Some simple Tower 7 questions

[apathoid]

What Alex Jones believes...believe it or not!

There's no need to call Alex Jones a nut.
You just need to list his beliefs!


"There is a 90% chance we are gonna see bone-shattering mega-attacks in the United States, Canada, or England—or Israel...It could be both. In the next couple months...by mid-October....We're talking about the total end of America, total martial law...I am predicting you will have huge terrorist attacks in the Western world by, at the latest, late October.."
--Alex Jones, InfoWars, August 10, 2006

"There is going to be more.
This is only the kick-off."

--Alex Jones, Infowars, Sept. 13, 2001

"Within 2 years I'm predicting...that you're going to see a suitcase nuke in this country. You're probably going to see a release in a few years of something communicable. & I am predicting that you will see a lot of conventional bombings...in the next year or so."
--Alex Jones, Infowars (10/18/01)

"Suitcase nukes are a virtual certainty."
--Alex Jones, Infowars (5/16/02)

They're preparing for new terrorist attacks that are much larger.
& they're planning to bring in foreign armies."
--Alex Jones, Infowars, 7/11/02

"They're really setting us up for a smallpox attack...
It's not a question of if & when it's gonna happen."
--Alex Jones, Infowars, 9/26/02

The following list is of beliefs which Alex Jones has explicitly or implicitly stated on his cable access show--sometimes many times.


