You're not getting a debate on this subject from me, as it's a pointless exercise.

You began the debate by making a claim, we didn't ask for a debate with you on this topic we merely took up your challenge and now it seems you don't care to back it up.

But you started with ad-hominem arguments (go check your dictionary, gumboots) and you never deviated. Debate the evidence, next time Gravy.

He did not start with ad hominem attacks from what I can see right now. Can you just quickly write down what you think he said that was an adhom?

You also looked a little on the bitter side, constantly eyeballing Bermas as if he was some sort of devil incarnate

and the loosers looked like they were wearing their daddys work clothes - See, what we just both did is a decent example of ad-hominems.
 
You did better than Avery, Gravy.

This isn't about Avery. It's about YOUR claims about me. Back them with evidence or withdraw them.

See how being an adult works, IronSnot?

Here I am. Proceed.
 
Only bothered to watch the first half of the first movie. From that it appears that Mark has the facts and the other two do not have many facts to back up their opinions.

I also note that the loose change debate has only about 47 posts. This one is post 283. I think that says a lot about the size of the forums and who is winning (or should that be, has won?).
 
After seeing the debate I get a feeling that dylan/jason are of a different ilk to killtown et al that have roamed these forums in the past - But perhaps it was just television popularist banter... who knows? All I know is alot of their loonier breatherin seem to be upset with their performance in this debate because they didn't use some of the wilder / more easily laughed off claims that many of them use.

I also note that the loose change debate has only about 47 posts. This one is post 283. I think that says a lot about the size of the forums and who is winning (or should that be, has won?).

I wish they'd make accounts and start posting here more often personally. I would create an account to go to their forums, but from what I've heard it's quite easy to get banned - They should have no such fear here.
 
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I havn't done anything different on this thread than anybody else posting here has. I've given an opinion. That I have to back this opinion up, and others don't indicates a bias, and it's a bias I don't share. You should really just allow it. And I also don't have the time for going back to google and writing down every point. But I will leave you with one - I would suggest to you that the term "conspiracy theorist" is, in the context of this debate, close to being ad-hominem. It's also factually incorrect when applied to Bermas and Avery as they are not conspiracy theorists, although Mark Roberts is. (lots of 911rs are though, conspiracy theorists, ie beam weapon advocates)

As for the loose change forum, well I gave up on Version 1 back in June about 2 weeks after I joined. The number of idiots there is a bit of a turn off. The one I disliked the most though, was Chuck, who is almost certainly not an idiot, but does a lot to encourage them. Also shutting the forum down for a week, changing it's address and leaving the old forum to waste away, banning users willy nilly, and allowing the idiots and fascists to post whatever they want to, means that effectively that forum is a waste of time (although there is some reasonable research going on). And I'm not surprised it's got so few posts on the particular thread you're talking of. 43 at the moment is quite a lot of posts for a Loose Change thread. I left a couple of posts there about 5 days ago, and they were still there as the most recent posts on those subject areas when I last checked.
 
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I would suggest to you that the term "conspiracy theorist" is in the context of this debate, close to being ad-hominem. It's also factually incorrect when applied to Bermas and Avery as they are not conspiracy theorists


Are you claiming LTW do not promote a theory in which members of the US Government secretly conspire to carry out the 9/11 attacks?

Because that's certainly what it looks like they promote to me.

-Gumboot
 
unless you assert that one person pulled off the attacks you are a conspiracy theorist

and that term has entered the broader lexicon to refer to a covert scheme that contradicts any official story, gravy didnt make it up and he wont be the last one to use it.
 
Are you claiming LTW do not promote a theory in which members of the US Government secretly conspire to carry out the 9/11 attacks?

Because that's certainly what it looks like they promote to me.

-Gumboot

Maybe he means hypothesis and collude. So that would make LTW Collusion Hypothesists.
 
The most popular conspiracy theory is that 19 radical arabs hijacked the planes in question and crashed them into 3 buildings and one field at the behest of Al Queda's leadership. There are a lot of others too, but that's the main one.

I don't think you'll find that Bermas and Avery will commit other than saying they don't believe the above conspiracy theory. They do point out disrepencies in the official conspiracy theory though.

On the other hand Mark Roberts believes in full the official conspiracy theory.

That's it for me. I'll see you again sometime next year.
 
