. The charge diameter may range from about 0.25 to 12 inches

Once again, completely ignoring any suggestion as to the sort of evidence we would expect to find if his pet theory was correct. Typical.

Try to get him to show us any evidence of the hundreds to thousands of these (fairly robust, I would expect) devices that would have to have been there to have cut the columns.

 

[The Almond]

Of course you realize that if you put people on ignore, they can talk about you behind your back.

I rather like being on ignore. It allows me to make substantive criticisms of his arguments without the bother of having him respond to them. I win both ways!

 

[28th Kingdom]

1) Conjecture is not evidence
2) Why were none of these hypothetical devices found in the debris?

What does NIST have but conjecture? They couldn't even reproduce any truss failures or floor collapses in their experiments...so they decided to use computer simulated exercises, that could give them any answer they wanted. NIST's report is built off of zero scientific evidence or findings. They drew conclusions and conjectures that went against everything they were seeing, including the max temp of the steel on the impact floors. Nothing was adding up for them, so they just started using virtual tools and simulations...to try and prove the collapse was possible.

I gave you one idea of how it's possible to remotely cut vertical steel beams with a therma/ite reaction. But, of course, I knew you would ask why they weren't found...this is just part of the never-ending series of questions.

I said that if I gave you a device that could cut the vertical columns, that you would still have an innumerable amount of questions that you demand I answer. Skeptics like to tear things apart (over analyze) until there is nothing left...and then they say, "See, there is nothing there. No evidence." Yea, I know...because you just kept breaking it down until there was literally...nothing left.

 

[beachnut]

I don't know why all of you find it so hard to believe that therma/ite can cut a vertical column, considering the fact that NIST even says therma/ite can cut through large steel columns. You have to realize that the US government has access to technologies that are 20-30 years ahead of what the public knows about, so is it really that hard to believe they could make a therma/ite device that can cut through a vertical steel column?

You know the best I can do is try and give you an idea of what this therma/ite torch-like device might look like. And, if that's the case, than here is one type of such device that I think could be used to cut through vertical steel columns using a therma/ite reaction.

Imagine...if you will, a device that looks similar to a c-clamp, like this:

http://shop.com.edgesuite.net/ccimg.shop.com/200000/207900/207937/products/alt_20171858.jpg

I'm sure there are clamps that have the body on all four sides (which is what is needed for this torch-device) but I'm not that familiar with construction tools, so this will have to work as a visual for now.

Okay, now picture the body of this clamp hollowed out, so that you can fill it with therma/ite powder. On the inside of the body of this clamp (the part that will be touching the face of the steel columns -on all four sides- once the clamp is attached) you would create some kind of slit/nozzle that would concentrate the therma/ite reaction (once ignited) into a thin blade-like shape which would generate an enormous amount of psi. This slit/nozzle would be covered with a clear film of plastic or tape, so that the therma/ite powder wouldn't fall out before the reaction.

This clamp device can then be secured to the vertical steel column, with the slit/nozzle pressed air tight against the face of the steel column on all four sides. This clamp device would have a detonator built inside of it, that can be remotely cued. (It only takes a spark to set off a therma/ite reaction) Once the therma/ite reaction has been detonated, the therma/ite would shoot out of the thin blade-like nozzle and through the steel on each side of the column. All four sides would be cut at once.

Is that good enough for you?

How many were used? Who did it?

The clamp would be eaten up by the thermite, melted in place, thermite goes all over!

 

[28th Kingdom]

Just so everyone knows, these are the people on my ignore list:

beachnut, dog town, horatius, jamrat, tbone, stateofgrace, kookbreaker, architect

I can see everyone else. But, these people (on my ignore list) really shouldn't direct anything at me, because you're only making it more difficult for those who actually want to discuss this topic, to follow the conversation.

 

[babazaroni]

In fact, I'd argue that the core column were taking more than twice their design load at this point, as the perimeter columns above the failure point shared 50% of the floor loads, but supported essentially 100% of their own weight. Now, the 50% floor load is transferred to the core, but so is the 100% perimiter column weight.

I agree. I made this point as well.

With this in mind, the static load probably tripled. Add to that the dynamics of the situation, and the ungainly mass in comparison to the cross section of the asymetrically damaged core.

Furthermore, the undamaged lower section is going to hold the core steady. Sounds good right? However, this means that the damaged section is now going to have to make most of the adjustments.

 

[beachnut]

What does NIST have but conjecture? They couldn't even reproduce any truss failures or floor collapses in their experiments...so they decided to use computer simulated exercises, that could give them any answer they wanted. NIST's report is built off of zero scientific evidence or findings. They should drew conclusions that went against everything they were seeing, including the max temp of the steel on the impact floors. Nothing was adding up for them, so they just started using virtual tools and simulations...to try and prove the collapse was possible.

I gave you one idea of how it's possible to remotely cut vertical steel beams with a therma/ite reaction. But, of course, I knew you would ask why they weren't found...this is just part of the never-ending series of questions.