Israel microwaved a hundred thousand of its own children.
Your cell phones are watching you every moment.
The main source of meat in North Korea is executed prisoners.
SWAT teams are being taught that Christians are evil.
The government can control the weather. (All conspiracy guys believe this. What's the deal?)
The Mafia was started by Julius Ceaser's grandfather.
"Vaccines are killing our children--mainstream news." (Direct quote from InfoWars 12/27/01. No sources cited.)
SWAT team guys can't satisfy a woman. (InfoWars, 12/27/01. You never know how Alex Jones "knows" anything. Did the SWAT guys open up to Alex...or weas there some study done? Alex didn't say.)
Texas is run by the Masons. (Is that why Texas has the worst schools in the world?)
"Cell phones have been proven in hundreds of major studied to cause brain tumnors. There's no debating it." (Also no references or citations given. Alex says he sources everything, but he sources almost nothing he says. When you can find the source, you always discover that Alex has completely garbled it.)
Drinking fluoridated water causes your IQ to go down 10 points. (No documentation. No reference. No nothing.)
Devil-worshippers run the country. (But only angry white guys with IQ's in the mid-80's can perceive it!)
The government is afraid of smart people. (Explains why they leave the conspiracy guys alone.)
Cell phones cause brain tumors. "It's like proven."
The NRA are gun grabbers. (This shows you just how far to the right Alex is..)
There are government-run white slavery rings. (Alex didn't have time to say what government. He said there were lots of stories about this in the back of the newspaper. As usual, the statement is completely unsourced.)
Hitler blew up the Reichstag. (Blew it up? I thought he radio-controlled some planes into it. Or was it a missile...?)
Columbine was a government op. (Rule 1 for conspiracy nuts: anything you don't like is a government op. No proof required.)
Wal-Mart is a Defense Department front. (No proof required.)
Bill Clinton is a CIA agent. (Better you should ask, who's NOT a CIA agent in Alex's comic-book fantasy.)
Illegal aliens get to go to the front in emergency rooms. (They should--for keeping our economy afloat year after year.)
They put mercury in your vaccines to brain-damage your children. (Hence the 9/11 Truth Movement.)
The Aztecs would take hallucinogenic enemas and cut their penises off. (Ah, the Sixties!)
Alex Jones has correctly predicted everything that has happened in the last 10 years. (Can you spell M-E-G-A-L-O-M-A-N-I-A? I thought you could...)
FEMA has a giant private army. (They just can't find it.)
Everyone is talking about world government. (No they're not. As used by normal people, the phrase "new world order" simply means a change in the world order. It has no implication of world government. Conspiracy nuts are stupid--what can I say?)
Vaccines have brain-damaged millions of babies. (Based on a misreading of CDC documents. Alex Jones misreads everything in order to keep his fantasies flying.)
You can't succeed in academe unless you agree that 80% of the population has to be killed off. (That's all those stuck-up academics talk about.)
Black helicopters are real. (You create your own reality, dig.)
Illegal immigrants get free tuition and discounts on their Twinkies. They always go to the front of the line in emergency rooms. (It's part of the takeover.)
There's a worldwide takeover going on, perceptible only to dumb white guys...
...but everyone is waking up. (Conspiracy nuts always say "everyone is waking up." It's part of their delusional system--like their imagined ability to predict the future.)
The ruling elite of the world worship Moloch. (The evidence for this is a blurry video of the show at Bohemian Grove. Alex thinks the Bohemian Grove show is real.)
The secret rulers of the world can live forever. (No one knows where this comes from or why Alex believes it. I think it came from a dream Alex had. As far as I know, the rulers of the world continue to die normally.)
The elite have openly announced that they want to kill 80% of us. (But, oddly, in all the world only Alex Jones noticed these startling admissions!)
Dick Cheney writes papers saying terrorism isn't real. (Alex wouldn't say what papers. Though he talks incessantly about documentation, Alex Jones almost never says where he gets his information, much less why it's dependable.)
The U.S. Government went around Italy blowing up school busses full of children...& admitted it. (Twirling their moustaches & going "Nya-ha-ha-ha!" Alex hears a lot of admissions no one else can hear.)
The left-right political spectrum is bogus (This is the dominant paradigm of stupid people today! They never offer a shred of proof. It's just too self-evident to prove, when you're as smart as these guys.)
There are little wires in dollar bills that keep track of what you buy. (Somehow.)
Vicente Fox can morph into a green devil. (Alex says he saw him do it. Honest. This vision occurred when Fox visited Texas, c. 2003-4, & Alex bullhorned him.)
The Communist Chinese Army has taken over the Massachusetts Port Authority. (Maybe it's some kind of brain seizure with Alex.)
Noam Chomsky is a mongoloid idiot. Also an agent.
There are Illuminati symbols on Starbucks coffee cups. (The Illuminati leave clues visible only to angry white guys with IQ's in the mid-80's.)
Exits on tollroads are 50 miles apart. (It's a takeover opnly Alex Jones could see! Who woulda thought?)
Jacques Cousteau wanted to kill 80% of us. (Jacques, too? I wonder why he didn't live forever?)
Margaret Sanger gave & received awards from Hitler. (When the Nazis weren't burning her books.)
There are live AIDS viruses in the corn. (This means no sex with the corn.)
91% of Americans are Nazis. (Alex says anyone who favors gun control is a Nazi; 91% of Americans favor mandatory handgun registration; that's a lotta Nazis, Alex.)
The United Nations goes around Africa, sterilizing women at random (twirling their moustaches & going "Nya-ha-ha-haa!")
The Founding Fathers were basically stupid (they were Masons––but they didn't know about the secret conspiracy so obvious to Alex & his friends)
Masons can commit murder. They make a secret sign to the judges and are immediately set free. This has been solidly confirmed.
All throughout history, governments have always been Evil. (Bet you didn't know that. Like most of the Patriots, Alex is an anti-government bigot. He frequently poses as a historian, but no real historian subscribes to Alex Jones's bad comic book.)
Power outages are government plots.
Illegal immigration is a government plot.
The counterculture is a government plot.
Vaccines are a you-know-what.
Thumbscanning is a government plot.
Environmentalism is a government plot.
The National Seatbelt Initiative is a bloody government plot.
Feminism is a government plot.
Tollroads are a gummint plot.
This web page is a government plot.
Your mother is a government plot.
The goddam drug culture is a government plot. (Alex Buzzkill Jones.)
Cell phones are a government plot.
Wal Mart is a government plot. (A Defense Department front. It's all out there in the open...but only Alex Jones can see it. Far out.)
Sports are a government plot...somehow.
Antidepressants are a government plot. (Better you should say "What's NOT a government plot?")
All domestic terror attacks are government plots. (Pulled off by the most incompetent administration in history, fooling everyone in the world except angry white guys with IQ's in the mid-80's.)
The bad guys plant clues in TV shows and tell you what they're going to do on TV. (Though only one man in the world can perceive these clues. Think of the burden this puts on Alex.)
The government brings in all the drugs. (All of them! Only Alex Jones knows this. No documentation. No nothing. Just another bad dream Alex mistook for news.)
Arnold Schwartzeneggar is a known Nazi. (Only Alex knows this. Someone alert the Kennedys.)
Arnold Schwartzeneggar is part of an Austrian plot to take over America. (Alex really has it in for Arnie. He has a web page devoted entirely to ad hominem attacks against the ex-terminator.)
Skull & Bones is part of an English plot to take over America.
The United Nations is part of a (very slow) plot to take over America.