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The most popular conspiracy theory is that 19 radical arabs hijacked the planes in question and crashed them into 3 buildings and one field at the behest of Al Queda's leadership. There are a lot of others too, but that's the main one.



That's not a conspiracy theory though. It's just a conspiracy.

-Gumboot
 
The most popular conspiracy theory is that 19 radical arabs hijacked the planes in question and crashed them into 3 buildings and one field at the behest of Al Queda's leadership. There are a lot of others too, but that's the main one.

I don't think you'll find that Bermas and Avery will commit other than saying they don't believe the above conspiracy theory. They do point out disrepencies in the official conspiracy theory though.

On the other hand Mark Roberts believes in full the official conspiracy theory.

That's it for me. I'll see you again sometime next year.
troll troll troll troll troll troll troll

Come now people sing along

troll TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL


Oh, and also, you are a despicable human being(if you are that much)
 
I havn't done anything different on this thread than anybody else posting here has. I've given an opinion.

You've made a claim and then refused to back that claim up when questioned on it.

That I have to back this opinion up, and others don't indicates a bias, and it's a bias I don't share.

We're obviously not going to grill everyone to back their assertions up... the only assertions we'll want to see evidenced are ones that run contrary to our own - The only reason being because there's no need to ask for evidence for opinions that are the same as yours, you already have it.

And I also don't have the time for going back to google and writing down every point.

Yet you have the time to make these silly posts? All we'd like is for you to give us ONE example of Mark Roberts making an Ad Hominem attack, that (if there was an example in the video) should take all of a few minutes. The fact that you claim that these attacks began at the beginning of the taping and continued all the way through should mean that it'll only take you roughly a minute to load it up and write down the ad-hom.

But no, you wont, I wonder why?

But I will leave you with one - I would suggest to you that the term "conspiracy theorist" is, in the context of this debate, close to being ad-hominem.

No it's not, it's an accurate description of what they are. Furthermore generally a conspiracy theorist is (after being bastardised a bit) someone who has an alternate theory to the official one, involving a conspiracy etc.

Anyway, I suggest you read the little section at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

While taking the two words (Conspiracy and Theory) literally can lead to the conclusion that any theory about an event involving more than one person planning to do an act is a conspiracy theory, that's not how the term has ever been used - Until the truthers came along :)

I don't think you'll find that Bermas and Avery will commit other than saying they don't believe the above conspiracy theory.

They scream out '9/11 was an inside job', talk about the 'shadow government' and 'new world order' - It's pretty obvious they're advocating a conspiracy theory.
 
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Excellent coherence and deliviry of a "debunktion" (not really a word but what the hey), from Gravy in Part A and B of the debate in question.
 
You're not getting a debate on this subject from me
Funny, same as w/ all CT's who come here. Makes one think that you CT's don't have any valid arguments in support of your CT, don't it?
 
I havn't done anything different on this thread than anybody else posting here has. I've given an opinion. That I have to back this opinion up, and others don't indicates a bias, and it's a bias I don't share. You should really just allow it. And I also don't have the time for going back to google and writing down every point. But I will leave you with one - I would suggest to you that the term "conspiracy theorist" is, in the context of this debate, close to being ad-hominem. It's also factually incorrect when applied to Bermas and Avery as they are not conspiracy theorists, although Mark Roberts is. (lots of 911rs are though, conspiracy theorists, ie beam weapon advocates)

