• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

This is the thread that may very well change the way you look at 9/11 FOREVER!

Yes, it was a different color. The black you see in the pictures of submarines is paint, surely they have it where you live. The steel is a nice silvery-grey color, and shiny, like the keys mommy uses to distract you.

Well, there you go....the steel was silvery-grey - and the molten slab was silvery-grey.

THAT CORE column is a distinctly different color than the cooled molten metal on top of it. WHO DARES go on record and say that molten slab can be a different color than the metal from which it came? Please go on record...so I can have my Perry Mason moment.
 
Since he seems to be ignoring you, I'll cover this for him...

<ahem> THAT's NOT slag! And where did that bronze coloured thing come from? The TOWERS weren't bronze! That's Scientific!

Should I quote myself at this point?

AND it's not on a COLUMN! Who welds things in a little pile on THE FLOOR?
 
Well, there you go....the steel was silvery-grey - and the molten slab was silvery-grey.

THAT CORE column is a distinctly different color than the cooled molten metal on top of it. WHO DARES go on record and say that molten slab can be a different color than the metal from which it came? Please go on record...so I can have my Perry Mason moment.

I think about 5 people, all of whom work with metal on a regular basis, already have. Just now. Are you in the same thread the rest of us are?
 
Well, there you go....the steel was silvery-grey - and the molten slab was silvery-grey.

THAT CORE column is a distinctly different color than the cooled molten metal on top of it. WHO DARES go on record and say that molten slab can be a different color than the metal from which it came? Please go on record...so I can have my Perry Mason moment.

WRONG! The steel was silver-grey, the slag was BLACK. Just like in the picture.

Really, you don't know what you are talking about.

There, I went on record. It was a different color.

Oh, yeah, almost forgot!

What a maroon!
 
And more importantly, this is NOT a picture of a BLACK CAT!

94904556878f8963d.jpg


Everyone SCIENTIFICALLY KNOWS that BLACK CATS hate water, so why would he be near a SINK? That CONtains WATER, you know H20, The SCIENTIFIC words for "things that cats hate"????

That is clearly a picture of a crazed wallaby. I know, because I've NEVER been to NEW ZEALAND! But I did see LOTR, stupid hobitses.
 
Good so it shouldn't be so hard to find some pics of molten slab...that is a distinctly different color than the metal from which it came..I know someone posted a pic of molten slab...but I can't even tell what I'm looking at...I need to be able to see the original color of the metal that the slab is on and also the molten slab...that has cooled off on the original piece of metal/steel

Thanks.
 
I guess you have Porkpie on ignore too ?
Have you ever even seen, let alone touched, a blowtorch?
I admit I haven't been very nice to this particular idiot, maybe I should lay off the Nyquil and hot toddies for a couple of days (heheheh)



Oxyfuel gas cutting consists of a number of cutting processes used to cut metals by means of the chemical reaction of oxygen with the base metal at elevated temperatures. The required temperature is maintained by via a flame obtained from the combustion of a specified fuel gas mixed with pure oxygen. A jet of pure oxygen is directed into the preheated area instigating a chemical reaction between the oxygen and the metal to form iron oxide or slag. The oxygen jet blows away the slag enabling the jet to pierce through the material and continue to cut
through the material.
http://www.teskolaser.com/flame_cutting.html

ETA: The parent material and slag are DIFFERENT substances altogether you silly mixed up man-child!
 
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Well, there you go....the steel was silvery-grey - and the molten slab was silvery-grey.

THAT CORE column is a distinctly different color than the cooled molten metal on top of it. WHO DARES go on record and say that molten slab can be a different color than the metal from which it came? Please go on record...so I can have my Perry Mason moment.

I have a million dollars for you, courtesy of Randi, if you can cut a steel beam coated with white paint and have your torch produce something other than charcoal grey/black slag....

Heck, you can even take a torch to anodized stainless steel and get charcoal black slag. THAT IS SCIENCE. NOT AN OPINION, 28k.
 
