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Mormonism Shock

Bill Thompson said:
Maybe I don't understand the nature of some humans.

Have you ever heard of something called The Vinland Map? It was a fake map of the New World supposedly made by Vikings. It has turned out to have been made by a priest who was obcessed with the idea that the Vikings discovered The New World.

It turns out the Vikings did travel to the New World although the map is still a fake.

Anyway, the point is, this priest did this as a kind of exercise. Maybe Smith wrote the book as a kind of exercise and did not intent it to be taken seriously.
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I seriously doubt that for many reasons including the fact that he had tried and failed to make money as a gold digger. This was a great twist. This time he found a sacred gold book that an angel conveniently took to heaven. Smith just got smart and this time his scam worked. He got money, influence and lots of women. Of course it cost him his life but I guess he hadn't expected that.

Do you read Randi's weekly commentary? If not you should. If you do then I honestly don't get what you don't understand. Few if any faith based beliefs be they beliefs in Feng Shui, psychic abilities, communicating with the dead, bending spoons, etc.

Randi has many examples of grown adults who buy rediculous clap trap all of the time. Many are scientists. I realize you might want to make something of Mormons for some reason but they are typical humans I assure you.
 
RandFan said:
I seriously doubt that for many reasons including the fact that he had tried and failed to make money as a gold digger. This was a great twist. This time he found a sacred gold book that an angel conveniently took to heaven. Smith just got smart and this time his scam worked. He got money, influence and lots of women. Of course it cost him his life but I guess he hadn't expected that.

Do you read Randi's weekly commentary? If not you should. If you do then I honestly don't get what you don't understand. Few if any faith based beliefs be they beliefs in Feng Shui, psychic abilities, communicating with the dead, bending spoons, etc.

Randi has many examples of grown adults who buy rediculous clap trap all of the time. Many are scientists. I realize you might want to make something of Mormons for some reason but they are typical humans I assure you.
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I am glad to read your post. Do you think others in Utah have come to this clear-thinking, rational conclusion?

Have you heard what Mark Twain said about the Book of Mormon? I think it is entertaining. I think he mentioned it in "Roughing It"
 
Bill Thompson said:
Maybe you know more about this than I do or maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean. I will start a new thread.
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Hi Bill,
Several of the atheists here were Mormon or have Mormon relatives and friends. A strategy of impugning the character of our believing friends and family is going to invite comparison to other irrational beliefs commonly held to be true.

You don't need a new thread, but if you would free Mormons from their irrational beliefs, free yourself first.
 
Kopji said:
Hi Bill,
Several of the atheists here were Mormon or have Mormon relatives and friends. A strategy of impugning the character of our believing friends and family is going to invite comparison to other irrational beliefs commonly held to be true.

You don't need a new thread, but if you would free Mormons from their irrational beliefs, free yourself first.
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Yep. I'm also an athiest. Born and raised in a fairly typical Utah Mormon family in the suburbs of Salt Lake City.

And Mormons are like any other religious folk. No amount of evidence will dissolve their faith. I'd say that they have to take the most important step for themselves of thinking for themselves. You can only attempt to guide them towards this step.
 
RandFan said:
If you can believe a man lived in a fish (Jonah) then you can believe anything. If you can believe that Mary was a virgin when she had a child then I have some swamp land fto sell you.
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Be careful about your examples. There's a documented case of a whaler being swallowed by (something, I forget what), and being rescued a day or two later when his devourer was captured and cut open. And the last person to get caught in that Florida swampland scam of the 1950s was recently (within the last 12 - 18 months) forced(!) to sell his land back to the state for a few $million.

If it's documentation you want, I can start a new religion with bona-fide miracles, right now.
 
Just an aside: The bit about Joseph Smith putting a "seer stone" in his hat and then covering his face with it and "prophesying"... Would that be where we get the expression for someone talking utter balderdash as "talking through their hat"??

;)
 
Zep said:
Just an aside: The bit about Joseph Smith putting a "seer stone" in his hat and then covering his face with it and "prophesying"... Would that be where we get the expression for someone talking utter balderdash as "talking through their hat"??

;)
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http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/12/messages/1304.html

Lifted from the Word Detective:

" "To talk through one's hat" was apparently a widespread idiom by the late 1880s meaning "to talk nonsense," although it initially seems to have carried the added connotation of "to lie." The precise logic and origins of the phrase are unclear. One theory, perhaps reflecting the earlier "to lie" meaning, maintains that the phrase refers to men in church who hold their hats over their faces while feigning prayer. Another possibility is that the phrase refers to the emptiness of the hat atop one's head, as if one were thinking and speaking with an empty head. It's also possible that "talk through one's hat" is an oblique reference to another phrase, "to talk off the top of one's head," meaning to speak speculatively, without thorough consideration."
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Maybe.
 
Beady said:
Be careful about your examples. There's a documented case of a whaler being swallowed by (something, I forget what), and being rescued a day or two later when his devourer was captured and cut open. And the last person to get caught in that Florida swampland scam of the 1950s was recently (within the last 12 - 18 months) forced(!) to sell his land back to the state for a few $million.

If it's documentation you want, I can start a new religion with bona-fide miracles, right now.
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I remember the story in the news recently but I don't think it was a day or two later. There is an old rumor that is false that you might be thinking of. I could be wrong. You will have to find the story.

As to the second exmaple, it's not that the person actually made money but that he bought into the scam. Hey we could all get lucky on some otherwise scam. Not a good example on your part. It suggests that we shouldn't be cautious when this was just an extraordinary event.
 
Hi, RandFan - as someone who HATES to be told "you can't know anything about that," I am asking you to tell us what DOES go on in the temple.

For real, not being a smart-a**. Or if you won't tell us, would you tell us why not?

Thanks!
 
Beady said:
It's as good an example as the virgin birth. A miracle is a miracle, and an extraordinary event is an extraordinary event.
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Well, one is possible and not unprecedented the other impossible and would be unprecedented. There is a world of difference there.
 
Elizabeth I said:
So does that mean you won't tell us? Suspicious, is it not? :p
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If it wasn't on the internet, didn't have more detail then I could or world provide and not more accurate than my 26+ year memory I would tell you.
 
RandFan,


I am guessing you might know more about this. What is the deal with the Golden Plates in the sense that there were several wittinesses. I had the idea that some recanted. Was it just a trick? Seems like a pretty good trick. Has anyone had any theories about this that are solid?
 
Bill Thompson said:
RandFan,


I am guessing you might know more about this. What is the deal with the Golden Plates in the sense that there were several wittinesses. I had the idea that some recanted. Was it just a trick? Seems like a pretty good trick. Has anyone had any theories about this that are solid?
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Bill,
  1. It was a scam.
  2. There were no golden plates.
  3. The witnesses either lied or were deluded.
What difference does it make? Like Christianity in general the magical thinking and outrageous claims do not stand up to critical thinking. That is all that matters.
 
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