As for the loose change forum, well I gave up on Version 1 back in June about 2 weeks after I joined. The number of idiots there is a bit of a turn off. The one I disliked the most though, was Chuck, who is almost certainly not an idiot, but does a lot to encourage them. Also shutting the forum down for a week, changing it's address and leaving the old forum to waste away, banning users willy nilly, and allowing the idiots and fascists to post whatever they want to, means that effectively that forum is a waste of time (although there is some reasonable research going on). And I'm not surprised it's got so few posts on the particular thread you're talking of. 43 at the moment is quite a lot of posts for a Loose Change thread. I left a couple of posts there about 5 days ago, and they were still there as the most recent posts on those subject areas when I last checked.
Logic and Debate 101: Argumentum ad hominem, or, The Ad-Hom Attack
Argumentum ad hominem
This is a fallacy we studied before but it bears repeating, not least because it's perhaps the most frequently charged and least understood, in spite of its relative simplicity. Consider the following example:
You say that the conservatives' tax plans would leave the health service under-funded, but you're a liberal and would get rid of health care altogether.
Now, whether or not the characterization of the so-called liberal's beliefs is accurate (that question will be asked when we look at another fallacy to come), the point is that it isn't relevant: either the plans really will leave the health service under-funded or they won't (or, perhaps, the situation may be considerably more complex), but the political persuasion of the person making that criticism doesn't impact on the claim itself. That means that the complaint against the liberal is against him or her, not the claim; and that is what the Latin phrase means: an argument against the man (or woman—more accurately, "argument to the person"), rather than an actual counter-argument. In general, there are three kinds of ad hominem:
  • Abusive—the person is attacked instead of their argument
  • Circumstantial—the person's circumstances in making the argument are discussed instead of the argument itself
  • Tu Quoque—the person is said to not practice what he or she preaches
Notice what the ad hominem is not: it doesn't say that the political beliefs of the liberal don't motivate his or her criticism in the first place, or that he or she wouldn't want to remove health care altogether (although it doesn't seem likely), but only that these things are not relevant to the point at issue. For this reason it is usually grouped as one of the fallacies of relevance. It also is not equivalent to an insult, as many people seem to suppose.
Consider now some other examples:
Some politicians claim we should raise taxes, but they are just greedy opportunists trying to gain more of our money to spend on themselves.
This is an ad hominem abusive, since it attacks a (perceived) quality of the claimant(s) instead of the claim itself. It has the form:
P1: A claims B;
P2: A is a C;
C: Therefore, B is false.​
You say we should lower taxes, but you are living beyond your means and so you would be expected to say that.
This is an ad hominem circumstantial, since it brings in the circumstances of the claimant when they are not relevant to the claim at issue (even if they might explain his or her interest). It has the form:
P1: A claims B;
P2: A is in circumstances C;
C: Therefore, B is false.​
You say people should learn to live within their means, but you are in debt yourself and make no effort to get out of it.
This is an ad hominem tu quoque, since it draws to our attention an inconsistency in the argument: if the claim is true, then the claimant should either change his or her ways or admit that the claim doesn't have to apply to everyone after all. It has the form:
P1: A claims B;
P2: A practices not-B;
C: Therefore, B is inconsistent with A's actions.​
Note that this differs from the first two examples in that they are instances of informal fallacies while the third is sometimes an acceptable move to make in any argument. Pointing out an inconsistency in someone's thinking does not show their position to be mistaken but it may show their advocacy of it to be hypocritical. If we change the form slightly, it becomes fallacious:
P1: A claims B;
P2: A practices not-B;
C: Therefore, B is false.​
That someone may be a hypocrite, of course, does not show their ideas to be false. The first form of tu quoque is fine but the latter is fallacious. In summary, then, the ad hominem fallacy brings irrelevancies to a discussion and distracts from the real point at issue.
http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#ad_hominem
Argumentum ad hominem

Argumentum ad hominem literally means "argument directed at the man"; there are two varieties.
The first is the abusive form. If you refuse to accept a statement, and justify your refusal by criticizing the person who made the statement, then you are guilty of abusive argumentum ad hominem. For example:
"You claim that atheists can be moral -- yet I happen to know that you abandoned your wife and children."​
This is a fallacy because the truth of an assertion doesn't depend on the virtues of the person asserting it. A less blatant argumentum ad hominem is to reject a proposition based on the fact that it was also asserted by some other easily criticized person. For example:
"Therefore we should close down the church? Hitler and Stalin would have agreed with you."​
A second form of argumentum ad hominem is to try and persuade someone to accept a statement you make, by referring to that person's particular circumstances. For example:
"Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food. I hope you won't argue otherwise, given that you're quite happy to wear leather shoes."​
This is known as circumstantial argumentum ad hominem. The fallacy can also be used as an excuse to reject a particular conclusion. For example:
"Of course you'd argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing. You're white."​
This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when you allege that someone is rationalizing a conclusion for selfish reasons, is also known as "poisoning the well."
It's not always invalid to refer to the circumstances of an individual who is making a claim. If someone is a known perjurer or liar, that fact will reduce their credibility as a witness. It won't, however, prove that their testimony is false in this case. It also won't alter the soundness of any logical arguments they may make.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#hominem
Description of Ad Hominem


Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:
  1. Person A makes claim X.
  2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
  3. Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made). Example of Ad Hominem

