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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Well Ray, I guess you missed Jay Ingram's interview on Discovery Canada's Daily Planet with bovine fecal matter artiste and sasquatch super-sleuth Tom Biscardi last week. Now this man, see, he had gadgets and technology and the like, not to mention some figures and even a few numbers on top of that. 3500 continent-wide and burying their dead and you think you'll just what, come around a bend in the river and pull a Patty? Pfff. This man has encountered a bigfoot no less than 6 times, in his peripheral vision even! Don't even get me started on the hair that he had looked at by some guy. What's that Jay? You'll have it sent to the University of Alberta for lab testing at you're expense? Well, uh, sure! You got it. Just keep in mind that you're going to have tough time with the, erm, contamination from all the handling. So Ray, what do and your scoftic cronies have to say about them apples?
 
So Ray, what do and your scoftic cronies have to say about them apples?

I'd say those apples smell like they're from the south end of a northbound bull. :D

To keep informed one should read as much as possible.
Read Green.
Read Krantz.
Read Meldrum.
Read Coleman.
Read Dahinden.
Read Bindernagel.
Read Frankfurt.
Read Daegling.
Read Sagan.
Read Shermer
Read Schick.
Read Gardner.
Read Park.
Read Pinker.
Read Whyte.
Read McInerny.
Read, read, read.

Never stop reading. Never stop learning. Never stop questioning.

RayG
 
....First we agree Savage's gorilla description predates Du Chaillu's travles and books. Have you checked my link to Grove's paper? I know reading that PDF can literally be a pain in the neck if you don't rotate the text counterclockwise.

However, it provides a very nice account on how we knew about the genus. It says Savage's discovery was published "without fanfarre, without fuss of any kind". The only "fusses" it's been involved were the famous Huxley x Owen debates (that culminated in Huxley's 1867 publication) and Matschie's embroglios.

Actually, the fuss began with Du Chaillu's publication of "Explorations and Adventures in Equatorial Africa; with Accounts of the Manners and Cus- [p. 283] toms of the People, and of the Chase of the Gorilla, Crocodile, Leopard, Elephant, Hippopotamus, and other Animals", by Paul B. Du Chaillu, with Map and Illustrations. Harper & Bros., 1861.

The silliness intensified with the debates between Owen and Darwin's hatchet man Huxley. The issue has grown beyond Scopes into ID vrs. "science".

It's all the epitome of stupidity; ideology gone wild.

Thus, there was no major controversy, no skeptcism , etc. from mainstream science regarding the discovery of gorillas.

There was major controversy within mainstream science (evolution), and the gorilla was part of it, and there was wild skepticism from the American public regarding everything Du Chaillu, including the discovery of the gorilla.

Du Chaillu's problems happened after the genus was described.

Because of the same denialist attitudes that we see today with sasquatchery.

And note that even your link does points that DuChaillu's 1861 book was well-received by the Royal Geographical Society.

That's because they were in the possession of the gorilla carcasses Du Chaillu brought out of Africa.

The article you linked indicates the reason for the bad reception had more to do with the way he wrote his account than with any mention to gorillas.

Just like the BS found on this very thread and forum regarding how Patterson and Gimlin "recorded" their accounts.

So, to sum up, there was no "poor reception" of the description of gorillas by science, as claimed.

Yes, there was, especially on the American side of the Atlantic, who weren't the recipients of the specimens.

Du Chaillu's book received flak, but not the description of the genus, made by Savage and Wyman years before its publication.

Yes, it did:

......The book was greeted with shouts of laughter and derision from one end of the American continent to the other. Mr and Mrs and Miss Gorilla was the common jest, and the name Du Chaillu became a byword for a fanciful storyteller......

The analogy with bigfoot's reception by mainstream science is not valid. Continue using this analogy by your own risk.

What's the threat all about?

Getting sore, Mr. BadAss Scientist?
 
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Nice wriggle. Completely missing my point. I was refering to the post that I replied to. You were a bit quiet there, even though you decided to pull me up.:D

Then you've not actually read through the threads on this board that pertain to bigfoot. As we used to say up north, 'get some snow on your boots.' :cool:
No, I haven't read every page on this thread. I have only responded in two sasquatch threads here. I haven't seen any others. I don't see the point in reading 6 month or year old posts. I have only just joined remember? Been here a couple weeks or so. I have not encountered any real childish name calling since the short time I have been here. You seriously want me to go back and read every single post in this 123 page thread? How much time do you think I have???