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but I can't even tell what I'm looking at

And this is a problem now?

You had no problems professing your precise knowledge of thermite reactions, controlled demolitions, steel stresses, the melting of metals, fire safety and loads of other topics just from YouTube videos! Now someone posts pictorial evidence that is clearer than all those sources you've based your entire thesis on and you introduce doubt of your personal expertise on metalworking?

You're about 27 pages too late, but I think you might be getting it!
 
Here you go!

A picture of a nice, shiny tank being attacked with a cutting torch. Notice the slag is black....

http://images.worldofstock.com/slides/PWO1541.jpg

You are my new best friend...thanks for proving me right. That black looks like smoke residue to me. hahahaha

Anyway:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2271/thermiteut7.jpg

Are you all agreeing that this molten slag is the steel from the column that has been melted from a torch?

I am setting this up for a grand slam. hehehe.
 
Also, just because 9/11 is an inside job...does NOT IMPLY I am saying certain people and/or organizations know about it. I don't even understand how you imply that I'm saying NIST is in on it.
You imply that the NIST report is a fabrication or a product of a government cover-up, and you have NEVER stated your opinion that the scientists were innocent in the matter.
They might just be taking orders from above...
So, you are accusing them of removing their scientific ethics in order to support the largest terrorist plot in US history. You believe that there are some 500 people sitting in their offices right now who don't feel in the least bit guilty for assisting the government in murdering their fellow citizens. You believe that scientists are all a bunch of orders following sheep who will produce any theory and any report with no basis on evidence just because their superiors tell them to. You believe NIST scientists are cowards, sycophantic patsys who will do anything to keep their job including breaking every known principle of ethics and participating in a lie. You believe they do all this so that they can keep their jobs.

Is this what you believe?
NO, I don't think they were actively involved in planning 9/11...but, just say that some people in NIST have reason to believe it is an inside job
No, let's not make a wild, baseless assumption that proves your point. Let's assume that all NIST scientists are brilliant, upstanding citizens with the highest standards of morality and ethics. Now, let's work on that assumption.
...what do they have to benefit from speaking out?
They no longer have to live with the horrible guilt of lies and deceit of the American people. For a moral person, this is all the benefit they need.
Do you really think it will make a difference?
Yes, an earth shatteringly huge difference. You conspiracy theorists would jump up to make him/her ruler of the entire operation. It would be a big deal.
The only thing that will happen is this person will be painted as a traitor...an idiot...a CTer...unpatriotic etc etc.
Unless he was able to provide documentation and proof of coercion. That, of course, is the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a whistle blower: Whistle blowers produce hard evidence, and then they go to the press. Conspiracy theorists go to the press with the promise of finding the truth, once they get enough attention, that is.
Not to mention the fact, that he will be blacklisted from an entire industry of jobs. Is the picture getting any clearer?
What industry is NIST in? What do they do?
In addition: do we even know the names of all the experts from around the world who were involved in the NIST?
Yes. Their names are listed on the first pages of the NIST NCSTAR1 report.
And, if so...do any of them have their own individual reports?
Yes, many published companion or individual reports detailing their involvement, some were able to publish seperate technique reports.
Has anyone taken the time to see if any of these experts have spoken out about the NIST?
Yes, none of them have. If one did, you can bet the CTists would be the first to report it.
See, the thing you may be overlooking is the fact that although you say there are hundreds involved in the NIST...THERE IS BUT ONE REPORT!
So hundreds of different people should all publish separate reports detailing individual aspects of the investigation, but no one should ever think to gather all of the information and put it in one, easily accessible source and make it available to the public? Do you have any idea how much it costs to get reprints of different reports from different journals? The cost alone would make obtaining the NIST report impossible for the general public.
I've already stated at how the NIST is government funded.
And I've already shown how this is a poisoning the well fallacy.
..so how easy do you think it would be for them (the government) to HOMOGENIZE this ONE report...down into whatever they want it to be?
So, let me get this straight. A lot of scientists and industry collaborators all get together and produce a report that they believe to be correct and hand it to their administrators. The administrators proceed to change the report however they see fit and then publish the finished report. None of the scientists ever read the finished report (NIST released two reports, one draft for comment and one final report), because if they did, they might notice that the report said the opposite of what their data did. Is that what you believe?
(Distorting reality is a very simple process...the american media do it every day...
And they get away with it because people don't fact check. A scientist would fact check his and others work.
and they don't even need to lie...being disingenuous will work just fine.
And which is a greater breach of ethics? Disingenuous? How is that any different from lying?
All they do is omit certain facts and/or details...
Please show what facts and details were omitted from the NIST report. I would love to see this.
From what I know...the NIST doesn't even consider planted explosives into their calculations.
Because they found no evidence of explosives being used.