  1. Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
    Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
    Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
    Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."
  1. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
Also Known as: "You Too Fallacy" Description of Ad Hominem Tu Quoque


This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:
  1. Person A makes claim X.
  2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
  3. Therefore X is false.
The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false (although of any pair of inconsistent claims only one can be true - but both can be false). Also, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false. Examples of Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

  1. Bill: "Smoking is very unhealthy and leads to all sorts of problems. So take my advice and never start."
    Jill: "Well, I certainly don't want to get cancer."
    Bill: "I'm going to get a smoke. Want to join me Dave?"
    Jill: "Well, I guess smoking can't be that bad. After all, Bill smokes."
  2. Jill: "I think the gun control bill shouldn't be supported because it won't be effective and will waste money."
    Bill: "Well, just last month you supported the bill. So I guess you're wrong now."
  3. Peter: "Based on the arguments I have presented, it is evident that it is morally wrong to use animals for food or clothing."
    Bill: "But you are wearing a leather jacket and you have a roast beef sandwich in your hand! How can you say that using animals for food and clothing is wrong!"
  1. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
Description of Circumstantial Ad Hominem


A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:
  1. Person A makes claim X.
  2. Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
  3. Therefore claim X is false.
  1. Person A makes claim X.
  2. Person B makes an attack on A's circumstances.
  3. Therefore X is false.
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example: "Bill claims that 1+1=2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false."
There are times when it is prudent to suspicious of a person's claims, such as when it is evident that the claims are being biased by the person's interests. For example, if a tobacco company representative claims that tobacco does not cause cancer, it would be prudent to not simply accept the claim. This is because the person has a motivation to make the claim, whether it is true or not. However, the mere fact that the person has a motivation to make the claim does not make it false. For example, suppose a parent tells her son that sticking a fork in a light socket would be dangerous. Simply because she has a motivation to say this obviously does not make her claim false. Examples of Circumstantial Ad Hominem

  1. "She asserts that we need more military spending, but that is false, since she is only saying it because she is a Republican."
  2. "I think that we should reject what Father Jones has to say about the ethical issues of abortion because he is a Catholic priest. After all, Father Jones is required to hold such views."
  3. "Of course the Senator from Maine opposes a reduction in naval spending. After all, Bath Ironworks, which produces warships, is in Maine."
  4. "Bill claims that tax breaks for corporations increases development. Of course, Bill is the CEO of a corporation."
  1. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html
THE AD HOMINEM ATTACK: The ad hominem simply means attacking the person making the argument, rather than the argument, itself. It is the last resort of Creationists whose arguments have been systematically annihilated. When used by a Creationist, these attacks will often incorporate religious bigotry and are almost always used with an appeal to fear.
EXAMPLE
"You have been blinded by Satan, and you are a creature of the devil. Neither you nor what you say can be trusted. You will rot in Hell for your ways."​
Very simple. Notice the inclusion of the threat of Hell with the ad hominem. As said above, when a Creationist starts spouting crap like this, you know that you've won.
HOW TO SPOT

It is important to note the difference between an ad hominem and an insult. An ad hominem seeks to counter an argument based on the the person making it. An insult simply seeks to belittle someone. Insult can be added to a refutation, however. While impolite, the logic preceding the insult may be entirely true. Here is an example of an insult used with logical refutation:</B>
TYPICAL CREATIONIST MORON (TCM): The Earth is only 6,500 years old.
ME: No, it's billions of years old [cites evidence]. Oh, and by the way, you smell of kitty litter, and your mother was a female dog of poor breeding.​
See the difference? I cited evidence, made an argument, and then insulted the TCM. Of course, I'm not saying that insulting is right, but sometimes you just can't help calling a moron a moron.
HOW TO COUNTER
Inform any observers that your opponent is obviously at a loss to counter your arguments, and happily accept his concession on the point at hand.
http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/creationism/fallacies.shtml
Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person). This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater (e.g, "The members of the opposition are a couple of fascists!"), but this is actually not that common. A more typical manifestation of argumentum ad hominem is attacking a source of information -- for example, responding to a quotation from Richard Nixon on the subject of free trade with China by saying, "We all know Nixon was a liar and a cheat, so why should we believe anything he says?" Argumentum ad hominem also occurs when someone's arguments are discounted merely because they stand to benefit from the policy they advocate -- such as Bill Gates arguing against antitrust, rich people arguing for lower taxes, white people arguing against affirmative action, minorities arguing for affirmative action, etc. In all of these cases, the relevant question is not who makes the argument, but whether the argument is valid. It is always bad form to use the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. But there are some cases when it is not really a fallacy, such as when one needs to evaluate the truth of factual statements (as opposed to lines of argument or statements of value) made by interested parties. If someone has an incentive to lie about something, then it would be naive to accept his statements about that subject without question. It is also possible to restate many ad hominem arguments so as to redirect them toward ideas rather than people, such as by replacing "My opponents are fascists" with "My opponents' arguments are fascist."
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum ad hominem
Ad hominem