If you're ok with kindergarten behavior, good for you.
Who said I am ok with it??? I said I haven't pulled anyone up over it because I haven't really seen it yet. I guess the 'Fuddster' jibes to Huntster would be about the most I have seen, but nobody else seems to be bothered about pulling the offending party up on them so why should I, as a newbie, have the temerity to do so??
 
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Nice wriggle. Completely missing my point. I was refering to the post that I replied to. You were a bit quiet there, even though you decided to pull me up.:D

No, I haven't read every page on this thread. I have only responded in two sasquatch threads here. I haven't seen any others. I don't see the point in reading 6 month or year old posts. I have only just joined remember? Been here a couple weeks or so. I have not encountered any real childish name calling since the short time I have been here. You seriously want me to go back and read every single post in this 123 page thread? How much time do you think I have???

Who said I am ok with it??? I said I haven't pulled anyone up over it because I haven't really seen it yet. I guess the 'Fuddster' jibes to Huntster would be about the most I have seen, but nobody else seems to be bothered about pulling the offending party up on them so why should I, as a newbie, have the temerity to do so??
carcharodon, while admittedly reading through every post of just this thread would be an exercise in will power I can assure you that any line of thought or reasoning you could come up with as compelling evidence in support of the existence of sasquatches has at least already at least once been addressed, discussed evenly and thoroughly, then dissected and shown it's inherit flaws. Take that as a coming from a person who first came here with a mind to pants a few scoftics in regards to bigfoot and hasn't slammed the door on it's possibility.

Spend enough time here and you'll find many people you'd define as skeptics have not totally shut the door and would be more than pleased to have something like bigfoot roaming around. However, while the door is not shut they can quickly tell you that at best it is only slightly ajar and that is all the current evidence will afford and that's being generous. I have many times argued against those who would deny that there is evidence concerning sasquatches possible existence but in the end you're just never going to beat the fact that quantity will never beat or exceed quality.

You wanna say that some tools have been making a pretty sloppy and desperate attempt to show the PGF a hoax, fair enough. That doesn't mean that it's not suspect. Fact is that there is not a single piece of purported bigfoot evidence that remains compelling after careful unbiased scrutiny and all we've ever had is more of the same. Unfortunately every day that passes is another in which the big guys become less likely and to me that sucks but it's true. Now while I remain precariously on the fence in regards to BF I have made a conscious decision to do so against the inclination of the facts and I think if you gave a truly unbiased examination to those facts that's the best you can hope for.

For now, here's a suggestion. You make a list of reasons why YOU believe BF may be real and post them (please don't be lame and post some BFF 'another 33 reasons why bigfoot might exist' list). Pretty quick you'll get more than enough links pertaining to them and if your not satisfied that they've been addressed properly then feel free to bring them up. Cheers.
 
carcharodon, while admittedly reading through every post of just this thread would be an exercise in will power I can assure you that any line of thought or reasoning you could come up with as compelling evidence in support of the existence of sasquatches has at least already at least once been addressed, discussed evenly and thoroughly, then dissected and shown it's inherit flaws. Take that as a coming from a person who first came here with a mind to pants a few scoftics in regards to bigfoot and hasn't slammed the door on it's possibility.

Spend enough time here and you'll find many people you'd define as skeptics have not totally shut the door and would be more than pleased to have something like bigfoot roaming around. However, while the door is not shut they can quickly tell you that at best it is only slightly ajar and that is all the current evidence will afford and that's being generous. I have many times argued against those who would deny that there is evidence concerning sasquatches possible existence but in the end you're just never going to beat the fact that quantity will never beat or exceed quality.

You wanna say that some tools have been making a pretty sloppy and desperate attempt to show the PGF a hoax, fair enough. That doesn't mean that it's not suspect. Fact is that there is not a single piece of purported bigfoot evidence that remains compelling after careful unbiased scrutiny and all we've ever had is more of the same. Unfortunately every day that passes is another in which the big guys become less likely and to me that sucks but it's true. Now while I remain precariously on the fence in regards to BF I have made a conscious decision to do so against the inclination of the facts and I think if you gave a truly unbiased examination to those facts that's the best you can hope for.

For now, here's a suggestion. You make a list of reasons why YOU believe BF may be real and post them (please don't be lame and post some BFF 'another 33 reasons why bigfoot might exist' list). Pretty quick you'll get more than enough links pertaining to them and if your not satisfied that they've been addressed properly then feel free to bring them up. Cheers.

Not being disrespectful to you because you appear to be on the level but what has any of that got to do with my post to Ray G which you quoted in full? :DI was talking to Ray G about his apparant inconsistencies in being pedantic and or the subject of pulling people up (or not) for childish name calling.

