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WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

28th Kingdom said:
Spin,

NIST even admits therma/ite can cut large steel columns.

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns ..."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

That's without the aid of a therma/ite type torch, which could probably cut through the core columns like butter. The Stealth Bomber - and people think this therma/ite torch is the 9th wonder of the world.
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28th you can not use NIST; they are doublethink, nice try
 
You know, I take great comfort from the fact that tumshie 28 has us all on ignore.......some for pointing out the logical falacies in his arguments, some for having the temerity to post technical papers he doesn't understand, and some for pure taking the mickey.

What he doesn't seem to twig is that everyone except him can still see the posts, and therefore is fully aware of just how much of a tinfoil hat man he really is!
 
28th Kingdom said:
Because that's just non-sense. There is no twice the load. I know NIST says it, but you don't even understand what they're talking about. Twice the load of what? Twice the load of 25 floors compared against 75+ undamaged floors?
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And even with all us mickey-takers on ignore, he's still posting nonsense.

In fact, I'd argue that the core column were taking more than twice their design load at this point, as the perimeter columns above the failure point shared 50% of the floor loads, but supported essentially 100% of their own weight. Now, the 50% floor load is transferred to the core, but so is the 100% perimiter column weight.

Unless I've seriously misunderstood something, which unlike 28th Cromedome, I'm willing to admit as a possiblity.

Feel free to quote this without my name on it, just to avoid his ignore button. No reason we have to play by his rules, is there?
 
28th Kingdom. You are keen on quoting NIST as evidence for your conspiracy. You clearly rate their exertise, as you should.

So what do you think of their statement:

"Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower."

Do you accept NIST evidence or not? If not, why quote them?
 
28th Kingdom said:
Different on each tower...I like to discuss WTC 2, which had 25 floors above the impact zone, I believe
...
Not sure what you're asking here. How tall is the impact zone?
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"United Airlines Flight 175 struck the south face of WTC 2 approximately between the 78th and 84th
floors." http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf section 2.2.2.1

ETA:
2.2.1.1
American Airlines Flight 11 struck the north face of WTC 1 approximately between the 94th and
98th floors
2.2.1.5
Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4x10^11 joules of potential energy over the
1,368-foot height of the structure. Of this, approximately 8x10^9 joules of potential energy were stored in the
upper part of the structure, above the impact floors, relative to the lowest point of impact.

For WTC 1, the top 12 floors of the tower translates into 8x10^9 joules of the total 4x10^11 joules. So, the top ~10.9% of WTC 1 contained ~2% of the entire PE of WTC 1. Extrapolating this on to WTC 2 (since the above mentioned report does not specify the amount PE contained above the WTC 2 impact point) we get the following:
WTC 2 => top 26 floors => ~23.6% of WTC 2.
If ~10.9% of WTC 1 translates into 8x10^9 joules PE
Then ~23.6% of WTC 2 translates into N joules PE
Therefore 10.9/8*10^9 = 23.6/N
=> 10.9*N/8*10^9 = 23.6
=> 10.9*N = 23.6*(8*10^9)
=> N = 23.6*(8*10^9)/10.9
=> N = 17321100917.431192660550458715596
=> N = 17.3*10^9 joules PE
=> ~34.7% of the entire PE of WTC 2
 
28th Kingdom said:
If you quote an ignored member to try and get my attention, you will be added to the ignore button as well. That's aiding and abetting...
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LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

How mature! How predictable!

Hey, can I get put on ignore too? I quit saying anything that I'd know you would respond to, just want to know that I can say whatever I want about you without you knowing about it.
 
28th Kingdom said:
Actually, no I don't believe that...I believe therma/ite and explosives were used...
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And basing your conclusions on a belief is not a problem to you ?

I'm only working off of the sagging trusses, bowing outer columns premise in order to illustrate how this theory is inherently flawed...and incapable of explaining the collapse of the core columns.
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How do you explain the sagging, then ?

Not sure what you're asking here. How tall is the impact zone? Look at that .pdf from NIST. More than 80% of the impact floors' outer columns were intact, as well as 37 of the core columns on WTC 2.
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By "intact" you mean "not damaged at all" ?

NIST even admits therma/ite can cut large steel columns.

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns ..."
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Vertically ? I'd like to see that.

The Stealth Bomber - and people think this therma/ite torch is the 9th wonder of the world.
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What about the bomber ?

You can't keep a secret forever, can you ?