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It has been suggested that Personal attack be merged into this article or section. (Discuss)
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally argument against the person), personal attack or you-too argument, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. It is a logical fallacy.
It includes ad hominem abusive (argumentum ad personam), ad hominem circumstantial (ad hominem circumstantiae), ad hominem tu quoque...
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[edit] Ad hominem as logical fallacy

A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form:
  1. Contention: Claim X is false.
  2. Premise: A makes claim X.
  3. Co-premise: There is something objectionable about A.


The first premise is called a 'factual claim' and is the pivot point of much debate. The contention is referred to as an 'inferential claim' and represents the reasoning process. There are two types of inferential claim, explicit and implicit. The fallacy does not represent a valid form of reasoning because even if you accept both co-premises, that does not guarantee the truthfulness of the contention. This can also be thought of as the argument having an un-stated co-premise.



In this fleshed out example, the un-stated co-premise "everything that A claims is false" has been included, and the argument is therefore now a valid one. However in the ad hominem fallacy the un-stated co-premise is always false, thereby maintaining the fallacy. Note that this does not imply that the contention "eugenics is a bad idea" is false, merely un-supported by the pattern of reasoning below it.
Ad hominem is one of the best-known of the logical fallacies usually enumerated in introductory logic and critical thinking textbooks. Both the fallacy itself, and accusations of having committed it, are often brandished in actual discourse (see also Argument from fallacy). As a technique of rhetoric, it is powerful and used often, despite its inherent incorrectness.
In contrast, an argument that instead relies (fallaciously) on the positive aspects of the person arguing the case is known as appeal to authority.

[edit] Usage


[edit] In Logic

An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself. The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority. Merely insulting another person in the middle of otherwise rational discourse does not necessarily constitute an ad hominem fallacy. It must be clear that the purpose of the characterization is to discredit the person offering the argument, and, specifically, to invite others to discount his arguments. In the past,the term ad hominem was sometimes used more literally, to describe an argument that was based on an individual, or to describe any personal attack. However, this is not how the meaning of the term is typically introduced in modern logic and rhetoric textbooks, and logicians and rhetoricians are in agreement that this use is incorrect.
Examples:
"You claim that this man is innocent, but you cannot be trusted since you are a criminal as well." "You feel that abortion should be illegal, but I disagree, because you are uneducated and poor." Not all ad hominem fallacies are insulting:
Example:
"Paula says the umpire made the correct call, but this can't be true, because Paula was doing more important things than watching the game." This is an ad hominem fallacy, even though it is saying something positive about the person, because it is addressing the person and not the topic in dispute.

[edit] Linguistically

In common language, any personal attack, regardless of whether it is part of an argument, is often referred to as ad hominem.[1]

[edit] Subtypes

Three traditionally identified varieties are ad hominem abusive or ad personam, ad hominem circumstantial, and ad hominem tu quoque.

[edit] Ad hominem abusive or ad personam

Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but damning character flaws or actions. The reason that this is fallacious is that — usually, anyway — insults and even damaging facts simply do not undermine what logical support there might be for one's opponent's arguments or assertions; argumentum ad personam short-circuits these potential arguments from logic in favor of a direct attack on the opponent's authority.
Examples:
"You can't believe Jack when he says there is a God because he doesn't even have a job." "Charles Manson wrote this song, so it must be unlistenable".
[edit] Ad hominem circumstantial

