Fire, steel, and 911.

I've just posted two papers explaining the forces involved in the collapse, do you really think that 2 buildings each weighing 500,000+ tons wouldn't pulverize a significant amount of drywall, man made fibers, and concrete (etc etc etc) as it collapsed?

Sir,

I'm not sure what kind of logic you're trying to use...but, the floors came down from the top...so each of the "collapsing" floors didn't have the entire weight of the building bearing down on them. As I have stated...on one of the collapses we can clearly see the top floors above the impact points...completely topple over to the side...just after the collapse had begin...so at this point....each floor that we see exploding/collapsing - is basically the TOP floor of the structure at the time of its pulverization.

There is NO weight bearing down on them....it's like the top floor keeps disappearing...one by one...that's why I said it didn't really collapse...the floors are actually exploding in a downward sequence...and that's why the building can and DID "fall" faster than the speed of free fall or gravity...because actually...nothing is collapsing or falling really (besides the remains of the explosions) The floors are just being pulverized in a downward sequence that creates the illusion that the floors are collapsing down upon one another. Yes, it's like a CD, that no one has ever seen...because I MEAN...look at the mess it caused...no one would ever CD a steel-structure building that tall...and that's why they had to use a different technique...as oppose to WTC 7, which was a more classic CD.
 
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Sir,

I'm not sure what kind of logic you're trying to use...but, the floors came down from the top...so each of the "collapsing" floors didn't have the entire weight of the building bearing down on them. As I have stated...on one of the collapses we can clearly see the top floors above the impact points...completely topple over to the side...just after the collapse had begin...so at this point....each floor that we see exploding/collapsing - is basically the TOP floor of the structure at the time of its pulverization.

There is NO weight bearing down on them....it's like the top floor keeps disappearing...one by one...that's why I said it didn't really collapse...the floors are actually exploding in a downward sequence...and that's why the building can and DID "fall" faster than the speed of free fall or gravity...because actually...nothing is collapsing or falling really (besides the remains of the explosions) The floors are just being pulverized in a downward sequence that creates the illusion that the floors are collapsing down upon one another. Yes, it's like a CD, that no one has ever seen...because I MEAN...look at the mess it caused...no one would ever CD a steel-structure building that tall...and that's why they had to use a different technique...as oppose to WTC 7, which was a more classic CD.
Sir,

If the collapse was a controlled demolition why were the exterior columns gradually bowing and buckling prior to the collapse, clearly visible on the photographs of the tower? Doesn't this indicate that the collapse was a gradual process as the fire took hold? Then as the weight of the structure above the weakened area (plane impact zone) exceeded the strain energy capacity in the deforming structural members the global collapse started.

Also when you look at the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 (together) and do the math both towers collapsed at the correct time based on the impact point of the plane and the weight of the structure above the weakened area.

The towers weighed about 500,000 tons each and the first plane hit between the 94th and 98th floors. So a conservative estimate at the weight of floors above the weakened area is...

((500,000 / 110) * (110 - 98)) = 54,545.45 tons

The second plane hit between the 78th and 84th floors. So again a conservative estimate at the weight of floors above the weakened area is...

((500,000 / 110) * (110 - 84)) = 118,181.82 tons

Obviously I'm assuming the weight was distributed evenly but it doesn't really matter because I'm using the same calculations for both buildings and I'm also being conservative with my estimates.

So now we have an estimate of the weight above the weakened area it makes sense why the second tower hit collapsed first because the weakened area had to bear more than twice the weight of the weakened area on the first tower hit.

In fact the first tower collapsed 103mins after the plane hit and the second tower collapsed 58mins after the plane hit. The first tower that was hit by Flight 11 lasted almost twice as long as the second tower hit by Flight 175 before it collapsed.

Obviously there are a thousand other variables that contributed to the length of time each tower withstood the fire after the plane impact. For example the fuel load of each plane as it hit the tower, speed and angle of impact, how much fireproofing was compromised by the impact etc but the weight above the weakened area, in my opinion, was the biggest factor.

Once we have an estimate of the weight above the weakened area that fell, when the structure failed, it is then easy using Newtonian physics to show that the forces involved in the collapse were immense and way and above anything anyone has seen before.

Knowing this it's impossible to compare the WTC collapse to other high rise fires especially when you don't consider the differences in building size and design, and also don't consider the structural damage and compromised fireproofing caused by the plane impact, something CT'ers often do.
 
