Some simple Tower 7 questions

[jaydeehess]

apparently no one started them (presumably they had evactuated)

but the point is that the means of getting to fuel to the generators must be separate from the main power grid otherwise you wouldnt be able to start the generators when the power goes out

It is not uncommon for generators to supply power ONLY to some ccts in an office but not for instance the entire lighting grid. This means that the generator need not be large and not as expensive as one that would completely replace all power usage in that office or building.

There were several genertors in the building each supplying power to different offices. Only those offices on their circuits would have power and only those circuits within those offices that were deemed most important would be connected to the no break power.

For such the ccts supplied by a generator there is usually a battery back up system in place that is supplierd by the normal power grid. If that power goes out the battery back up supplies power alone until the generator starts which it does automatically upon loss of normal power. The outside power connection is completely severed by way of relays while the generator is running(this is required both for the safe operation of the generator and to keep the generator from trying to supply the entire city with power along the incoming lines). As soon as the generator control circuitry detects that the generator is up to speed and voltage it throws a relay that supplies power to the battery back up power system. this ensures that power circuits that are on this system never see an interruption in power, no power surges, no power frequency (60 Hz) interruptions. This in turn means that computerized equipment gets an uninterrupted power. In a normal blackout this would mean that someone at a computer could , at their ease, finish and save whatever they were working on and then power down the computer with no loss or damage.

Of course the fuel pump that supplies the generator MUST also be on the back up power system or the whole exercise is useless. Thus as long as the generator is running the fuel is being pumped.

 

[jaydeehess]

Chief Hayden saw a bulge in the south west corner between floors 10 and 13 and he was pretty sure WTC7 would collapse.
[He also said "It took a while for those fires to develop"]

Chief Felini said that the steel was ripped out from between the third and the sixth floors.

Firemen leaving the building at 12:15 said "No heavy debris was observed in the lobby area. [NIST Apendex L pg 18]

Firefighter: " the only damage to the 9th floor facade occurred at the south west corner." [FEMA pg 20]

The 10 story hole is in conflict with these statements yet it was first shown as a "possibie reigon of impact" [NIST Apendex L pg 23] and then as an "approximate rigon of impact" [pg 31]

Are you claiming that NIST just made up the story about the gash in the middle of the south face?

You know about the elevator that was damaged in WTC 7? The elevators were not on the outside wall.

The reports about the damage to the middle of the south face do differ but they do agree that it was multi-story damage.

Since you may well not have botyhered to actually read what NIST states and rather relied upon CT sites to tell you what they say that NIST states:

From appendix L;

After WTC 2 collapsed:
• Some south face glass panes were broken at lower lobby floors
• Dust covered the lobby areas at Floors 1 and 3
• Power was on in the building and phones were working
• No fires were observed
Reported close to time of WTC 1 collapse:
• East stair experienced an air pressure burst, filled with dust/smoke, lost lights
• West stair filled with dust/smoke, lost lights, swayed at Floors 29 through 30, and a crack was
felt (in the dark) on the stairwell wall between Floors 27 through 28 and Floors 29 through 30
• Floors 7 and 8 had no power, air was breathable but not clear
• Phone lights on Floor 7 were on but could not call out