Children's cartoons are part of a government plot to brainwash us. (Alex Jones is immune. Conspiracy guys are always immune to the brainwashing they see everywhere. Nothing beats white-guy egotism!)
Organized religion is brainwashing us. (Doesn't Alex realize brainless people cannot brainwash?)
My cable show brainwashes you. (If that were true, people would be sending me money.)
The secret ruling elite of the world are putting up buildings that look like owls. (Only conspiracy people can see these owls, in case you were wondering. I wonder why they don't build pyramids with eyes on top of them.)
Most major police chiefs are CIA operatives.
Gloria Steinham is a CIA operative.
The voting-machine companies are openly run by the CIA. ("Openly run by the CIA" sounds like an oxymoron to me.)
The Quakers are communists. (Er...I thought communists were atheists. Of course, right-wing loonies have no concept of what communism is.)
All of Clinton's cabinet were Jewish. (Alex is not anti-Semitic. I don't know why he said this. Another dream, I guess.)
People in Holland have tattoos saying "Don't Kill Me." (Evidently a tougher country than we thought.)
Lyndon Johnson had John Kennedy killed. (I guess JFK was stupid, choosing LBJ as his running mate like that. Conspiracy guys are stupid, so they think everybody is stupid.)
The UN has sold thousands of children into slavery & for snuff films.
Gays are actively recruiting in our schools. (Why do right-wing loonies always believe this?)
The government keeps "giant, honeycombed hives full of toddlers drugged on lithium" (twirling their moustaches & going "NYA-HAHAHAHA!" The government...not the toddlers.)
The Rothschilds funded Hitler. (Some of the Rothschilds were arrested by Hitler and ransomed back to their family; others escaped Nazi Germany with only their lives.)
People in Africa tear off their arms after receiving vaccinations. (But then, we've all done that.)
The government is spraying us with EVIL CHEMICALS contained in the contrails of planes (also poisoning themselves, I guess. Shows you how ruthless the elite are.)
The United Nations goes around Africa, sterilizing women at random (twirling their moustaches & saying "Nya-ha-ha-haa!")
Every soldier who died in any war since the Civil War was a chump (you thought they were heroes; turns out they were nothing but fools; how's THAT for patriotism?)
Antidepressants are a government plot to bum us out.
The United Nations is part of a (very slow) plot to take over America.
Mercury travels from Africa to Austin on the Jet Stream. That's why Austinites have so many allergies.
IQ's are going down. (IQ's are going up.)
The cancer rate is up. (Most cancer rates are down.)
During his inauguration, President Clinton openly gave the sign of Satan for all the world to see. (They all worship Moloch, don't forget. I don't know how we get to Satan from there...but Alex says so.)
Alex Jones is saving humankind with his cable TV show, radio shows, & tapes (available for purchase, by the way).
Bad people are deliberately putting cancer viruses, AIDS viruses, & mercury in our vaccines (twirling their moustaches & going "Nya-hahaha!").
9-11 was only the beginning; there are going to be lots of even bigger domestic attacks (six years and waiting on this incredibly wrong prediction).
Most Americans believe the government was behind 9-11 (this is based on Alex's misreading of a Zogby poll; Alex misreads EVERYTHING)
They sacrifice babies at Bohemian Grove. (Try to imagine Richard Nixon sacrificing a baby. Or GWB. I guess Cheney would do it, perhaps inadvertently.)
They only hire people with IQ's below 100 to become police officers. (Like most "Patriots," Alex Jones is essentially a cop-hater. He will say anything bad about the police.)
Alex Jones has flawlessly predicted the future many times. (This is a delusion common to conspiracy guys. Here are some of Alex's bogus predictions.)