However, I will play along with you seeing as you asked in a nice enough manner. I could give you lots of reasons why I am of the opinion that sasquatch exists but I don't feel the need why I have to go to great lengths (it would take me all day) so I'll just stick to one, not neccesarily the main, reason, seeing as this is what the thread in question is about...............the PGF looks and moves like a real animal to me and not like any man in a suit I have ever seen in either real life or in any footage. I call it using my mark one eyeball. I have no reason to have a psychological belief or a deep rooted need to want the sasquatch to exist. No skin off my nose if it turned out they don't. It won't affect me in my everyday life, save for coming to the odd message board or two. It won't stop me from popping down to the shop and buying a loaf of bread etc etc. The evidence for existance of sasquatch persuades me that they are out there and as a person who is fairly world travelled I long ago came to the conclusion that there are still mysteries in this world which cannot be explained away. I have been in many remote and rugged areas and it makes me humble and it makes me realise how small I as a human being am. I see no reason not to believe there are many many places that are still relatively untouched, relatively unvisited, and relatively untraversable and rugged enough to host an animal like sasquatch, particularly when those places do have a consistent history of these animals being reported and when we do have some evidence that while not 100% proven (nor may I add 100% refuted) is very very interesting.

Fact is that there is not a single piece of purported bigfoot evidence that remains compelling after careful unbiased scrutiny
That is merely your opinion though. It's not a matter of fact. There are indeed persons unbiased who HAVE found some of the purported sasquatch evidence to be compelling. You can in no way speak for everyone as if it is an established fact because it isn't, just as sasquatch itself isn't an established fact. You should be aware that many of the people NOW biased towards the possibilily/probability of sasquatch were not always that way inclined. Many were unbiased to begin with until the evidence they examined changed their opinions. In actual fact, in some case these people were biased AGAINST the possibility/probability of sasquatch. Having the opinion that sasquatch exists is not something you are born with or something you inherit or something that is drummed into you since a child etc etc. There are reasons why people come around to having the opinion that these animals are real. Personally I do not consider the idea of sasquatch and the reasons why many people are convinced they exist to be far fetched and wacky at all. I can't help having that attitude, in the same way that many out and out skeptics can't help having the attitude that the idea is far fetched. My idea of far fetched is somebody talking to a dead person and the dead person responding.:eek:
 
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Photographs of casts. Some of which, such as the one labelled "C", look very suspect to me.

Those aren't his casts, are they? "C-cast of a 19-inch-long track from southern Ontario (1977)"


"Am I the only one who thinks it looks like some poorly-carved wood foot? Check the toes' shapes, among other things. He may have been fooled by a hoaxer.

Regarding the prints he found? Or that particular cast?

"In 1988, my wife and I found several sasquatch tracks in good condition in the mountains not far from our home on Vancouver Island. Plaster casts which we made from these tracks provided the first tangible evidence I encountered for the existence of the sasquatch. Wildlife biologists such as myself regularly depend on tracks and other wildlife sign as evidence for the presence of bears, deer, wolves, and other mammals, recognizing that tracks constitute a more reliable and persistent record of the presence of a mammal species in an area than a fleeting glimpse of the animal itself."

http://www.bigfootbiologist.org/page3.html

What hoaxer would know where they were going to be?
 
carcharodon, while admittedly reading through every post of just this thread would be an exercise in will power I can assure you that any line of thought or reasoning you could come up with as compelling evidence in support of the existence of sasquatches has at least already at least once been addressed, discussed evenly and thoroughly, then dissected and shown it's inherit flaws. Take that as a coming from a person who first came here with a mind to pants a few scoftics in regards to bigfoot and hasn't slammed the door on it's possibility.

I've not only read most of the thread, I debated on it and most of the others, consistantly for nine months.

I've seen no "inherit flaws" (sic). I have seen bunch of scoftics grabbing at every straw, from a line in a photo to Roger failing to return the camera on time (a poster even got that screwed up). I've seen a great deal of misinformation and no retractions outside of an apology for a misquote (unless I missed something).

All the claims of hoaxing, "fishiness" and misidentification I've seen have been debunked.

There is ongoing research into the phenomenon. Don't expect to find the results in an Internet debate just yet.
 
Actually, the fuss began with Du Chaillu's publication of "Explorations and Adventures in Equatorial Africa; with Accounts of the Manners and Cus- [p. 283] toms of the People, and of the Chase of the Gorilla, Crocodile, Leopard, Elephant, Hippopotamus, and other Animals", by Paul B. Du Chaillu, with Map and Illustrations. Harper & Bros., 1861.
Again, have you read Groves' paper?