I said that if I gave you a device that could cut the vertical columns, that you would still have an innumerable amount of questions that you demand I answer. Skeptics like to tear things apart (over analyze) until there is nothing left...and then they say, "See, there is nothing there. No evidence." Yea, I know...because you just kept breaking it down until there was literally...nothing left.

You need to read NIST before you make up doublethink dribble about it.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What does NIST have but conjecture? They couldn't even reproduce any truss failures or floor collapses in their experiments...so they decided to use computer simulated exercises, that could give them any answer they wanted. NIST's report is built off of zero scientific evidence or findings. They should drew conclusions that went against everything they were seeing, including the max temp of the steel on the impact floors. Nothing was adding up for them, so they just started using virtual tools and simulations...to try and prove the collapse was possible.

I gave you one idea of how it's possible to remotely cut vertical steel beams with a therma/ite reaction. But, of course, I knew you would ask why they weren't found...this is just part of the never-ending series of questions.

I said that if I gave you a device that could cut the vertical columns, that you would still have an innumerable amount of questions that you demand I answer. Skeptics like to tear things apart (over analyze) until there is nothing left...and then they say, "See, there is nothing there. No evidence." Yea, I know...because you just kept breaking it down until there was literally...nothing left.

You did not give me "a device", you gave me a hypothetical device that may, or may not, even work. Don't try to change the topic. We are discussing thermite/thermate and your claims of a delivery mechanism.

You also try to dodge the logistics if such a device were employed in such an operation. If a device was used then there should be forensic evidence of the device, and of its use. Where is the evidence? What would the evidence be?

Your entire post is a poor attempt at post hoc rationalisation, and it isn't going to fly around here.

We aren't interested in Tom Clancy "what if" scenarios; we are interested in OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.

 

[Timble]

Just so everyone knows, these are the people on my ignore list:

beachnut, dog town, horatius, jamrat, tbone, stateofgrace, kookbreaker, architect

I can see everyone else. But, these people (on my ignore list) really shouldn't direct anything at me, because you're only making it more difficult for those who actually want to discuss this topic, to follow the conversation.

Why? They're slicing your fantasies to pieces and everyone's laughing at you...maybe.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Just so everyone knows, these are the people on my ignore list:

beachnut, dog town, horatius, jamrat, tbone, stateofgrace, kookbreaker, architect

I can see everyone else. But, these people (on my ignore list) really shouldn't direct anything at me, because you're only making it more difficult for those who actually want to discuss this topic, to follow the conversation.

Drop the drama queen act. No one gives a flying rat's ass.

 

[beachnut]

Just so everyone knows, these are the people on my ignore list:

beachnut, dog town, horatius, jamrat, tbone, stateofgrace, kookbreaker, architect

I can see everyone else. But, these people (on my ignore list) really shouldn't direct anything at me, because you're only making it more difficult for those who actually want to discuss this topic, to follow the conversation.

Just so you still know. Your device will not work but there is a patent for a device that cuts with thermite in the horizontal, but you have not found it.

So how can you see if you change our core column temperature and failure ideas.

Good luck reading NIST, I think NIST is on your ignore list.

 

[28th Kingdom]

What happened yall? Aw, did I actually do something to upset you? Aw, am I making too much sense? Aw, did I just prove how unbelievably simple it would be to use a device to cut through a vertical steel column?

OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

You think NIST has given that to you? Honestly, just answer that. You think NIST has given this to you? Even though everything in the NIST report contradicts itself...and has no basis in science.

Besides, I'm not mad at any of you...so why are you mad at me for answering your questions? Am I making you question your own beliefs? Is that a scary thing for you? Is this anger directed at me masked fear?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What happened yall? Aw, did I actually do something to upset you? Aw, am I making too much sense? Aw, did I just prove how unbelievably simple it would be to use a device to cut through a vertical steel column?

OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

You think NIST has given that to you? Honestly, just answer that. You think NIST has given this to you? Even though everything in the NIST report contradicts itself...and has no basis in science.

Besides, I'm not mad at any of you...so why are you mad at me for answering your questions? Am I making you question your own beliefs? Is that a scary thing for you? Is this anger directed at me masked fear?

Stop trying to change the subject away from your claims of thermite. Deal with those, then we'll move on to NIST.

 

[The Almond]

OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

You think NIST has given that to you? Honestly, just answer that. You think NIST has given this to you? Even though everything in the NIST report contradicts itself...and has no basis in science.

Yes, and blanket statements like the NIST report has "no basis in science" do nothing but destroy your credibility.

For the fifth time, if you've got something to prove scientifically, or you have scientific evidence, I highly suggest that you do what responsible, ethical researchers do: Publish in a reputable scientific journal. If you want to scientifically prove something, this is the only way to do it.

Besides, I'm not mad at any of you...so why are you mad at me for answering your questions? Am I making you question your own beliefs? Is that a scary thing for you? Is this anger directed at me masked fear?