This list was brought to you by Perry Logan^TM

 

[apathoid]

A professor of Law that co-wrote the patriot act said that there is no statute to prevent Bush ordering the torture of children.

Is there a statute to prevent Bush from cannabalism, sacrificing virgins in his Satan worshipping, communicating with the alien race from Rygar 12?

No? Why do you think that is, Wizard??

 

[~enigma~]

Is there a statute to prevent Bush from cannabalism, sacrificing virgins in his Satan worshipping, communicating with the alien race from Rygar 12?

No? Why do you think that is, Wizard??

Don't waste your breath. This woowoo who deserves a much different title does not, will not, can not and will refuse to grasp the most basic concepts of logic and science.

 

[Wizard]

Is there a statute to prevent Bush from cannabalism, sacrificing virgins in his Satan worshipping, communicating with the alien race from Rygar 12?

No? Why do you think that is, Wizard??

Don't shoot the messenger.

You may think your above post is clever but this a professor of law I am quoting.

 

[beachnut]

wwoooowowwoowwowo

That will make WTC7 new...

 

[uk_dave]

Is there a statute to prevent Bush from cannabalism, sacrificing virgins in his Satan worshipping, communicating with the alien race from Rygar 12?

Jeez, and don't we wish there was?

At least then we'd be able to get some work done towards world domination and enslavement of the peasants...instead of all this eating virgins for lunch with Zorg of Rygar 12.....

 

[Architect]

Just for some light relief:

Is there a statute to prevent Bush from cannabalism,

Yup, in the UK: the Violation of Schepultures Act prevents mucking about with dead bods and graves.

sacrificing virgins in his Satan worshipping

,

That's just plain old murder, so that's easy. And even if they (the virgins) wanted to do it, so is assisting a suicide. It would also constitute a breech of the peace, as it happens.

communicating with the alien race from Rygar 12?

Aha. The Mental Health Act, I think.



Turning to Wizard's ridiculous circular argument, in Scots Law we have culpable negligence. Jones makes statements and presents them as being true. He had a responsibility to take reasonable steps to ensure that this is indeed the case. Of course Jones would probably just claim that his constitutional right to slander, libel, and make money from innocent people had been seized by the evil NWO.

 

[apathoid]

Don't shoot the messenger.

You may think your above post is clever but this a professor of law I am quoting.

Can you at least try to answer? Why isn't there a statute to keep the President from doing the things I mentioned?

 

[apathoid]

Yup, in the UK: the Violation of Schepultures Act prevents mucking about with dead bods and graves.

I don't want to know how you know this.....

 

[Architect]

I don't want to know how you know this.....

Several reasons; it includes the discovery of human remains on archaeological sites, which unfortunately aren't exactly uncommon in our historic town centres. There was also a case in Edinburgh where some young neds broke into a tomb and played football (ie soccer) with some of the heads. I think they were also done for theft......

You know some day's I have trouble working out the date, but for some reason this crap just springs up straight away.........

 

[Christopher7]

maccy; The kink developed 5-6s before the global collapse initiation.

Just looked at it again. I dont see it that way. I guess its a matter of interpretation.
In any case, its consistant with a CD.

"Once sufficient interior supports fail, all other supports will fail, including the exterior ones"

It is their working hypothesis. The draft of the final report is not yet published.

They had access to the plans, they no doubt did the calculations* and could not prove this assumption. If you think another 80 boxes of documents will yield the answer you want, your dreaming.

Please provide evidence of this crossbracing. And your calculations* of how the external structure was able to support the whole building.

If you knew anything about framing you wouldent have to ask that question.


I've already said: the load transferred to them was too great so they failed.

Theres nothing to support that statment. On the contrary, NIST tried to porve it and could not.

 

[tsig]

Dearie, dearie me. Wiz and Chris7. You've not really researched your comments about the engineering and archtiectural establishment views of the collapse, have you.

Let me first be clear; I'm a UK chartered architect who's just finished a contract with one of our leading firms doing tall buildings. If, like, Christophera, you doubt this then Gravy has all my registration details and should be able to give you the nod.