Ad hominem circumstantial involves pointing out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Essentially, ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a person. The reason that this is fallacious is that pointing out that one's opponent is disposed to make a certain argument does not make the argument, from a logical point of view, any less credible; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source). Noting the opponent's bias is not necessarily irrational, but neither is it strictly correct according to logic. This illustrates one of the differences between rationality and logic.
Examples:
"Tobacco company representatives are wrong when they say smoking doesn't seriously affect your health, because they're just defending their own multi-million-dollar financial interests." "He's physically addicted to nicotine. Of course he defends smoking!” Of course, such statements could also be reworded to avoid the logical fallacy:
"Tobacco company representatives may be biased when they say smoking doesn't seriously affect your health, because of their own multi-million-dollar financial interests. Thus, such statements may be wishful thinking, or even outright lies, on their part." "He's physically addicted to nicotine. Therefore, his defense of smoking may be biased.” In the following example Jennifer's comment is an ad hominem circumstantial attack against Chris's statement:
Chris: "Women should be able to be topless everywhere men can be." Jennifer: "You're just saying that because you want to see women's breasts." The Mandy Rice-Davies ploy, "Well, he would [say that], wouldn't he?" is a use of this fallacy.

[edit] Ad hominem tu quoque

Main article: tu quoque
Ad hominem tu quoque refers to an irrelevant accusation of hypocrisy. Accusations of hypocrisy are inadmissible in legal and scientific debate, and can be distractions from the business of politics. That is, it is not relevant to the credibility of a didactic argument whether its presenter has trod over the principle he espouses. For example, a corrupt lawyer who prosecutes embezzlers may be a sleaze, but in a properly organized legal system there can be no arguments against his defendant just because of that.

[edit] Guilt by Association

Guilt by Association is a type of ad hominem fallacy that attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.
This form of the argument is as follows:
A's makes claim P. B's also make claim P. Therefore, A is a B. Examples:
"You say the gap between the rich and poor is unacceptable, but communists also say this, therefore you are a communist" "Conservatives are against abortion, but let us not forget that Hitler was also against abortion, therefore conservatives are Hitlers-in-training." (see reductio ad Hitlerum) This fallacy can also take another form:
A's makes claim P. B's make claims P and Q Therefore, A makes claim Q. Examples:
"You say the gap between the rich and poor is unacceptable, but communists also say this, and they believe in revolution. Thus, you are a danger to the State."
[edit] Argumentum Baculum

Argumentum Baculum is a type of ad hominem fallacy that is sustained by the use or threat of physical force against the proponent of an argument rather than the strength of an opposing argument.
Examples:
"I did not believe anarchism was a sustainable political system, but then Bill beat me with a stick until I agreed"
[edit] Taxonomy

The argumentum ad hominem is a genetic fallacy and red herring, and is often (but not necessarily) an appeal to emotion. Argumentum ad hominem includes poisoning the well.
Ad hominem fallacies should not be mistakenly confused with attacks on credibility of persons asserting a fact that he/she claims to have witnessed. Such arguments are often appropriate, and in fact are major part of legal trials, particularly "cross examination". For example under the laws of evidence, which determine what testimony may be heard in court to prove a material fact, a woman testifies: "I saw him fire the gun." Evidence that the witness is prejudiced for/against the defendant, has a poor reputation for honesty, may not have had a good chance to see the event, among other things, may be offered to reduce her credibility--the "weight" given to her testimony.

[edit] See also



Look up ad hominem in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

[edit] External links

 
Logic and Debate 101: Argumentum ad hominem, or, The Ad-Hom Attack...

You forgot at least one. ;) :

Ad Hominem: [Latin = "at the man"]. A type of fallacious argument in which the proposer of an argument is personally belittled, rather than the proposal itself (akin to playing the player rather than the ball on the sports field). The attack may be explicit, as in a direct personal insult [abusive ad hominem], or implicit, as with belittling phrases such as "that's what you'd expect him to say" (Curtis, 2004 online). Often used when attackers have little else of substance to offer to support their case.
http://www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/rational-argument-glossary.html
 
You forgot at least one. ;) :

Ad Hominem: [Latin = "at the man"]. A type of fallacious argument in which the proposer of an argument is personally belittled, rather than the proposal itself (akin to playing the player rather than the ball on the sports field). The attack may be explicit, as in a direct personal insult [abusive ad hominem], or implicit, as with belittling phrases such as "that's what you'd expect him to say" (Curtis, 2004 online). Often used when attackers have little else of substance to offer to support their case.
http://www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/rational-argument-glossary.html

[Mr. Burns]
Another bookmark to add to my collection.
Exxccelllent!
[/Mr. Burns.
 
If you read Dylan's comments, he's much more of a loud mouth on the forum than on Hardfire.
 

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