The core columns after the outer columns failed? Light Load.
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Compared to what ? A mountain ?
 
I don't know why all of you find it so hard to believe that therma/ite can cut a vertical column, considering the fact that NIST even says therma/ite can cut through large steel columns. You have to realize that the US government has access to technologies that are 20-30 years ahead of what the public knows about, so is it really that hard to believe they could make a therma/ite device that can cut through a vertical steel column?

You know the best I can do is try and give you an idea of what this therma/ite torch-like device might look like. And, if that's the case, than here is one type of such device that I think could be used to cut through vertical steel columns using a therma/ite reaction.

Imagine...if you will, a device that looks similar to a c-clamp, like this:

http://shop.com.edgesuite.net/ccimg.shop.com/200000/207900/207937/products/alt_20171858.jpg

I'm sure there are clamps that have the body on all four sides (which is what is needed for this torch-device) but I'm not that familiar with construction tools, so this will have to work as a visual for now.

Okay, now picture the body of this clamp hollowed out, so that you can fill it with therma/ite powder. On the inside of the body of this clamp (the part that will be touching the face of the steel columns -on all four sides- once the clamp is attached) you would create some kind of slit/nozzle that would concentrate the therma/ite reaction (once ignited) into a thin blade-like shape which would generate an enormous amount of psi. This slit/nozzle would be covered with a clear film of plastic or tape, so that the therma/ite powder wouldn't fall out before the reaction.

This clamp device can then be secured to the vertical steel column, with the slit/nozzle pressed air tight against the face of the steel column on all four sides. This clamp device would have a detonator built inside of it, that can be remotely cued. (It only takes a spark to set off a therma/ite reaction) Once the therma/ite reaction has been detonated, the therma/ite would shoot out of the thin blade-like nozzle and through the steel on each side of the column. All four sides would be cut at once.

Is that good enough for you?
 
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A C clamp, are you being serious ?

A C clamp that is hollowed out and filled with thermite?

So what stops the C clamp burning away? It is made of metal, it would burn away and drop off.
 
28th Kingdom said:
I don't know why all of you find it so hard to believe that therma/ite can cut a vertical column, considering the fact that NIST even says therma/ite can cut through large steel columns. You have to realize that the US government has access to technologies that are 20-30 years ahead of what the public knows about, so is it really that hard to believe they could make therma/ite device that can cut through a vertical steel column?

You know the best I can do is try and give you an idea of what this therma/ite torch-like device might look like. And, if that's the case, than here is one type of such device that I think could be used to cut through vertical steel columns using a therma/ite reaction.

Imagine...if you will, a device that looks similar to a c-clamp, like this:

http://shop.com.edgesuite.net/ccimg.shop.com/200000/207900/207937/products/alt_20171858.jpg

I'm sure there are clamps that have the body on all four sides (which is what is needed for this torch-device) but I'm not that familiar with construction tools, so this will have to work as a visual for now.

Okay, now picture the body of this clamp hollowed out, so that you can fill it with therma/ite powder. On the inside of the body of this clamp (the part that will be touching the face of the steel columns -on all four sides- once the clamp is attached) you would create some kind of slit/nozzle that would concentrate the therma/ite reaction (once ignited) into a thin blade-like shape which would generate an enormous amount of psi. This slit/nozzle would be covered with a clear film of plastic or tape, so that the therma/ite powder wouldn't fall out before the reaction.

This clamp device is then secured to the vertical steel column, with the slit/nozzle pressed air tight against the face of the steel column on all four sides. This clamp device would have a detonator built inside of it, that could be remotely cued. (It only takes a spark to set off a therma/ite reaction) Once the therma/ite reaction has been detonated, the therma/ite would shoot out of the thin blade-like nozzle and through the steel on each side of the column. All four sides would be cut at once.

Is that good enough for you?
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1) Conjecture is not evidence
2) Why were none of these hypothetical devices found in the debris?
 
Of course you realize that if you put people on ignore, they can talk about you behind your back.
 
28th Kingdom said:
I don't know why all of you find it so hard to believe that therma/ite can cut a vertical column, considering the fact that NIST even says therma/ite can cut through large steel columns. You
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LIAR, selective quoting. You know from the NIST report that you couldn't use thermite. because thousands of pounds, would have been needed to heat the steel, impossible to conceal and your fantasy device would be even more difficult.

At: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building.
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BTW everyone you've got on ignore is saying you're an idiot...maybe, but you wouldn't know if that were true.
 
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