The first thing you have to appreciate is that building design, structural engineering, and fire engineering are necessarily complex issues. It takes a minimum of 5 years of university study to qualify in any of them, followed by several years of practical experience, and those of us who move into specialisms such as tall buildings then do a lot of "on the job" training.

So any suggestion that a comparable level of understanding sufficiently from googling the web, reading the odd book, or having a degree in a largely unrelated area such as physics is just not going to hold water.

Where people do attempt to argue alternative theories regarding the collapse it simply will not hold to make generalisms or talk about lay interpretation of photographic evidence. To be frank, professions will expect the kind of robust and proper analysis that we ourselves use to design and understand the structures.

Such informed papers are simply not available from the CT community; those few engineers (Pegelow, for example) who have weighed in on your side have wholly failed to provide any full written analysis that we can properly consider. Others who claim to have relevant experience (and a few are named by previous posters) clearly have no such thing. I would not employ an expert on low rise structures on my team because he would be of only limited use to my team.

A British analogy (or is it a metaphor?); who would you trust for a medical diagnosis - your consultant surgeon, with all his years of experience and training, or some bloke round the pub who watches Casualty on the telly and browsed google?

Now the fact is that the NIST/FEMA reports and collapses have been widely circulated in the construction community. There is debate around the fringes - for example Arup and Edinburgh University have made well reasoned arguments that fire alone might have induced collapse - however the underlying findings of the report are accepted universally. Let me be clear. UNIVERSALLY.

And I don't just mean in the US. I mean everywhere. The UK and Europe, where we have some of the leading universities in the world and (shock horror) also build tall buildings. Countries opposed to the US. Hell, countries who are close to War with the US.

But no, not a whimper.

Now what conclusion do you expect us to draw from this? You can't argue that we've not thought about it, because I can post you links to a ridiculous number of worldwide learned articles and lectures on the subject. You can't claim that we've been bought off, or are scared, because there's simply too many of us - especially outwith the US. And you can't claim that we're incompetent or sheeple because, frankly, we all hold postgraduate qualifications and have shown that we can cut it academically.

So why, oh why, do you keep trying to resort to this dead end? Get us qualified people! Get us proper structural and fire engineering calculations (I can give you examples, if you want). Don't rely on crappy videos and photographs when we all know that these only form one strand of any evidencial review.

Rant over. For now.

Thanks for the rant. I don't have near your chops, but this is really just math.


Gravity + heat = collapse.

 

[Horatius]

I would like the long list please

No point in re-inventing the wheel....


http://perrylogan.org/AlexBleef.html

 

[NobbyNobbs]

He doesn't claim thermite is fact though, I have never seen him call it anything other than a hypothesis he is testing. I have seen his lectures and I like his style, especially what he says about his detractors.

You like what Jones says about his detractors, but have a problem when someone here says "tin foil hatter"? That's pretty hypocritical.

Can you prove all these are untrue?

Why do you classify them as lies and not opinions?

Perhaps we have a semantics problem. For clarification, Wizard, would you please explain the difference between an opinion and a lie?

From Merriam -Webster:

Main Entry: 3lie
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): lied; ly·ing /'lI-i[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lEogan; akin to Old High German liogan to lie, Old Church Slavic lugati
intransitive verb
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
transitive verb : to bring about by telling lies <lied his way out of trouble>
synonyms LIE, PREVARICATE, EQUIVOCATE, PALTER, FIB mean to tell an untruth. LIE is the blunt term, imputing dishonesty <lied about where he had been>. PREVARICATE softens the bluntness of LIE by implying quibbling or confusing the issue <during the hearings the witness did his best to prevaricate>. EQUIVOCATE implies using words having more than one sense so as to seem to say one thing but intend another <equivocated endlessly in an attempt to mislead her inquisitors>. PALTER implies making unreliable statements of fact or intention or insincere promises <a swindler paltering with his investors>. FIB applies to a telling of a trivial untruth <fibbed about the price of the new suit>.

I suspect you have been using definition 1 only, whereas most others here recognize definition 2 as a valid definition. Notice that in defintion 2, no intent is necessary (although i have doubts that Jones unintentionally lies...but that is just my opinion.

And this bears repeating, as it was never addressed.