Here's the link again:
http://arts.anu.edu.au/grovco/Gorilla Biology.pdf

Its very relevant to the "gorilla" discussion, since its about the evolution of its taxonomy. Its clearly stated that there was no fuss about their presentation to "mainstream science" in 1847. No refutation, no skeptcism, no BS, nothing. Oh, BTW, no mention to Du Chaillu ( who returned to New Your in 1859 and published his book 1861) as a major player in the controversies that followed, that were actually related to evolution and the number of gorilla species, and not to the definition of the genus.

This not to say he faced no problems. This is merely to say the problems he faced were not actually related to the discovery of gorillas per se. We'll talk about it a bit later.

The silliness intensified with the debates between Owen and Darwin's hatchet man Huxley. The issue has grown beyond Scopes into ID vrs. "science".

It's all the epitome of stupidity; ideology gone wild.
Incorrect. Gorillas were involved in the evolution discussion because it was the study of their brains that allowed Huxley to demonstrate Owen was wrong in his claim that humans brains were completely unique in structure. This controversy, again, happened years after the gorilla genus was described. The "presentation" of the species was smooth. Please, read Groves.

On a sideline, Owen and Matschie (some of the anti-evolution hatchet men) got their @sses kicked, and science progressed, religion-based theories were dumped, and religion "thanks to god" lost a lot of influence on science. But I fail to see how this is relevant to the topic.

There was major controversy within mainstream science (evolution), and the gorilla was part of it, and there was wild skepticism from the American public regarding everything Du Chaillu, including the discovery of the gorilla.
See above and below.
BTW, what was the skepticism source? The "American public" or "mainstream science"?

Because of the same denialist attitudes that we see today with sasquatchery.
I'll write again: What you call "denialist attitudes" are triggered by the weakness of the presented evidence, the constant involvment with hoaxes, and the attitudes of some bigfoot buffs when it comes to propper data handling.

Its a completely different situation from the gorilla description (that caused no fuss) and the posterior evolution x steady state debate. The analogy you are making is not valid.

That's because they were in the possession of the gorilla carcasses Du Chaillu brought out of Africa.

Yes, there was, especially on the American side of the Atlantic, who weren't the recipients of the specimens.
Huntster, read Groves.
The genus was presented by Wyman at the Proceedings of the Boston Society of Natural History, after Savage obtained the specimens in Africa specimens and made description of them. Wyman also presented gorilla bones at the presentation. Thus, specimens were avaliable at USA before the Du Chaillu published his book. Savage himself brought specimens to USA that nowdays are at Harvard's Museum of Comparative Zoology. Owen's 1948 publication was also based in specimens provided by Savage. These specimens can nowdays be found at the Natural History Museu of London, former British Museum (Natural History). See? Specimens at both sides of the Atlantic and the species were already known to science before Du Chaillu started his jorney to Africa in 1856.

Lets review some key conclusions:

-There was no controversy regarding the existence of gorillas by the time the genus was presented to science.

-There was controversy regarding the evidence provided by study of gorilla's brains that indicated the human brain is not as unique as claimed by Owen. The controversy, thus, was related to the evolution debate, and not to the existence or not of gorillas.

Du Chaillu's book reception was not because he said gorillas exist, since the species were already known to science. The very link you provided (http://www.erblist.com/erbmania/duchaillu.html) indicates clearly the reason for the reception was:

Du Chaillu was only 26 when his first book was published. He was unable to answer satisfactorily the storm [p. 284] of questions hurled at him; consequently nobody believed him, except Harper and Brothers in the United States and the Royal Geographical Society in England, both of whom valiantly and vigorously defended his truthfulness.

He wrote not only about gorillas, he also wrote about
fierce cannibal tribes, the Fans, who filed their teeth to keep them sharp; of the ravages of the Baskouay ants, which marched in dense columns miles in length, and who were marshalled by officers and generals; of hunting elephants with pitfalls; of a new variety of snake, less than four feet long and six and eight inches thick, which lies in the open places in the woods and whose bite is instantaneous death, and of many other equally wonderful sights.

Cool guy, eh?
Aniway, to say he endured severe critics because he wrote about gorillas is not correct (IMHO its also unfair to his book, given the number of different subjects he touched). The main reason for the reception seems to have been the large amount of little known subjects he wrote about and his failure to counter the critics. It was not because he was the first to describe and present gorillas to science.

Someone picked gorillas to mock him. This person could have chosen cannibals, ants, snakes, etc.

What's the threat all about?

Getting sore, Mr. BadAss Scientist?
It was not a threat. It was a fair warning.