Ug, I'll finish this debunking later, and since you seem to have no time to address any of my points, I'll do it for my own edification.
 
You are my new best friend...thanks for proving me right. That black looks like smoke residue to me. hahahaha

Anyway:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2271/thermiteut7.jpg

Are you all agreeing that this molten slag is the steel from the column that has been melted from a torch?

I am setting this up for a grand slam. hehehe.

Ignorance is not bliss, 28th Kingdom. Have you any experience with torches or metalwork in general?
Why are you so sure that you are right when you have no relevant experience in the matter?
 
A jet of pure oxygen is directed into the preheated area instigating a chemical reaction between the oxygen and the metal to form iron oxide or slag.http://www.teskolaser.com/flame_cutting.html

ETA: The parent material and slag are DIFFERENT substances altogether you silly mixed up man-child!

Am I in the twilight zone? Hahahaha...No crap the parent material and slag are different substances....AND NO CRAP - iron oxide is the SAME crap that's in therma/ite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
 
You are my new best friend...thanks for proving me right. That black looks like smoke residue to me. hahahaha

Anyway:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2271/thermiteut7.jpg

Are you all agreeing that this molten slag is the steel from the column that has been melted from a torch?

I am setting this up for a grand slam. hehehe.

You've not noticed the line of melted and solifided material along the bottom edge of the cut? You obviously have eyesight problems, see your optometrist immediately.

And yes that column was probaly cut by a oxyacetylence torch or possibly a thermal lance.

HeHeHe is juvenile...or Muttley.
 
You are my new best friend...thanks for proving me right. That black looks like smoke residue to me. hahahaha
And you, sir, are a dolt that needs glasses. Smoke residue? Riiiight.

I am setting this up for a grand slam. hehehe.

Hm, the only grand slam I have in mind is when somebody drops a pile of slag on you. Maybe then you'll actually get the point.
 
Yoo-hoo - 28th - HELLO?!?!

Right, let's see:

1. Fire as a Failure Mechanism

28th drew attention to the NISt report sections highlighting the combined action of the fire, damage to insulation, and loss of structural elements before going on to note:

Okay - scratch "LIKELY" now they are saying that the two towers WOULD HAVE remained standing if the insulation would have survived the plane impact. So how is the NIST so sure the insulation was even knocked off significantly? Surely, there isn't any evidence to unequivocally prove that the insulation from the floors that suffered the impacts was dislodged...so aren't they completely hypothesizing without a shred of actual proof? If so, does this "expert" theory sound all that solid and/or concrete if at the very foundation...we are working from a complete and utter assumption? Oh yea, I forget they actually set up some reenactments wherein trying to simulate the impacts of the planes on the towers - in hopes of determining what kind of damage it would have done to the insulation. Do you want to know one of the simulations they tried? They took and shot bullets at a small object covered in insulation. The bullets knocked off chips of the insulation so they concluded that the plane impact probably knocked off most of the thermal insulation. Does this sound very scientific and/or conclusive to you? Don't you think they would have spent most of their time on this most critical analysis since, they even admit...that although several events factored into the entire collapse - impacts, fires, upper mass bearing down - that...all of this would have been prevented if the thermal insulation would have remained intact. The brightest minds in the world and the best they can come up with to simulate a plane impacting a building is shooting bullets at a small block sitting in a wood box. One of the most important investigations in the history of the world...and this is what these "experts" come up with?