You know it's a lie. But you won't refute it until you have the full story. Sounds like you're already refuting it, by calling it a lie.

Perhaps it's not a lie. Perhaps it's just an omission, an opinion, an exaggeration, a misstatement.

Speaking of complete stories, we have yet to hear one from the CT point of view. From start to finish, how did the whole thing work?

See, here's how science works. You make an observation. You come up with a theory that explains as much of what you observed as possible. You test that theory through experiement, modeling, peer review, etc. If there are competing theories, they must be able to not only show where the original theory falls flat, but they must also be able to explain more than the original theory does.

For example:
--Ancient cultures observe the sun move across the sky. They theorize that a god pulls it in his chariot.
--Ptolemy makes more observations. Theorizes that the sun moves around the earth. This explains not only the viewed movement, but also the lack of a chariot.
--Copernicus et al make more observations. Theorizes that the earth moves around the sun in a circle. This not only explains the viewed movement and the lack of a chariot, but also the movement of moons seen through a telescope and the progressionof seasons.
--Kepler makes better observations. Theorizes that planets move in elliptical orbits.....

etc.

Now, in order for you to refute the official theory, it is necessary for you to provide an alternate theory that explains all the observable facts, plus any holes you think the official theory has. Your theory should be able to explain, among other things...
--how explosives were planted
--why the buildings were demolished
--who had motive, opportunity, and means to do it
--why Bin Laden took credit
--what the witnesses who watched the crash at the Pentagon actually saw.
--how the light poles were damaged
--how explosives could be detonated after being struck by an airliner
--how this could all remain covered up after all this time
--why worldwide groups of scientists and engineers have not voiced their outrage at what you think is obvious to the layperson.

And so on. Now, do you or do you not have a theory that does this?

 

[CurtC]

Jones does actually provide back up for his statement in the form of audio of an interview with a professor who helped fram the patriot act:

During a December 1st debate in Chicago with Notre Dame professor and international human rights scholar Doug Cassel, John Yoo gave the green light for the scope of torture to legally include sexual torture of infants.

Can you provide some context for this, like maybe a link? At first reading, assuming it's true, it sounds to me like they've defined sexual torture of infants as "torture," which is of course illegal and not allowed. For things the administration still wants to be able to do, they would carefully define those as "not torture."

 

[aggle-rithm]

maccy;

I've already said: the load transferred to them was too great so they failed.

Theres nothing to support that statment. On the contrary, NIST tried to porve it and could not.

Here's something to support it: The statement is true of all buildings supported by columns. It would therefore apply to the building in question as well.

Don't believe me? Let's do a thought experiment.

Say there's a building supported by 50 columns.

What happens if you remove all the columns? Clearly, since it is the columns that support the building, it will collapse.

What if you removed all but one? Would that one column support the building? Probably not, but it's possible.

Two columns? A little more likely than one, but the building certainly wouldn't be as stable as it would were all the columns intact.

So, now we have a continuum that spans a perfectly stable building with 50 columns, and a collapsed building with zero columns. In between those two extremes is a point at which there are insufficient columns to hold the building up.

Do you deny that this is true? If so, why?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Yes Steven Jones lied. Thermite is not used in controlled demolition. Go ahead and call the Loixeaux family yourself. Here is their number in Maryland...410-667-6610.

Not traditional controlled demolitions, no.

not in ANY controlled demolitions

if thermite was used on 9/11 (which jones says is a hypothesis only) it woul dbe the first and ONLY time it was EVER used in demolition

therefore, "thermite is used in controlled demolitions" is at best another hypothesis and at least a very dishonest statement because it implies it was used more than once (and even that once is a "hypothesis" right?)