Let me make it -again- more clear: Continue presenting information, arguments and reasonings that will not provide any backing to the claim and are mistaken (such as the comparsion in question as well as the "unidentified" DNA, coelacanth, Architeuthis and "the negatives were not tampered" lines) and all you will keep getting will be the "those folks don't have a clue" reaction.

Got it now, Mr. BadAss Hunter?
 
Not being disrespectful to you because you appear to be on the level but what has any of that got to do with my post to Ray G which you quoted in full? :DI was talking to Ray G about his apparant inconsistencies in being pedantic and or the subject of pulling people up (or not) for childish name calling.
No disrespect taken. You'll find when it comes to the BF threads (also the reason I joined) I'm the resident poseur, I fall somewhere between Ray G and Huntster. I didn't intend to comment on your discussion with Ray about name calling (trust me, if the worst name calling you've seen in BF threads is Mad Hom's 'Fuddster' term of endearment then purely for entertainment purposes, by all means, go back a bit. Thaiboxerken had some gold, I'm sure I've tossed a few goodies myself.) Rather, I was addressing you as a recent member of the board, a proponent for sasquatch existence, and specifically your comments on becoming familiar with the ongoing discussion here.

Don't get me wrong, nobody demands you to read every post in every BF thread before joining the discussion though certainly as a proponent you should definitely have a look at some of the other threads than the 2 your posting in. There's some good stuff to be found.
I could give you lots of reasons why I am of the opinion that sasquatch exists but I don't feel the need why I have to go to great lengths (it would take me all day) so I'll just stick to one, not neccesarily the main, reason, seeing as this is what the thread in question is about...............the PGF looks and moves like a real animal to me and not like any man in a suit I have ever seen in either real life or in any footage.
Well, I didn't ask you to go to great lengths but you gave one that's been a biggie for many. I'm definitely one of the few here that has a very hard time seeing anything other than a living animal but I deal with that in terms pf perception. Whether or not the PGF is duplicable has been discussed at great length in this thread and others and there's some really surprising stuff for any who would think there isn't any chance.
I see no reason not to believe there are many many places that are still relatively untouched, relatively unvisited, and relatively untraversable and rugged enough to host an animal like sasquatch, particularly when those places do have a consistent history of these animals being reported and when we do have some evidence that while not 100% proven (nor may I add 100% refuted) is very very interesting.
Which is fine and well if you can reconcile it with the fact that reports consistently come in from all over the continent in areas that could hardly be called wild or remote. I'm sure you've considered that before so it begs the question of how you weigh validity of anecdotal evidence. I'm also not sure how a place remains relatively untouched, unvisited, and untraversable yet consistently generates sasquatch reports. I'm curious as to what insights and benefit in understanding any of the not 100% proven/refuted evidence has provided us concerning bigfoot and any results they may have produced in efforts to detect them.
That is merely your opinion though. It's not a matter of fact. There are indeed persons unbiased who HAVE found some of the purported sasquatch evidence to be compelling. snip...
And yet we can't deny for Krantz, Meldrum, Chilcutt, Bindernagel's, etc development of interest after examining purported evidence we're still essentially nowhere. And I'm sure you'll agree none of them are immune to being fooled.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be contradictory and I'm usually a little closer to your side of things but I'm just now trying to be a bit more realistic in how we approach the phenomena of bigfoot because let's face it, we're talking about a 6-9 ft bipedal ape/hominid being reported from Alaska to New Zealand, Florida to central Africa.
 
I've not only read most of the thread, I debated on it and most of the others, consistantly for nine months.
If anything I admire your, like Huntster's, tenacity here, LAL. At first I was surprised to see you posting here when I came over from lurking at the BFF.
I've seen no "inherit flaws" (sic). I have seen bunch of scoftics grabbing at every straw, from a line in a photo to Roger failing to return the camera on time (a poster even got that screwed up). I've seen a great deal of misinformation and no retractions outside of an apology for a misquote (unless I missed something).

All the claims of hoaxing, "fishiness" and misidentification I've seen have been debunked.
Certainly this is not quite an accurate assessment. No doubt there's been some hacks and zipper spotters and less than stellar observations but I would say that if all you see is yourself surrounded by scoftics than I'd say you suffer equally from the ignorance you rally against.
There is ongoing research into the phenomenon. Don't expect to find the results in an Internet debate just yet.
Yet a sense of relief or reassurance eludes me. Tell me, LAL, beyond an internet debate where do you think we stand now in ongoing research and the effort to identify sasquatches? I ask that in earnest.
 