After WTC 1 collapsed:
• Heavy debris (exterior panels from WTC 1) was seen on Vesey Street and the WTC 7
promenade structure at the third floor level
• Southwest corner damage extended over Floors 8 to 18
• Damage was observed on the south face that starts at the roof level and severed the spandrels
between exterior columns near the southwest corner for at least 5 to 10 floors. However, the
extent and details of this damage have not yet been discerned, as smoke is present.
• Damage to the south face was described by a number of individuals. While the accounts are
mostly consistent, there are some conflicting descriptions:
− middle one-fourth to one-third width of the south face was gouged out from Floor 10 to
the ground
− large debris hole near center of the south face around Floor 14
− debris damage across one-fourth width of the south face, starting several floors above the
atrium (extended from the ground to 5th floor), noted that the atrium glass was still intact
− from inside the building at the 8th or 9th Floor elevator lobby, where two elevator cars
were ejected from their shafts and landed in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, the
visible portion of the south wall was gone with more light visible from the west side
possibly indicating damage extending to the westAt 12:10 to 12:15 p.m.:
• Firefighters found individuals on Floors 7 and 8 and led them out of the building
• No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8
• Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving
• No heavy debris was observed in the lobby area as the building was exited, primarily white
dust coating and black wires hanging from ceiling areas were observed
Photographs support some of these reports and show additional damage at the upper portions of the
building. Figure L–21 is an aerial view of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 1. There is no visible debris
on the roof; some minor damage is seen on the south side at the parapet wall. Figures L–22a and L–22b
show the reported damage between Floors 8 to 18 at the southwest corner. Much of the damage above
Floor 18 appears to be nonstructural. The black areas on the facade indicate areas of burned out fires.
Note the heavy smoke obstructing any observations along the south face. Study of this photograph
indicates that at least two exterior columns were severed. Figures L–23a and L–23b show the debris on
Vesey Street in front of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 1. The pedestrian bridge (L–23a) and the
Interim Report on WTC 7
L–19
promenade (L–23b) appear to be standing, although damaged. Exterior panels from WTC 1 can be seen
on Vesey Street and on the promenade. The approximate extent of possible damage due to debris from
WTC 1 is shown in Fig. L–23c.

 

[jaydeehess]

When the power went off the pressure pump would have stopped

One of the top contenders for the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

What use is a back up generator if, upon loss of street power, its fuel pump cannot run?

 

[jaydeehess]

This image is being used on Pilots for 911 truth.
Ignoring the CT jibber, one does see that WTC 7 is the closest building to the north tower other than the ones on the same block. The green circle around tower 1 envelopes more of WTC7 than any other building outside the block of WTC buildings.

View attachment 4538

I note also that there is indeed damage to every building within the green circles, and there is also damage to buildings that are outside the green circles.

What I wonder about is how they came up with the red circle as the "realistic collapse plume".

 

[Christopher7]

Are you claiming that NIST just made up the story about the gash in the middle of the south face?

I say they misinterpreted Boyle's statement and ignored the statements to the contrary. The '10 story hole' is a crock of s*it.

You know about the elevator that was damaged in WTC 7? The elevators were not on the outside wall.

There was damage to the 14th floor, possibly a beam went thru there and dislodged the elevators on the 8th floor.
BTW; WTC 1 fell straight down. How could a beam [or anything else] be thrown 300'-350' to the side and hit WTC 7 with such force as to take out the exterior columns and then dislodge the elevators?

The reports about the damage to the middle of the south face do differ but they do agree that it was multi-story damage.

There was multi story damage but no 10 story hole.

Since you may well not have botyhered to actually read what NIST states and rather relied upon CT sites to tell you what they say that NIST states:

I read it

From appendix L;

After WTC 1 collapsed:

• Damage to the south face was described by a number of individuals. While the accounts are
mostly consistent, there are some conflicting descriptions:

*− middle one-fourth to one-third width of the south face was gouged out from Floor 10 to the ground*

Falce: In conflict with 3 other statements.

− large debris hole near center of the south face around Floor 14

− debris damage across one-fourth width of the south face, starting several floors above the atrium ***(extended from the ground to 5th floor)***, noted that the ***atrium glass was still intact***

This statement is in conflict with Chief Fellini's statement and itself.

visible portion of the south wall was gone with more light visible from the west side ***possibly*** indicating damage extending to the west

South west corner

At 12:10 to 12:15 p.m.:
• Firefighters found individuals on Floors 7 and 8 and led them out of the building
• No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8
• Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving
• No heavy debris was observed in the lobby area as the building was exited, primarily white
dust coating and black wires hanging from ceiling areas were observed

No heavy debris in lobby and the ceiling intact prove that the 10 story hole described below is intentionally misleading.