 

[se7ensnakes]

The mysterious steel bending fire TRUTHERS VS NUTTERS

I AM A TRUTHER NOT A NUTTER-
Everyone that has suffered from the 9/11 catastrophe, whether direct or indirect wants retaliation of sorts..........they want a neat little evil package that they can punch and kick and let out their frustration, and point out......yep thats who did it. The last thing that they want to do is look at complicity by their own people, their psychology is not ready for the web of deceit. This is very much like a person addicted to some chemical.....in the exasperation the easy thing to do is to satisfy that addiction. This is exactly what is happening here.
1) Metal does not vanish from simple fires.
2) Open diesel fires do not conpromise high tensile steel. you can go to a fire place, puddle a large diesel fuel all day long and it wont affect 1/2" steel plates - you could not even record the difference between a cold steel plate and one that has been heated by diesel fuel while attempting to bend it using a hydraulic press. In fact you can see nist doing studies of heat transfer in metal beams ............but you dont see those beams bending.
3) If the building was indeed comprise, never in a million years would all of the steel reinforcement fail simultaneously. If someone tells you that they can............they are surely lying to you.
3) If an irregular fire capeable of affecting a modern code approved steel structure, it surely would not cause the building to fall so neatly on its own footprint. Today no building department has taken any measures to reinforce buildings in light of the 9/11 catastrophe. All codes regarding steel structures are conducted exactly the same way that they were before 9/11. Contrast that with the devastation of Hurricane Andrews in miami-dade county. Companies and engineers scrambled to make a better building --------- hence the strict Miami-dade product approval requirements. I have yet to see any building department making any new code requirements in light of the NIst / fema report. I think that deep down inside they dont believe that simple fires could bring down a code approved, UL certified, engineer approved steel structure.
4) Please dont insult my intelligence by telling me that a gash in the 10 floor constitute a "110 floor building falling on it."
5) NO MODERN CODE APPROVED, UL TESTED METAL STRUCTURE HAS EVER COLLAPSE ENTIRELY ON ITS OWN FOOT PRINT.

WHAT DO THE NUTTERS SAY:
"Yesterday as i was driving I95 there was a diesel truck engulf in flames, first it exploded into a giant fire ball and in a matter of an hour the entire truck completely collapse on its foot print. Part of the engine had melted and was glowing red hot."

"Last night the power went out...........so i took my kerosene lamp and lit it.........and guess what??? it melted!!!!"

"While preparing dinner on my sailboat's kerosene stove. the pot melted and poured all of the contents all over the teak floor!"

​

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Everyone that has suffered from the 9/11 catastrophe, whether direct or indirect wants retaliation of sorts..........they want a neat little evil package that they can punch and kick and let out their frustration, and point out......yep thats who did it. The last thing that they want to do is look at complicity by their own people, their psychology is not ready for the web of deceit. This is very much like a person addicted to some chemical.....in the exasperation the easy thing to do is to satisfy that addiction. This is exactly what is happening here.

Sweeping Generalization as a way to Poison the Well.

1) Metal does not vanish from simple fires.

Substantiate the implied claim that this occurred with the WTC towers.

2) Open diesel fires do not conpromise high tensile steel. you can go to a fire place, puddle a large diesel fuel all day long and it wont affect 1/2" steel plates - you could not even record the difference between a cold steel plate and one that has been heated by diesel fuel while attempting to bend it using a hydraulic press. In fact you can see nist doing studies of heat transfer in metal beams ............but you dont see those beams bending.

1) Why do steel support structures require fire resistant coating then?
2) Why do blacksmiths heat metal ingots in furnaces before working the metal then?

3) If the building was indeed comprise, never in a million years would all of the steel reinforcement fail simultaneously. If someone tells you that they can............they are surely lying to you.

1) Demonstrate that they failed "simultaneously"
2) Demonstrate why this could not have happened through structural failure.

3) If an irregular fire capeable of affecting a modern code approved steel structure, it surely would not cause the building to fall so neatly on its own footprint.

1) Define "its own footprint"
2) Demonstrate where the debris from the towers remained within the footprint you defined in #1

Today no building department has taken any measures to reinforce buildings in light of the 9/11 catastrophe. All codes regarding steel structures are conducted exactly the same way that they were before 9/11. Contrast that with the devastation of Hurricane Andrews in miami-dade county. Companies and engineers scrambled to make a better building --------- hence the strict Miami-dade product approval requirements. I have yet to see any building department making any new code requirements in light of the NIst / fema report. I think that deep down inside they dont believe that simple fires could bring down a code approved, UL certified, engineer approved steel structure.

I believe you are in error on this, but I will allow our resident engineers to comment on this point rather than spend time looking it up.