Well Ray, I guess you missed Jay Ingram's interview on Discovery Canada's Daily Planet with bovine fecal matter artiste and sasquatch super-sleuth Tom Biscardi last week.

What makes you think anyone in the so-called Bigfoot community takes Biscardi seriously? He as much of an embarrassment as Jon-Erik Beckjord. No reputable researcher wants anything to do with either of them.

Biscardi may have desecrated an Indian burial recently. Some are up in arms about that.
 
If anything I admire your, like Huntster's, tenacity here, LAL. At first I was surprised to see you posting here when I came over from lurking at the BFF.

I was here first, i.e., before Huntster. I was on BFF for awhile before that and I found BFF during a debate on an AOL board.

Certainly this is not quite an accurate assessment. No doubt there's been some hacks and zipper spotters and less than stellar observations but I would say that if all you see is yourself surrounded by scoftics than I'd say you suffer equally from the ignorance you rally against.

Read the posts when I first came on. Proponents are "woos", "wackos" and "credulloids".

I use Roger Knights' term "scoftic" in the sense I think he means it, to denote one who dismisses this out of hand without looking at the evidence. Sceptics here seem to look at it, but fail to understand it, IMO. Perhaps that's because the concentration on the PGF, an incomplete look at the Skookum Cast (did you see the "official" thread on BFF?) and a few trackways makes it appear there's not much else. Proponents think there's more than enough evidence to warrant a full investigation. Ciochon's openly afraid it'll cut into his grant money.

Yet a sense of relief or reassurance eludes me. Tell me, LAL, beyond an internet debate where do you think we stand now in ongoing research and the effort to identify sasquatches? I ask that in earnest.

My money's on a southern group bringing in the confirmation, but I'd rather it be from the North American Ape Project or Rick Noll's efforts in his research area.

It's a matter of time, IMO.
 
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What makes you think anyone in the so-called Bigfoot community takes Biscardi seriously? He as much of an embarrassment as Jon-Erik Beckjord. No reputable researcher wants anything to do with either of them.

Biscardi may have desecrated an Indian burial recently. Some are up in arms about that.
I don't think so at all. But like Cedrip he certainly counts himself among those who are in earnest conducting research. No matter where you stand though when twits like that speak up and get the attention they desperately crave I would hope they are counted among the twits.

However, if I were to get up in arms about anything now it would be that for all that we are supposed to be learning of these creatures the results we are getting are bupkis for identifying an animal reported from all over the world. Come on, we're talking darkest Africa to highest Himalaya, swampiest Everglades to bone dry Australian outback and yet to their great fortune not one being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Good news for Cedrip, bad news for Meldrum, and not quite noteworthy for most in between.
 
I was here first, i.e., before Huntster. I was on BFF for awhile before that and I found BFF during a debate on an AOL board.
Come now, if it comes down to a popularity contest it's going to be Huntster's grumpy old man versus your feminine wiles and you know cantankerity is a commodity 'round these parts.:D
Read the posts when I first came on. Proponents are "woos", "wackos" and "credulloids".

I use Roger Knights' term "scoftic" in the sense I think he means it, to denote one who dismisses this out of hand without looking at the evidence. Sceptics here seem to look at it, but fail to understand it, IMO.
Stubbourness is a two-way street.
My money's on a southern group bringing in the confirmation, but I'd rather it be from the North American Ape Project or Rick Noll's efforts in his research area.

It's a matter of time, IMO.
Well, if it's cold, hard cash on the line mines on Noll, like Krantz, Green, Dahinden, and Byrne likely never seeing the object of his obsession. That's bleak and to me sad but still a matter of time indeed.
 
Well, if no one can tell me why Napier could not see Patty's feet, it leaves me no worse off than I was...

I'll have to conclude that Napier was not loking at the PGF that I can currently see. I have long thought that the PGF we see today is not the same one shown early on, and Napier's comment only serves to strenghthen my belief.

Qualified scientists who saw the PGF when it was new, thought Patty was human in gait and proportion.

Why are folks today trying to say she's neither?

The IM index, being useless in this case, cannot be the reason.

The film quality certainly cannot have improved, despite such claims.

Again I can only conclude that they weren't looking at the same film.

It's a shame, really.
 
New LA Times article on Jeff Meldrum

This looks like an interview done after the earlier AP article.

An affable father of six sons, with a mop of brown hair and a bushy gray mustache, the 48-year-old Meldrum declines to say whether he believes Sasquatch exists. But he adds that based on the evidence he has gathered over the last decade, he thinks the likely answer is yes.

I thought Meldrum already believed that Bigfoot exists. Hasn't he said that? Is he playing a game by saying that "I won't say that I believe", but that "the evidence shows that the creature does exist"?
 