This is rhetoric, not evidence.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Okay, Arkan, let's continue to discuss therma/ite. We've seen the video of yellow-orange molten material pouring from WTC 2. NIST even addresses this. They say it's silvery molten aluminum mixed with burned organic material like computers, carpet, furniture. Is this what you believe?

Because, we all know the fires on the impact floors weren't hot enough to melt the steel from the towers, so without therma/ite or a similar substance, you can't get glowing yellow-orange molten metal/steel. So what is your take on this? Is it more likely that silvery molten aluminum mixed with black burned materials creates a glowing yellow-orange molten material....than to believe that a simple therma/ite reaction was set off by the fires on the impact floors? Really, who is grasping at straws here? Some of you even said it might be a naturally occurring therma/ite reaction. HAHAHAHAHAHA OMG!

 

[Firestone]

Aw, am I making too much sense?

No.

Aw, did I just prove how unbelievably simple it would be to use a device to cut through a vertical steel column?

No.

OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

No, no, no and no.

You think NIST has given that to you?

Yes.

Honestly, just answer that. You think NIST has given this to you?

Yes.

Even though everything in the NIST report contradicts itself...and has no basis in science.

Wrong.

Besides, I'm not mad at any of you...so why are you mad at me for answering your questions?

You didn't answer any question.

Am I making you question your own beliefs?

What beliefs?

Is that a scary thing for you? Is this anger directed at me masked fear?

No.

 

[beachnut]

What happened yall? Aw, did I actually do something to upset you? Aw, am I making too much sense? Aw, did I just prove how unbelievably simple it would be to use a device to cut through a vertical steel column?

OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

You think NIST has given that to you? Honestly, just answer that. You think NIST has given this to you? Even though everything in the NIST report contradicts itself...and has no basis in science.

Besides, I'm not mad at any of you...so why are you mad at me for answering your questions? Am I making you question your own beliefs? Is that a scary thing for you? Is this anger directed at me masked fear?

You gave us a c-clamp, you have never even used a c-clamp.

You have not read NIST.

Plus you have everyone on ignore, and so they have you on ignore.

When you place people on ignore; when you rant about junk and make up lies, you are placed on ignore the old fashion way...

The new ignore list is for dummies;

Some people actually just ignore us when we are not saying anything as I am now, and as you do all the time.

Since you can not see this 28th; you have come to the end of your CT time, you have lost the edge you never had, you have run out of stuff, your final shot please.

 

[babazaroni]

I don't know why all of you find it so hard to believe that therma/ite can cut a vertical column, considering the fact that NIST even says therma/ite can cut through large steel columns. You have to realize that the US government has access to technologies that are 20-30 years ahead of what the public knows about, so is it really that hard to believe they could make a therma/ite device that can cut through a vertical steel column?

Some would even say Alien Technology.

Okay, now picture the body of this clamp hollowed out, so that you can fill it with therma/ite powder. On the inside of the body of this clamp (the part that will be touching the face of the steel columns -on all four sides- once the clamp is attached) you would create some kind of slit/nozzle that would concentrate the therma/ite reaction (once ignited) into a thin blade-like shape which would generate an enormous amount of psi. This slit/nozzle would be covered with a clear film of plastic or tape, so that the therma/ite powder wouldn't fall out before the reaction.

A torch would have to be held away from the steel. This makes concealment difficult.

Remember, thermite reactions generate 4500+ degrees F. This device has to be made completely out of a material that can survive these temps since the device is confined/concealed.

The amount of thermite required is considerable. This device would be large. Again, problems with concealement.

Since you claim the core alone can support the upper part alone, then conversely, the perimeter as well can support the upper part alone. This requires that you cut a significant number of perimeter columns as well.

We only saw one possible location of this activity on the South tower, none on the North tower.

Is that good enough for you?

No, but at least you are talking about the important issues now.

 

[Horatius]

I agree. I made this point as well.

With this in mind, the static load probably tripled. Add to that the dynamics of the situation, and the ungainly mass in comparison to the cross section of the asymetrically damaged core.

Furthermore, the undamaged lower section is going to hold the core steady. Sounds good right? However, this means that the damaged section is now going to have to make most of the adjustments.

I knew I had seen it somewhere else, but I didn't think it had been highlighted enough - give him any reason to miss something, and he'll take it.

With these guys, you really do have to spell it all out in simple words. They just can't seem to have a normal conversation, as you'd expect from adults.

It's the same problem with the wind loading - he always says the load is completely vertical, ignoring the fact that any wind load on the upper portion is now controlled only by the core, which wasn't designed for it. Add in the asymetrical damage to the core, and it would be surprizing it it didn't tilt over!

 

[Horatius]

I gave you one idea of how it's possible to remotely cut vertical steel beams with a therma/ite reaction. But, of course, I knew you would ask why they weren't found...this is just part of the never-ending series of questions.

Yes, god forbid we should find some actual evidence to support his hypothesis! He wouldn't know what to do with it!