The ***approximate extent of possible damage*** due to debris from
WTC 1 is shown in Fig. L–23c.[/quote]

 

[defaultdotxbe]

I say they misinterpreted Boyle's statement and ignored the statements to the contrary. The '10 story hole' is a crock of s*it.

Captain Chris Boyle
Engine 94 - 18 years

Boyle: ...on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

how were those statements misinterpreted? (and yes, according to boyle 10 story hole is crap, he says 20 stories)

and what statements to the contrary do you have?

 

[Bell]

*sigh*

The North Tower DID NOT fell straigth down...

 

[Bell]

*sigh*

The North Tower DID NOT fell straigth down...

Just incase...

And a link to a HUGE image...

 

[Christopher7]

how were those statements misinterpreted? (and yes, according to boyle 10 story hole is crap, he says 20 stories)

and what statements to the contrary do you have?

Ive read his statement carefully;
"We were told to go tp Greenwich and Vessy"
[Greenwich dead ends into the middle of the north side of WTC 7. To see WTC 6 he was at Vessey and West st.]
"...on the north and the east side of 7 it didn't look like they had any damage at all but when you looked at the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building"
He's calling the damage to the south east corner "the south side"

I have already listed 4 statements to the contrary:

1) No heavy debris in lobby: ceiling intact. [NIST]
2) Atrium windows intact. [NIST]
3) Damage between 3rd and 6th floors. [Hayden]
4) Only damage to 9th floor at s - e corner. [FEMA]

 

[Christopher7]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down. Ive never heard anyone say anything different.
Your third photo is iteresting in that it shows pieces of WTC 7 outer frame work sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.
Can gravity alone eject these huge pieces of steel 400' laterally with enough force to pierce WFC 3 ?

 

[gumboot]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down. Ive never heard anyone say anything different.

You don't listen very hard then. You wont find anyone here who will agree that WTC1 fell "straight down". It did anything but.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

Just incase...

And a link to a HUGE image...

Eek. I'd never looked at that pic before because it took so long to download. The sheer scale is utterly overwhelming.

An interesting note...

The exterior columns are clearly identifiable as they were in those 3-storey sections with the cross-beams. There's a lot of MUCH larger beams which can only be the core columns. And there's a lot of them on top of the pile, which simply re-confirms video evidence that the cores collapsed after the remainder of the structure (which in itself refutes a CD hypothesis).

-Gumboot

 

[Mancman]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down. Ive never heard anyone say anything different.
Your third photo is iteresting in that it shows pieces of WTC 7 outer frame work sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.
Can gravity alone eject these huge pieces of steel 400' laterally with enough force to pierce WFC 3 ?

Yup. Straight down. No debris left the perimeter of the tower.

 

[HeyLeroy]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down. Ive never heard anyone say anything different.Your third photo is iteresting in that it shows pieces of WTC 7 outer frame work sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.
Can gravity alone eject these huge pieces of steel 400' laterally with enough force to pierce WFC 3 ?

THEN HOW FRICKIN' LONG DID IT TAKE THEM TO PLANT THE FAKE DEBRIS!!!???!!!

AAAHHH!!! MY CAPS-LOCK IS STUCK AGAIN!!!

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Ive read his statement carefully;
"We were told to go tp Greenwich and Vessy"
[Greenwich dead ends into the middle of the north side of WTC 7. To see WTC 6 he was at Vessey and West st.]
"...on the north and the east side of 7 it didn't look like they had any damage at all but when you looked at the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building"
He's calling the damage to the south east corner "the south side"

I have already listed 4 statements to the contrary:

1) No heavy debris in lobby: ceiling intact. [NIST]
2) Atrium windows intact. [NIST]
3) Damage between 3rd and 6th floors. [Hayden]
4) Only damage to 9th floor at s - e corner. [FEMA]

how how do you account for this?

but when you looked at the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building

 

[beachnut]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down. Ive never heard anyone say anything different.
Your third photo is iteresting in that it shows pieces of WTC 7 outer frame work sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.
Can gravity alone eject these huge pieces of steel 400' laterally with enough force to pierce WFC 3 ?