Well, if no one can tell me why Napier could not see Patty's feet, it leaves me no worse off than I was...

I think the insinuation is that Napier didn't have the means to zoom in on specific details as much as subsequent analysers have been able to. His equipment was more basic.

I'll have to conclude that Napier was not loking at the PGF that I can currently see. I have long thought that the PGF we see today is not the same one shown early on, and Napier's comment only serves to strenghthen my belief.
No, he was looking at the same footage, he just wasn't looking enough, or maybe he wasn't able to. There is much that he missed.

Qualified scientists who saw the PGF when it was new, thought Patty was human in gait and proportion.
Shows how wrong they were then. Patty clearly isn't. I am not aware that any detailed analysis was carried out when the film was new. As far as I can gather, the detractors took a quick look and wrote it off without further analysis. It wasn't until the early 1970s when Dahinden took the footage to Russia and England that it was examined more thoroughly and wasn't written off. In fact, much of which was determined ended up backing it's authenticity.

The film quality certainly cannot have improved, despite such claims.
Again I can only conclude that they weren't looking at the same film.
Then you most probably conclude wrong. It is the equipment used to study the footage which has changed greatly, not the footage itself.
 
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No disrespect taken. You'll find when it comes to the BF threads (also the reason I joined) I'm the resident poseur, I fall somewhere between Ray G and Huntster. I didn't intend to comment on your discussion with Ray about name calling (trust me, if the worst name calling you've seen in BF threads is Mad Hom's 'Fuddster' term of endearment then purely for entertainment purposes, by all means, go back a bit. Thaiboxerken had some gold, I'm sure I've tossed a few goodies myself.) Rather, I was addressing you as a recent member of the board, a proponent for sasquatch existence, and specifically your comments on becoming familiar with the ongoing discussion here.

Don't get me wrong, nobody demands you to read every post in every BF thread before joining the discussion though certainly as a proponent you should definitely have a look at some of the other threads than the 2 your posting in. There's some good stuff to be found.

Thanks. While I'm new here I am certainly not new to the whole sasquatch skeptic v proponets debates. LAL has pointed out that there is nothing which has been discussed here that hasn't been discussed elsewhere, nor with any different results so I'm sure what I will read here in old posts won't be too much different to what has gone before. In other words there is no final agreement and settlement to be found on both sides.:D


Well, I didn't ask you to go to great lengths but you gave one that's been a biggie for many. I'm definitely one of the few here that has a very hard time seeing anything other than a living animal but I deal with that in terms pf perception. Whether or not the PGF is duplicable has been discussed at great length in this thread and others and there's some really surprising stuff for any who would think there isn't any chance.
I would be very surprised if anybody here came up with anything I haven't already encounteed before with regards to a duplication of the PGF. I have seen nothing worth considering so far. There was a suit maker on another forum who said it would be fairly easy to attempt, but after almost a year of saying what he would and could do, we ended up with nothing. Then he left (at least I think he left).

Which is fine and well if you can reconcile it with the fact that reports consistently come in from all over the continent in areas that could hardly be called wild or remote.
Thats if you accept them. I do not. I do have a problem with widespread reports of sasquatch over the entire U.S.A. I'm bothered by the fact that there is little even soft evidence from areas away from the PNW and I am also bothered by the fact that away from the PNW reports largely took off in the 1970s after sasquatch became a big media sensation. Yes, we do have some very old sensationalist ape man encounters from many different parts of the U.S but it does seem (to me at least) that sasquatch in it's modern incarnation springing up everythere over the U.S coincided with the huge explosion of media sasquatch in the 1970s. There were no John Greens, no Bob Titmuses, no Rene Dahindens and no Roger Pattersons (that I know of) in the east in the 1950s and 1960s were there???? What does that tell us? Surely if there were sasquatches everywhere it stands to reason that there would have been many more Greens and Pattersons spead all over the United States (Green being Canadian notwithstanding LOL.). With the PNW being a comparatively small area of the U.S.A it is not unreasonable to wonder why this small area has produced almost all of the recognised 'evidence' for saquatch and the 'evidence' that we all talk about. Seeing as the areas outside of the PNW must by now have far more investigators, field researchers and general sasquatch afficionados than inside the PNW, it's very strange that still almost everything we talk about centres on the PNW.

Not saying I refuse to accept the idea of sasquatch outside the PNW (because that would make me a scoftic). There are some areas I do find interesting. I'm not 100% convinced, but I do find them interesting. However, I will worry about the PNW/British Columbia and southeast Alaska first and concentrate on elsewhere later.