The problem with you tube-oligists who use troofervangelism as their guide is that they utterly fail to look for any explanations which would disprove their pet theory…no matter how stupid any improvable their theory is. They simply don’t seem to understand that there is more science to mechanisms of the WTC collapses than they will ever know about.

Events happened on a macroscopic and microscopic level, each event being completely separate yet contributing to the overall outcome of the day’s events.

Typical concrete becomes powder at 400 degree C. It breaks down into quicklime and silica. Look it up!

There’s many more little truths to be found, buy a book, read, learn…
 
If the floors above the weaken area (impact spots) would have toppled over and fallen to the ground...due to a fire causing damage to the steel infrastructure at the impact spots...than yes, that would make perfect sense. But, you just made a big case about the weight above the impact points.. playing a key role in the collapse of the buildings...yet, I just showed you that on one of the collapses, the floors above the impact spot didn't even fall straight down on to the lower floors....ALL of the floors above the impact points...on one of the towers...COMPLETELY topples over to the side, as we watch the floors below...continue to perfectly crumble one by one...without so much as a pound of weight or energy coming from above. Don't you see the clear inconsistencies? Both towers...fell identically...but there were significantly different variables at work. Each tower fell perfectly...each floor giving out in a perfectly timed sequence....there wasn't any aberrations i.e. a slowing of the collapse or changes in direction or appearance. Everything just crumbled in a perfect order, even though as I have stated, one building didn't even have the weight of the upper floors bearing down on it. Watch this short vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhDOq305oh0
 
So it was like your chair in school that you leaned back on, but in this case, it didnt lean back far enough to topple over, so it just came back down, and then it went down with the rest of the building...EOS.

TAM
 
If the floors above the weaken area (impact spots) would have toppled over and fallen to the ground...due to a fire causing damage to the steel infrastructure at the impact spots...than yes, that would make perfect sense.


That's one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my life. Where did this magical lateral force come from than managed to topple over 15+ floors of skyscraper?



ALL of the floors above the impact points...on one of the towers...COMPLETELY topples over to the side, as we watch the floors below...continue to perfectly crumble one by one...without so much as a pound of weight or energy coming from above.


Er... are you sure you're watching the right building? I've watched both collapses more times than I can stomach, and what you just described certainly did not happen.




Both towers...fell identically...

They did not.


Each tower fell perfectly...[/QUOTE]

Nonsense.

-Gumboot
 
Why the need to constantly call me names? What have I done to any of you for you to be so mean to me? Have I made you question some of your beliefs? Is this the cause of your anger? Having ones' beliefs put into question often invokes a lot of fear...because, well...our beliefs are all we really have...and so if I make you question them...that is a scary thing...as now your, "reality" is in doubt...and since we humans like to be kind of certain about our, "reality," as to create a feeling of safety and security in our environments...if ones' beliefs are shifted into peril...well, the end result is trepidation.

With questioned beliefs...we have an insecure world before us...which leaves us shaky and unsure...thus, filled with fear which is invariably masked with anger...which in turn...leads to war.

I love you people...and no matter what all of you say about me....you won't get me to play dirty...I will simply stick to the issues and facts of this event.
 
Sir,

I'm not sure what kind of logic you're trying to use...
It's called reasoning and the scientific method. You should try it sometime.

but, the floors came down from the top...so each of the "collapsing" floors didn't have the entire weight of the building bearing down on them. As I have stated...on one of the collapses we can clearly see the top floors above the impact points...completely topple over to the side...just after the collapse had begin...so at this point....each floor that we see exploding/collapsing - is basically the TOP floor of the structure at the time of its pulverization.

There is NO weight bearing down on them....it's like the top floor keeps disappearing...one by one...that's why I said it didn't really collapse...the floors are actually exploding in a downward sequence...and that's why the building can and DID "fall" faster than the speed of free fall or gravity...because actually...nothing is collapsing or falling really (besides the remains of the explosions) The floors are just being pulverized in a downward sequence that creates the illusion that the floors are collapsing down upon one another. Yes, it's like a CD, that no one has ever seen...because I MEAN...look at the mess it caused...no one would ever CD a steel-structure building that tall...and that's why they had to use a different technique...as oppose to WTC 7, which was a more classic CD.
There is plenty of weight on top of that impact zone. As Spins has shown, there's 50-120 Megatons of weight. Just because the top tilts over, doesn't mean that its weight disappears. I'm sure there are a lot of 300-pound obese people who'd like to know that all they have to do to lose weight is lean over a little bit.

Why don't you start a new company, "Lose Weight by Leaning Over"? I'm sure you'd be a millionaire by 30 and forget all about 9/11. That's a win/win situation, for both you and society.