I then responded:

Sorry, 28th, but you're not letting a realistic understanding of building fabric performance issues get in the way of your theory.

1. We know - for sure - that steelwork fails under normal fire conditions. This is recognised in building standards and codes throughout the world, backed up by substantial research, and pre-dates 9/11 by many years.

2. For this reason we fire protect steel. Various systems are used; for example in the UK encapsulation in 2 layers broken bond plasterboard screw fixed into battens at the webs is quite common, with Cape Board used where greater protection is required. Then there are spray on coatings (a la WTC) with various bases including asbestos. Then at the top end of the scale we have intumescent coatings (look it up).

3. You will note that none of these protection systems is all that robust in the overall scheme of things, which is quite understandable when you consider installation issues.

4. Where there is perceived to be a meaningful risk of explosion, etc. then one would naturally consider a more robust or a composite approach. This was not, however, considered to be an issue at WTC and was not (as I understand) recognised in US building codes.

Just as an aside, I find it quite puzzling that the engineers designed the building to take account of a 707 inpact and severe damage to the loadbearing facade however they didn't use more rubust fireproofing or protection to the fire escapes. It's got "cock up" written all over it, but as the guys at Citicorp can testify these things happen.

5. Plane(s) hit. Massive explosion in impact areas. Heavy fuel fire. Even before we consider how well the original coatings were applied - and there have been questions asked about that - we can say with some certainty that there will be problems. Ironically a concrete structure would have had a much better chance of survival.

This is basic, 2nd year university stuff. Not rocket science. I just don't see why you (ie 28th) seem to be making an issue of it. You're just wasting your own time.

I then referred to two detailed analyses carried out by Sheffield and Edinburgh Universities regarding the fire failure mechanism:


2. Vertical Collapse Mechanism

28th has also questioned the vertical collapse pattern and failure of the lower structure to deflect the upper portion:

So the upper mass of floors...is taking out the core columns, the outer grid and the floors...all at once? Just say the upper mass of floors (above the impact point) was perfectly lined up with the bottom floors (below the impact) and let's just say that all of the affected floors from the impact area...were completely devastated...no wait, let's just do this... Let's just hypothetically, remove the 8-10 floors that had some damage from impact.

I still find it utterly impossible for one building to collapse this way...let alone two...on the same day...within minutes of each other. Heck, WTC 1's upper mass was even half that of WTC 2, but that didn't seem to affect much.


It would have been tempting to throw Frank Greening's calculations at him, but instead I simplified matters:

Yes, that's what we're saying, give or take a few fractions of a second. Let's look at it more sensibly:

The floor trusses failed. A 4 inch thick, reinforced concrete slab began moving downwards at 10m/s-2 (ok, 9.8 but close enough). The total load of each floor plate has been calculated at something like 1300 to 1400 tonnes. This impacted on the next floor down and caused immediate shear failure of the joints. And so on.

Now the central core largely relied on these floors for lateral stability - think of the whole building as a big box girder or space frame - and they too go. Some sections survive for up to 15 seconds after the main collapse, but that's it.

You away and do a shear calculation on the above loading scenario and you'll realise that this is exactly what would happen. If you don't have the figures, then don't waste our time.

You will also recall 28th's comments regarding the vertical collapse of the core columns:

How are the core columns collapsing straight down? They are vertical to the ground...so for them to disappear in a downward collapse...they would need to telescope on themselves...magico presto.

To which I pointed out:

They fail at the joints and then tumble straight down, saving for any modest deflection on the way.


So, just to recap 28th: when are you going to respond to any of these points?
 

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