4) Please dont insult my intelligence by telling me that a gash in the 10 floor constitute a "110 floor building falling on it."

This statement makes no sense. Please rephrase it in a more intelligible manner.

5) NO MODERN CODE APPROVED, UL TESTED METAL STRUCTURE HAS EVER COLLAPSE ENTIRELY ON ITS OWN FOOT PRINT.

Lack of precedent is not evidence of impossibility.

<straw men snipped from the rest of se7ensnakes' post.

 

[HeyLeroy]

Claim: An air traffic controller reported that they thought flight 77 was a military plane.

Truth: The full quote was referring to the unsafe way the plane was flying, not that it was impossible for a civilian plane to fly like that. "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane you don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

That's a lie by ommission.

Claim, Flight 77 managed to tear 5 light poles completely out of the ground,
Without damaging either the wings or the light poles themselves.

Truth: We don’t know that the wings were undamaged, since they crashed into the Pentagon fractions of a second later. There are pictures of the light poles, however, which show them broken and twisted

Its lieing if you just make it up.

Claim: The only damage to the outer wall of the Pentagon was a single hole, no more than 16 feet in diameter.

Truth: The hole was approximately 90 feet wide. The 16 foot measurement was only achieved by looking at pictures where the rest of the hole was obscured by smoke and foam from the firefighters.

My favorite since the 90-100 feet of missing first floor wall is so bloody obvious that using only photos that obscure it has to be dishonest.
Do I have to go on?

I wouldn't call those lies

Why not?

The first is an omission, which may have been from a secondary source and not known by the makers of the film.

The other two are opinions based on their interpretation of the photographs which they show in the film

Those are lies. They knew, or should have known unless they're bat$h!t crazy, that the information they were presenting was just plain wrong!

So, are they liars, or mentally ill? Those are the only two options here.

How am I a troll?

By constantly posting the same drivel over and over, when being presented with the actual facts, provided by actual experts.

Oh, and for shucking and jiving, bobbing and weaving, as follows:

What would call a guy who mistates the 2nd law of thermodynamics to make his case look better?

Either I'd call them a Creationist or Dr. Jones. Either way, they are lying (or, in Jones case, so inanely incompetent that they must have lied about their education).

C'mon Wizard, stop being coy. Enough with the one sentence quips. Hit us with both barrels. Tell us what you believe and why.

If you are already aware of them then I won't be presenting them for you.

You asked how I know the official story is a lie. There is no official story for the complete collapse of the towers and the NIST report is flawed in it's assessment of collapse initiation. It is all conjecture regarding fireproofing which has not been proven by any standard of evidence.

Before I start refuting the official story I would like a complete official story.

Your avoidance skills would put Barry Sanders to shame.

Just give him Perry's list...

[SIZE=-1] Israel microwaved a hundred thousand of its own children.
Your cell phones are watching you every moment.
The main source of meat in North Korea is executed prisoners.
SWAT teams are being taught that Christians are evil.
The government can control the weather. (All conspiracy guys believe this. What's the deal?)
(SNIP loooooong list of mind-numbing, paranoid-delusional ranting)

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=+1]& finally...my personal favorite:[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]Alex Jones can predict the future, because he goes to the SECRET WEBSITES where the New World Order tells you EVERYTHING IT'S GOING TO DO![SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

Can you prove all these are untrue?

Why do you classify them as lies and not opinions?

SNAP! THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM BEARS THE BURDEN OF PROOF!!!

AAAH!!! I'M USING ALL CAPITALS AGAIN!!!!!

But you must prove that he knows the opinion is false before you can label him a liar. I actually think he believes the things he says.

I would like to see these disproofs of all those statements

AAAH!!! WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE PROOFS OF THESE INSANE CLAIMS!!! AAAAH!!!

(ETA) Oh, and for avoiding this question like the plague,

Dude, they're capital letters in a post on the internet. I ain't showing up at your front door in jackboots with a machine-gun and an arrest warrant.

You do realize that two fully-fuelled planes weighing roughly 300,000 lbs each crashed into those towers at 443 mph and 542 mph, don't you?

Can you carry that thought logically to what happened next?

I'm calling you:

If you need an avatar, feel free to use it.