I do find it puzzling, perhaps impossible, that sasquatch is so widespread over almost every state. If sasquatch were so widespread that would make it a pretty abundant and successful species. Therefore there should be some concrete proof of their existance. There isn't. It is altogether 'neater' and more 'logical' to accept the idea of a shy, reclusive, relatively low in number, intelligent, bipedal apelike animal still managing to hang on in the rugged, largely remote swathes of land from Northern California up to Alsaka rather than over the entire U.S.A from Washington to New Jersey and all points in between.

I'm sure you've considered that before so it begs the question of how you weigh validity of anecdotal evidence.
I don't take too much stock in every report I hear about. I am more inclined to be more interested in reports which have been investigated and the witnesses interviewed. Nowadys in this internet world I'm even less ready to accept reports willy nilly.

I'm also not sure how a place remains relatively untouched, unvisited, and untraversable yet consistently generates sasquatch reports.
Well, I did write 'relatively', not completely. For example I would say the area around coastal BC near Bella Coola is relatively remote and largely untraversable yet it has a number of reports in and around it's periphary. You could say the same about southeast Alaska and the islands there. Likewise, there are areas in Oregon and Washington states with reports in areas which border relatively remote and rugged areas.

My opinion is that the number of reports divided by the number of local population and times by the ruggedness and wildness of the surrounding terrain is where you will find the most sasquatches. I.E, if south east Alaska and coastal central BC has a low human population but a high number (and long history) of sasquatch reports then it looks good.

Getting back to the terrain aspect, most people tend to not realise that even though hikers, campers, hunters etc are out in the wilds they never go too far from the beaten track. Almost all tend to stick to well beaten paths and trails while hunters rarely go too far from their parked vehicles. Even on horseback you are limited as to what you can traverse in really rugged terrain. Sometimes I don't think most people are aware just how limited the places you can travel are when you are in rugged, remote locations. Contrary to popular belief, these areas are not being trampled and traipsed over every square foot. There are plenty of vast rugged areas where nobody has ever set foot and are never likely to either. As somebody who has experienced just how vast and remote wilderness areas can be, it doesn't surprise me at all how something like a sasquatch can remain uncaptured and only seen sporadically..

I'm curious as to what insights and benefit in understanding any of the not 100% proven/refuted evidence has provided us concerning bigfoot
I think the idea of considering, for exmple, what fake feet can and can't do is of great benefit. The fake wooden feet the likes of Wallace carved clearly can't be responsible for some of the trackways found. Some of the trackways described and photographed seem to be beyond what a hoaxer with fake feet could achieve.

And yet we can't deny for Krantz, Meldrum, Chilcutt, Bindernagel's, etc development of interest after examining purported evidence we're still essentially nowhere. And I'm sure you'll agree none of them are immune to being fooled.
Quite so. I'm sure they can be (and have been)fooled occasionally. I know Krantz was. But for all of them to be fooled all of the time does stretch credulity don't you think? One would then wonder how on earth they got to their respective positions in the first place if they were/are all so dumb.
 
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New LA Times article on Jeff Meldrum

This looks like an interview done after the earlier AP article.

It looks like a rehash of the earlier article that made 185 papers at last count. The original was supposed to be an interview about the book. Meldrum has denied some of the "quotes". (AP didn't pick up Theo Stein's article on the Skookum Cast; the story never got out of Denver.)

At least it has him "popular" instead of "hulking" and "Sasquatch-like".

I thought Meldrum already believed that Bigfoot exists. Hasn't he said that? Is he playing a game by saying that "I won't say that I believe", but that "the evidence shows that the creature does exist"?

Oh, he's convinced, but the language of science is cautious.

"I believe it would be more incredible to dismiss all the assertions about Bigfoot as a series of hoaxes and ruses," he says with academic precision, "than it would be to at least entertain the possibility that an unrecognized large primate exists in North America."

That sounds like him. He said about the same thing on LMS.

He spent an entire chapter on this nonsense:

"Ray Wallace, a force behind the 1958 footprint discovery and a source of Bigfoot photographs over the years, famously confessed on his deathbed four years ago that the hulking creature once captured on film was really his wife dressed in a gorilla suit."

But here's a reporter perpetrating the same extreme distortion the Wallace story finally acquired.

There was no deathbed confession. His family "always knew" he faked the Crew tracks (but couldn't prove it) and, while Elna Wallace posed for fake souvenier photos, there's no way that diminutive lady was in the PGF.

They got their film deal, though.

With misinformation like this in print, I can almost see why the public tends to think it's all a hoax.
 
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