If the floors above the weaken area (impact spots) would have toppled over and fallen to the ground...due to a fire causing damage to the steel infrastructure at the impact spots...than yes, that would make perfect sense. But, you just made a big case about the weight above the impact points.. playing a key role in the collapse of the buildings...yet, I just showed you that on one of the collapses, the floors above the impact spot didn't even fall straight down on to the lower floors....
Hint: It doesn't matter if weight has torque to it. It still has weight.

ALL of the floors above the impact points...on one of the towers...COMPLETELY topples over to the side,
"COMPLETELY" falls over? Why didn't those floors fall OFF the tower then? I don't think you can use the word "COMPLETELY" here. It's not reasonable and it's not scientific. See Point #1 above.

as we watch the floors below...continue to perfectly crumble one by one...without so much as a pound of weight or energy coming from above. Don't you see the clear inconsistencies? Both towers...fell identically...but there were significantly different variables at work. Each tower fell perfectly...each floor giving out in a perfectly timed sequence....there wasn't any aberrations i.e. a slowing of the collapse or changes in direction or appearance. Everything just crumbled in a perfect order, even though as I have stated, one building didn't even have the weight of the upper floors bearing down on it. Watch this short vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhDOq305oh0
Gravity is a powerful force. It makes things crumble "in perfect order." It keeps the earth in its path around the sun. We're talking major force of the universe here. What part of that don't you understand?

Sigh. I don't know why I continue to argue with imbeciles. Maybe because of Dickens.*

*This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both,
and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy,
for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the
writing be erased."
http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/christmas-carol/1951-xmas-ignorance-want.html
 
Where did this magical lateral force come from than managed to topple over 15+ floors of skyscraper?

Well, that's easy. The planes hit one side of the buildings...so if one side of the buildings' internal/external infrastructure were to give out, due to excessive heat/melted steel - whatever....than the other side could potentially fall over to that damaged side...since the damaged side, wouldn't theoretically have any support to bear the weight of the building directly above the damaged spots. Pretty common sense stuff, eh.
 
Well, that's easy. The planes hit one side of the buildings...so if one side of the buildings' internal/external infrastructure were to give out, due to excessive heat/melted steel - whatever....than the other side could potentially fall over to that damaged side...since the damaged side, wouldn't theoretically have any support to bear the weight of the building directly above the damaged spots. Pretty common sense stuff, eh.
It has to do with the transfering of loads. Talk to a structural engineer about it, buy a book, read, learn...
 
Sir,

What videos are you watching? All we can see is an outward rolling cloud of debris and dust. And BTW...how can NIST or anyone else give 100% accurate detailing of how the buildings collapsed...when there is not sufficient evidence to study? How do they know what was happening inside the buildings? And, no...me disagreeing with NIST or anyone else...doesn't imply they (the other party) are lying. They could just be wrong... God forbid...an authority figure is actually wrong....or even lying about something...now that's just a CT to end all CTs.

Yet you seem to know what happened inside those buildings. Despite the best engineers on the planets thesis, you know.

yet, I just showed you that on one of the collapses, the floors above the impact spot didn't even fall straight down on to the lower floors....ALL of the floors above the impact points...on one of the towers...COMPLETELY topples over to the side, as we watch the floors below...continue to perfectly crumble one by one...without so much as a pound of weight or energy coming from above

You the man who watches the you tube videos can see exactly what is going inside the building.

You do realize that very single you tube video you post does not show what is going on inside the building don’t you. You do realise that all you tube videos simply show the external supports as they collapse. You have absolutely no idea what is going on inside the Towers because, unless you have suddenly developed X ray vision your you tube videos do not show what is going on.

You make preposterous claim after preposterous claim about the Towers being able to take a dynamic load that suddenly dropped on to the floor space and to back this up, you show people your tube videos of the external super structure.

The floor spaces braced the core to the steel superstructure, or does this not figure in your line of thinking? Once this bracing as gone there is nothing, zero to hold the external supports in place. They will simply fall away. The core did not take the full brunt of the falling mass, the floor spaces did. They could never take this falling mass, despite your absolute rubbish you are putting forward.

You have offered nothing; you have got nothing, other than you tube videos and your silly misinterpretation of what is going on inside the Towers.

You are complete wrong and you know it. You believe that everybody is lying, other than yourself. You my friend are the liar. you have done since you came here and will continue to do so, until you are exposed as the sock you are.

I bid you good day sir.
 
