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Mormonism Shock

Beady said:
There is also a world of difference between impossible and unprecedented, yet you seem to use them interchangeably.
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No, just pointing out that if someone is credulous enough to believe one thing then perhaps they will be credulous enough believe in another more plausible thing though still very unlikely.

Let me ask you a question beady, if I had some swamp land would you purchase it at a premium the way the original victims did, sight unseen?

As for virgin births, they are no longer impossible or unprecedented.
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At the time of the supposed miracle there was no such technology. It's not alleged that the holy ghost drove Mary to a clinic where a trained surgeon removed some of Mary's eggs using very specialized equipment and optics and then a technician A.) combined them with sperm from another or B.) cloned them and then a Doctor replaced the eggs.

I stand by my original post.
 
Zygar said:
Yep. I'm also an athiest. Born and raised in a fairly typical Utah Mormon family in the suburbs of Salt Lake City.

And Mormons are like any other religious folk. No amount of evidence will dissolve their faith. I'd say that they have to take the most important step for themselves of thinking for themselves. You can only attempt to guide them towards this step.
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We agree.

Being raised RLDS, there is still this annoying part of me that wants people to understand there are different versions of Mormonism. Lumping everything together is a mistake sort of like lumping Shites and Sufi's together and expecting to make sense of it.
 
RandFan said:
Bill,
  1. It was a scam.
  2. There were no golden plates.
  3. The witnesses either lied or were deluded.
What difference does it make? Like Christianity in general the magical thinking and outrageous claims do not stand up to critical thinking. That is all that matters.
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I think it is an interesting case because it got kicked of fairly recently in History. Unlike Islam that got started so much longer ago and the details are more murky, Mormonism got stated in a time when there was a printing press and interviews were made by people and you can study its beginnings a lot more closely.

A close study of this, I think, might be worthwhile. That is, if it is ethical to free people's minds and give them this sort of information.

I am not sure if it is worth the time if it just leads to people being hurt. What do you think? Is it moral to show someone where their faith fails logic?

If it is an ethical thing to do, than it should be done. You say, "like all Christianity in general" but we are limited and we should pick our "battles".

Also, doing a study might be a good as a model for studying other faiths.

This is why I think it would be good to know the details being these witnesses who saw the plates. It is just being academic. I am not trying to prove anything to myself.

It is too bad the libray is closed on Sunday here.
 
Kopji said:
Originally Posted by Zygar
Yep. I'm also an athiest. Born and raised in a fairly typical Utah Mormon family in the suburbs of Salt Lake City.

And Mormons are like any other religious folk. No amount of evidence will dissolve their faith. I'd say that they have to take the most important step for themselves of thinking for themselves. You can only attempt to guide them towards this step.
We agree.

Being raised RLDS, there is still this annoying part of me that wants people to understand there are different versions of Mormonism. Lumping everything together is a mistake sort of like lumping Shites and Sufi's together and expecting to make sense of it.
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Have you heard of someone moving from Mormonism to another faith? Or do people basically become Athiestic when they leave for the most part?
 
Well, in these parts, you may have a skewed sample size. This site tends to have a disproportionate number fo atheists floating about.
















And isn't is grand?:D
 
Bill Thompson said:
I think it is an interesting case because it got kicked of fairly recently in History. Unlike Islam that got started so much longer ago and the details are more murky, Mormonism got stated in a time when there was a printing press and interviews were made by people and you can study its beginnings a lot more closely.
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True, it might be easier to debunk but not really all that much. Keep in mind that the fact that the stories of a man walking on water are old doesn't make them any less silly though you are correct there are some aspects to Mormonism that make it more easy to assail. Some.

A close study of this, I think, might be worthwhile. That is, if it is ethical to free people's minds and give them this sort of information.
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Just as worthwile as it would be to free the minds of Christians, assuming that is worthwile. I'm not sure why you think Mormonism is significant in this regard. Could you explain?

I am not sure if it is worth the time if it just leads to people being hurt. What do you think? Is it moral to show someone where their faith fails logic?
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Well of course I do. It's why I'm here.

If it is an ethical thing to do, than it should be done. You say, "like all Christianity in general" but we are limited and we should pick our "battles".
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So long as you are intelectually honest then I would agree. If you are a Christian picking a battle against Mormons without focusing the same critical light on your own beliefs then you would be, IMO, intelectually dishonest.

Also, doing a study might be a good as a model for studying other faiths.
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Of course.

This is why I think it would be good to know the details being these witnesses who saw the plates. It is just being academic. I am not trying to prove anything to myself.
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I don't see any use in it but please, have fun.

It is too bad the libray is closed on Sunday here.
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?

Ahh... have you ever heard of a thing called Google? Give it a try. I find it much easier than any library and far more comprehensive.
 
Bill Thompson said:
Have you heard of someone moving from Mormonism to another faith? Or do people basically become Athiestic when they leave for the most part?
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From my perspective most become inactive and believe in god with no particular faith or they join another faith. This is completely anecdotal on my part.
 
Bill Thompson said:
Have you heard of someone moving from Mormonism to another faith? Or do people basically become Athiestic when they leave for the most part?
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Yes I have. Not enough to note any trend though. Ex-Mormons are to be found almost everywhere. That is not to say I think it is ever easy.

Good luck on the history angle, but I think you might be surprised at the difficulty.

RLDS had almost a completely different view of events than LDS, and neither church is real big on believing what anyone else said about church history. (To RLDS, temple records from Salt Lake City were not particularly good evidence.) Add into the basic mistrust a history of fraud over historic documents, and it can be pretty murky.

Mostly, the effort seems a bit naive.
 
Bill Thompson said:
Have you heard of someone moving from Mormonism to another faith? Or do people basically become Athiestic when they leave for the most part?
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My experience with ex-Mormons is anecdotally similar to RandFan's. Most of the people I know who are ex-Mormons do not espouse any particular religion, but are not atheists either.

But my opinion is that becoming an atheist after having previously been religious is not something that just happens. It takes a willingness to accept the truth no matter what, and a lot of work to pursue the truth.

But as for your search for evidence against the Mormons, I think Kopji hit the nail on the head. There was a very strong immediate backlash against Mormons from Protestants. This seems to have created a large list of anti-Mormon literature. Some of it is accurate, and some of it is made up simply to keep people from leaving their churches and becoming Mormons. Many people have spent years trying to sift through the facts and I doubt if anyone will ever know for certain what actually happened back in the early 1800's to create the LDS and RLDS Churches.
 
Hasn't the president of the LDS Church come out and admitted that the BoM is a book originating from the 1840's?
 
Bill Thompson said:
Hasn't the president of the LDS Church come out and admitted that the BoM is a book originating from the 1840's?
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I hadn't heard that. But I would be very surprised. The entire LDS Church relies on believing that Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet and that his story about the plates is true. If any member of the leadership of the church made any such claim, then he would either be immediately replaced, or immediately dissolve the existing LDS Church creating a slew of new faction churches.

Any references?
 
As someone whose beliefs differ greatly from those of the Church of Latter Day Saints I'd like to say that I have always found Mormons unfailingly polite and decent folks. Their young men and women often give up two years of their lives and pay from their own pockets to go and preach their beliefs in foreign countries. I may not agree with their theology, but I do think the surprisingly sympathetic South Park episode (and very accurate as i recall) got it right. Mormons are in my experience very honest about the history of their faith, and seem to retain a sense of humour.

Having said that, the LDS is also amazingly rich, and powerful, as an institution. Still, hard to dislike them in my experience. Their beliefs are salvation are also surprisingly inclusive.

cj x
 
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