Yes. Do you always fail to answer the easy questions yourself?

 

[Bell]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=857154317067257405

One of the many video's of the collapse.

Ive never heard anyone say anything different.

Within the deniers community, I guess?

Your third photo is iteresting in that it shows pieces of WTC 7 outer frame work sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.

That would be debris from WTC1, not WTC7. But I assume it's a typo.

Can gravity alone eject these huge pieces of steel 400' laterally with enough force to pierce WFC 3 ?

The outside of the WTC collapsed kind of like a peeled banana (pardon the poor example). Something like this:

|       /        /         \
|      |        /         |
|      |       |        /
|      |       |       |
|      |       |       |

 

[jaydeehess]

Ive read his statement carefully;
"We were told to go tp Greenwich and Vessy"
[Greenwich dead ends into the middle of the north side of WTC 7. To see WTC 6 he was at Vessey and West st.]
"...on the north and the east side of 7 it didn't look like they had any damage at all but when you looked at the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building"
He's calling the damage to the south east corner "the south side"

The other damage to WTC 7 was on the south-west corner, not the south-east!

"A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

He is not saying that he was told to go to the corner of Greenwich and Vesey. They don't intersect. He was told to check things out on Greenwich and on Vesey. They went down Greenwich till they got to the north side of WTC7 then went east and along the east side of WTC7 and followed West Broadway to Vesey and saw the south side of WTC7. He is not saying that the damage he is describing was in the corner and when asked to clarify he states, "There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it.

When he went south along Greenwich to Barclay he had a choice, go east or go west. OBVIOUSLY by what he says next he went east. He does not explain this in minute detail because anyone with an iota of sense would understand this.

Gee, he also says "Debris was falling down on the building ". Obviously debris was no longer falling "on" WTC 7. Where would it come from? I suspect that he meant debris was falling "off" but whatever he meant to say I would never call him a liar because of this. I'm suprised you didn't.

 

[jaydeehess]

Bell: All the videos show WTC 1 comming straight down. Ive never heard anyone say anything different.
Your third photo is iteresting in that it shows pieces of WTC 7 outer frame work sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.
Can gravity alone eject these huge pieces of steel 400' laterally with enough force to pierce WFC 3 ?

Actually the photo shows large pieces of WTC 1's (not WTC 7) perimeter frame sticking out of the wall of WFC 3.

The force to pierce WFC 3 certainly can be obtained by gravity. After a fall of 500 feet (for eg.) it would be moving 100 MPH vertically. To travel 400 feet horizontally in the time it takes to fall 500 feet (5.6 seconds) it would need a horizontal velocity of 48 MPH. This means it would have hit WFC 3 at an angle of 38 degrees to the wall of WFC 3. Total velocity in the direction of travel is then 110 MPH. I think that is enough to penetrate the wall, don't you.

So your question then is could the collapsing building generate enough force on perimeter sections to get them moving at 48 MPH (slower if it came from higher than 500 feet above the location they hit WFC 3). I don't see why not. Perhaps you'd like to supply some calculations that demonstrate why not.

 

[Christopher7]

how how do you account for this?

Captain Boyle: "...but when you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories high in the building,"

Even though he was standing near the south east corner he must have been talking about the south west corner because:

No heavy debris in the lobby
Wires hanging from celing [celing intact]
Atrium windows intact
[NIST]

A 20 story hole "about a third of it,right in the middle of it."

would have destroyed the Atrium windows,
the lobby celing,
and left lots of heavy debris in the lobby.

Add to that
Chief Felini: "steel ripped out from between the third and the sixth floors."
[NY Times - Oral histories]
Firefighter: The only damage to the 9th floor facade occurred at the south west corner."
[FEMA]

Chief Boyle's statement "20 stories high, about a third of it, right in the middle of it" roughly fits the damage to the south west corner.