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Just because the top tilts over, doesn't mean that its weight disappears. I'm sure there are a lot of 300-pound obese people who'd like to know that all they have to do to lose weight is lean over a little bit.

Sir,

Wow...unreal logic and interpretation of my words. I didn't DECLARE that because the top floors above the impact points fell COMPLETELY off to the side, that they magically became weightless...how do you even read that from what I have said? I am saying that, yes...BECAUSE those top floors, didn't FALL ON TOP OF the floors below...THAT THE WEIGHT of those top floors....WHICH IS NOW DETACHED FROM THE WTC I.E. TO THE SIDE...HAD ZERO impact on the remaining floors still attached to the WTC. How are you saying that a massive piece of steel and concrete falling TO THE SIDE could have any downward force or impact on a structure to which it NOW has NO TIES or physical relation to? Explain that one please.

""COMPLETELY" falls over? Why didn't those floors fall OFF the tower then? I don't think you can use the word "COMPLETELY" here. It's not reasonable and it's not scientific. See Point #1 above."

Um, THE FLOORS DID fall off the towers...as they soon disappeared in the cloud of dust that engulfed the WTC. Maybe those detached floors never hit the ground, because they were pulverized after they fell to the side.

BTW, I really enjoy engaging 4-5 people like this...because it actually feels like some sort of communication...but I must say, that once the 40-50 people join...I will have to refrain from posting...since it's all but impossible for me to keep up.

Thanks.
 
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Here's what gets me...
Here's what gets me: Every time your statements get shot down w/ facts, evidence, etc you ignore what was presented to you and change the subject to something else you think will withstand scrutiny. (though it never does)


You're a poor debater. One would think that by this point you'd begin to suspect that you may be wrong, but that's the CT "mind" at work for ya.
 
I know there were some small fires in the building...but, nothing RAGING....

You've been shown photos like this

wtc7smokemajor.jpg


a number of times, and continue to ignore them.

Why?
 
That's a video of MIT Engineer and Research Scientist saying the collapsing were MORE LIKELY to have occurred as the result of a CD than any other theory yet posed.
Want to be that the man in that video is not a "MIT Engineer and Research Scientist"? The stakes will be that you go away if I'm right.
 
Why the need to constantly call me names? What have I done to any of you for you to be so mean to me?
Start adressing specific points made to you and you'll get more respect around here. You can start w/ admitting that Silverstein was quoting Chief Nigro accurately, as Nigro himself said in the NY Times article that was posted.
 
Want to be that the man in that video is not a "MIT Engineer and Research Scientist"? The stakes will be that you go away if I'm right.

It's so funny that they call Jeff King a "MIT Engineer and Research Scientist". It shows who depserate they are for credibility that they will label people with the most dishonest titles. "Research Scientist" is a faculty position at most research universities. Jeff King is most certainly not a member of the MIT faculty. He doesn't even have a PhD.
 
Floors buckling and caving inwards...doesn't seem very consistent with the video we have...of floors exploding outwards. Are we gonna believe some half-witted conjecture in the NIST...over what our own eyes tell us...
Really? You have video of material "exploding outwards" prior to or at the very start of the collpase? I really doubt that.
 
I know you all hate REAL video evidence...but this is rather nice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr5TxKTMRx0

A bunch of policemen and firefighters...saying. That WTC 7 is about to BLOW UP! Okay, they said it many times...I don't know how you can misconstrue those words. They actually said, BLOW UP. How did they know it was bout to BLOW UP? What are the psychic?

OKAY, now...that in NO WAY implies that the firefighters or policemen are in on the act. Please, don't take it that way again. I'm sure they got a radio in from someone who simply told them what's going on...and to clear out the area. I'm sure these guys didn't even think anything of it at this point what with all the day's chaos already around them...but looking back...how the heck can you predict that a building is going to come down, when it wasn't hit by a plane, and it didn't have any noticeable burning fires...just large clouds of black smoke? Why must we deny so much evidence...for the mere benefit of some magical THEORY that NIST put out...which leaves only questions and no definitive answers.
 
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Here's what gets me: Every time your statements get shot down w/ facts, evidence, etc you ignore what was presented to you and change the subject to something else you think will withstand scrutiny. (though it never does)


You're a poor debater. One would think that by this point you'd begin to suspect that you may be wrong, but that's the CT "mind" at work for ya.
This isn't debate, it's akin to milking a bull.

No matter how many times these morons get kicked in the head they still reach for an utter that doesn't exist.

A hydrocephalic 3 year old could out debate them.
 

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