Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[RandFan]

Perverse or perverts?

They both work.

Pervert.

1.to affect with perversion.

It's all good.

 

[Tricky]

They both work.

Pervert.

1.to affect with perversion.

It's all good.

Lot of differences in the way they are used though. Pervese and perverted are both adjectives which have overlapping meanings, but "perverse" is more often used to refer to someone who has odd reasoning or motives, and "perverted" usually has sexual overtones.

 

[BPScooter]

I'm still interested in the difference between a-theism and a-gnosticism. I'm definitely A in the gnostic sense. I don't know too much of anything, other than what I've learned. A in the theistic sense just drives me back to agnostic. Can't know, may never learn, can't say, etc.

Dealing with the theists teaches a few lessons, especially with regards to science, our children, the future of the world. Theistic views seem out of touch with man's worldly present and future. But I can't or won't say that there is, as a certain fact, a lack of God or Nature's Way or whatever. My humble view of mankind is such that we're just too poorly developed. Our brains can't compute the miilions and billions involved. Maybe Q is the overlord, after all, and we're just waiting for Jean-luc.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Mr Clingford
God wasn’t really giving up anything. God already knew the outcome and even came back from the dead, not much sacrifice. The saying should be: god so loved the world that he loaded his (son’s) life for a couple of days…

In the sense that Jesus was alive and then allowed himself to be captured and executed he 'gave up his life'. Yes, he did come back from the dead but that doesn't change the act. I agree that there are problems with the idea of sacrifice but you used the term 'sacrifice', not me!

For me, the whole of Jesus's life is important, not just his death, the idea of the uniting of the human and the divine in the life of Jesus. Through Jesus God shares human griefs and sorrows. Jesus is not paying any penalty, appeasing God's wrath, but God in Jesus is overcoming evil with good. Eg, not trying to defeat violence with more violence but with love. In Jesus God is taking responsibility for his universe.

I've not thought this through a great deal but the above sounds more like a loving God than angry God who demands punishment.

 

[Tricky]

In the sense that Jesus was alive and then allowed himself to be captured and executed he 'gave up his life'. Yes, he did come back from the dead but that doesn't change the act. I agree that there are problems with the idea of sacrifice but you used the term 'sacrifice', not me!

Though he didn't try to escape capture, Jesus didn't exactly behave like a man wanting to be executed either. He could have said to Pilate, "Yep, I'm God, and I've come to unite the tribes of Israel." As it was, he kind of hemmed and hawed. Or so it seems from the accounts recalled many years later.

For me, the whole of Jesus's life is important, not just his death, the idea of the uniting of the human and the divine in the life of Jesus.

That's an interesting point. We don't hear much about Jesus's life except the birth and the last three years or so. How did carpentry train him to be God? How did he handle puberty? Was he any good at sports? Did he belong to a gang?

And how in the name of... well... you know... did he have such a celebrated birth, being hailed as a king and such, yet manage to escape into obscurity for so many years? Was it because paparazzi hadn't appeared on the scene yet?

Through Jesus God shares human griefs and sorrows. Jesus is not paying any penalty, appeasing God's wrath, but God in Jesus is overcoming evil with good. e.g., not trying to defeat violence with more violence but with love. In Jesus God is taking responsibility for his universe.

Well, it was about time. But God could have taken responsibility at any point. He could have (and should have) done it from day one. And he could have done it worldwide, sending his kids to various parts of the globe so it didn't take more than a thousand years for lots of people to even hear about Jesus. No, this just doesn't make any sense at all. I don't want a God who is such an incompetent planner.

I've not thought this through a great deal but the above sounds more like a loving God than angry God who demands punishment.

Loving, perhaps, at least post JC, but not particularly organized. Did his day-timer look like this:
33AD - Good Friday: Kill son and change rules for getting into heaven.

 

[Paulhoff]

And why didn't Jesus go to North and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, Hawaii, India, etc etc.

Paul

 

[Darth Rotor]

And why didn't Jesus go to North and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, Hawaii, India, etc etc.

Paul

Airlines hadn't been invented?

You and I don't know that he didn't, though it's the way to bet.

See the previous post mentioning the birth, the escape from slaughter of the innocents, and the last three years. A 28 year gap.

That was time to do some traveling. Of course, this idea takes us into the old deal of Romans era sailing ships across the Atlantic, and back, and not leaving a records. Lateen rigging is reported to be 2000 years old, though square rigging was common as well in those days. Quetazcoatl: did he speak Aramaic?

This unknown allows for plenty of speculation about where Amerinds got some of their legends that are in such harmony with legends of the Levant.

Fun stuff to consider, no one wrote it down.

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

You and I don't know that he didn't, though it's the way to bet.

DR

More magical thinking?

Paul

 

[joobz]

More magical thinking?

Paul

Hey, you don't give the plot away in the first book.
You save it for the sequel.

that explains mormonism....right?

 

[Tanstaafl]

And why didn't Jesus go to North and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, Hawaii, India, etc etc.

Okay, I'm just waiting for RandFan to answer this, at least as far as North America is concerned...

 

[Paulhoff]

Hey, you don't give the plot away in the first book.
You save it for the sequel.

that explains mormonism....right?

There's a plot?

A kid could write it. Have only two people in the world, they have two sons, and when it comes to making more people, you just do by having them over the hill.

Paul



Anyone can write that Sh-t.

 

[Roadtoad]

I'll take a child like faith anyday over the skeptism that is ripping people off!

It says in Luke 10:21-22... At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Simple faith like a child is what I thank God for.

Skepticism is ripping people off? How, Kathy?

Now would be the time to present evidence which would back this statement up, because my experience has been the EXACT OPPOSITE. If anything, insisting on evidence has truly set me free. And that, dear woman, is being child-like, not childish.

 

[boojum]

See the previous post mentioning the birth, the escape from slaughter of the innocents, and the last three years. A 28 year gap.

John Prine has a fairly interesting song called Jesus: The Missing Years. In the introduction to one live version of it he says (quoting from memory here):

"...one of the most controversial and influential figures in the history of mankind and nobody knows where he was for 28 years. Me and a waitress snuck away for a fishing trip one weekend, and, by the time we got back to town, everybody knew where we were..."

 

[Ossai]

Mr Clingford

In the sense that Jesus was alive and then allowed himself to be captured and executed he 'gave up his life'. Yes, he did come back from the dead but that doesn't change the act.

No, if you give up something you don’t expect it back. Generally giving up something with the knowledge that you will get it back is called a loan. Jesus loaned his life for a couple of days.

I agree that there are problems with the idea of sacrifice but you used the term 'sacrifice', not me!

Actually I was using sacrifice because it is easier to type that ‘…so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son…’

…but God in Jesus is overcoming evil with good.

By paying a penalty to appease god’s wrath


Darth Rotor

See the previous post mentioning the birth, the escape from slaughter of the innocents, and the last three years. A 28 year gap.

Actually the escape from the slaughter brings up another interesting timing contradiction.

This unknown allows for plenty of speculation about where Amerinds got some of their legends that are in such harmony with legends of the Levant.

Source.

Ossai

 

[Tricky]

Actually the escape from the slaughter brings up another interesting timing contradiction.

Yeah, did I miss something or are there two Herods? There's the one that died in 4 BC (which is how they date Christ's birth) and the one who mocks Jesus as he's about to be sent to be crucified. I never heard of Herod I and II or anything like that.

 

[Paulhoff]

How does a so-called true god die, and why would Jesus ask if his so-called father god had forsaken him, wasn’t he in on the plot.

Also, why did it take so many years for all this to be written down about his life? Just sounds like a lot of years of PR work to get the story right to work for the masses, but story doesn’t work for everyone, does it.

Also the missing 28 years, maybe the long wait to write it down was so that by the time they did almost all people who where around back then would be dead and or wouldn’t remember the truth.

Paul

 

[boojum]

This "28 years" we're using is wrong, BTW. Remember we've got JC impressin' the priests in the temple at age 12, so it's an 18 year gap, not a 28 year gap. Yeah, that'll be easier to explain, right?

 

[Paulhoff]

In 28 years there should be a lot more to write about then just "the priests in the temple" if he is such a big part of the NT. Still sounds like something they would like to forget.

Paul

 

[Mr Clingford]

By paying a penalty to appease god’s wrath

I do not understand - are you calling me a liar? I say that some Christians believe Jesus did not die to appease any angry God and then you say that he did. Perhaps I have misunderstood and God has told you that that was the reason?

 

[Darth Rotor]

John Prine has a fairly interesting song called Jesus: The Missing Years. In the introduction to one live version of it he says (quoting from memory here):

"...one of the most controversial and influential figures in the history of mankind and nobody knows where he was for 28 years. Me and a waitress snuck away for a fishing trip one weekend, and, by the time we got back to town, everybody knew where we were..."

He didn't become the most controversial and inflluential until well after the 28 year gap. Perhaps him being a man of mystery was part of the appeal that made him so popular, thus followed, thus a threat, thus crucified.

*Austin Powers voice*

Messiah, baby!

DR