Fire, steel, and 911.

28 Kingdom,

I understand you have some trouble working your way through the NIST report. To make things easier for you, I have created a simplified series of diagrams that display the progression of the WTC collapses.



1 - Here we have a tower, fully intact. Note the floor trusses, exterior columns, and core columns.

2 - This is just after impact. Red indicates fire, and grey smoke. Notice how the fire spreads rapidly across the impact zone.

3 - The fire spreads rapidly through the upper floors. Notice localised floor collapses, as documented by 9-1-1 calls from people trapped inside. By this stage the fire is causing floor trusses inside the impact zone to sag (well documented) and this in turn is pulling in the exterior columns (also well documented).

4 - Things are really bad now. The bowing of the exterior columns has reached critical point, and the exterior columns have failed, collapsing inwards. The floor trusses, with nothing holding them at the exterior, fall downwards.

5 - The core in the impact zone was weakened by impact and fires - as per testimony from victims and the NYPD aviation unit. With the exterior columns now failed, the core in the impact zone is trying to hold the entire weight of the upper floors. Meanwhile the failed exterior columns and floor trusses are falling onto lower floors, which in turn are stripped from their mounts by the force of impact.

6 - The core is unable to hold the weight of the building, so, unsurprisingly, it fails in the impact zone. The upper floors smash down into the carnage left as the floor trusses continue to fall through more floors. As the top falls inside the exterior columns it pushes them outwards.

7 - The more intact core below the impact zone offers more resistance, and the upper floors begin to disintegrate under the enormous colision forces. Exterior columns shear away from the structure and peel outwards, crashing into neighbouring buildings. The floors and their contents continue downwards, forcing debris through windows.

8 - By now the smoke is obscuring much of the building. The upper floors have all but disintegrated. The floors are crashing down still, and the exterior columns continue to sheer away and fall to earth. The only part of the structure still intact is the lower core, though it has suffered damage.

9 - The majority of the collapse has finished, and the last of the debris falls into a large pile. Only the core remains standing, though it is severly damaged.

10 - The core is unable to support itself in its devastated state, and it too fails.

11 - The tower has completely collapsed, leaving nothing but a large pile of debris. Note the buried fires, which will continue to burn amidst the fuel-rich rubble for weeks.

Any questions?

-Gumboot
 
Have I made you question some of your beliefs?
No. You obviously watch too many movies.
Is this the cause of your anger?
No. it is you being stupid.
Having ones' beliefs put into question often invokes a lot of fear...because, well...our beliefs are all we really have...and so if I make you question them...that is a scary thing...as now your, "reality" is in doubt...and since we humans like to be kind of certain about our, "reality," as to create a feeling of safety and security in our environments...if ones' beliefs are shifted into peril...well, the end result is trepidation.
You really should be a screenwriter.

With questioned beliefs...we have an insecure world before us...which leaves us shaky and unsure...thus, filled with fear which is invariably masked with anger...which in turn...leads to war.
Is 9/11 your religion now?

I love you people
Once again I can't speak for others but I certainly do not love you nor would I ever (at least not till you got an optoanalectomy) and I seriously doubt any skeptic here loves you.
 
Okay,

You know what? I'm gonna leave this forum now...because, honestly this is scary. I mean literally...this is starting to frighten me. Oh wow. For you not to be able to deduce my statements about the fireman saying the building is going to blow up...and the fact that IT IN NO WAY implies, the firemen actually knows who is responsible for the bombing...I mean, I can't and won't debate people who....I can't even finish that sentence. I'm just literally shaken...by some of you. You almost make me wanna cry.

FDNY and NYPD...are the biggest heros of 9/11....without question...and don't you ever try to twist my words to state otherwise. I am utterly disturbed at the piranha like nature I have encountered on this site. It's unreal...and I simply can't take it any longer. I tried my best...and lord knows...I have been very civil...and endured a lot of harsh words for doing absolutely nothing to you people...besides trying to hold a debate...

I don't know what to say...the viciousness here...is unbearable. I don't wanna be a part of this anymore...because it doesn't feel good or right.

Thanks to all who have participated...but I must leave now...

Godspeed.


I will not bid you farewell or will I offer you the hand of friendship as you depart. You can save you silly outrage, because the enormity of your accusations has been pointed out to you.

This movement you support and you yourself have accused many people involved in this event of lying. They accuse NORAD, they accuse NIST, they accuse the firemen, and they even accuse the victims themselves.

This pitiful excuse for a movement accuses the very best the USA has to offer of lying. They accuse respected engineers and scientists of lying. They accuse those charged with protected the US of lying. They accuse anybody who disagrees with them of lying. This movement does nothing other than accuse perfectly innocent and respectable people of lying.

They will receive no quarter from me; they will receive exactly what they deserve, utter contempt and condemnation.

Go to your movement, embrace their lies and cheer on as they absolutely desecrate this dreadful event. You have my blessing.
 
"Instead, what NIST is claiming is that, instead of each floor tearing loose, it sagged, pulling inward on the outer columns until they were twisted to the point of failure. The weight then fell on a lower floor, causing it to sag, buckling the outer columns, etc. This is their "progressive collapse."

Wow, that's even worse than a pancake collapse. Um, just look at the videos and you will see, everything is shooting outwards..it surely isn't collapsing inwards. Each floor is being pulverized one by one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vT8Vj2Yv14

And R.Mackey....I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to actually engage the debate with some type of actual THEORY! It doesn't appear that anyone else wants to actually articulate how the buildings collapsed...but you have at least attempted to do so...so thank you...and I apologize because I obviously overlooked these statements in the original haze of other posts.

So, are you actually peedeeps' sock puppet or are you really a different CTNC?
Enquirering minds want to NO!!!:D :D :D :D :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :rolleyes:
 
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"In WTC 1, the aircraft impact caused damage to the north and south walls, floors, some core columns, and insulation. The subsequent fires caused sagging of the floors on the south side of the office area, where insulation was damaged, and inward bowing of the south wall. The damage to the core columns resulted in local load redistribution to the remaining core columns. The subsequent fire-induced high temperatures caused the core to displace downward from plasticity and high creep strains in high stress and high temperatures. The downward displacement of the core resulted in load redistribution from the core to the exterior walls. With continuously increased bowing, the entire width of the south wall buckled inward. The section of the building above the impact zone tilted to the south as instability progressed horizontally to the adjacent east and west walls. Global collapse occurred as potential energy of the falling upper structure exceeded the strain energy capacity in the deforming structural members."

Okay...this is starting to get insane. So no one had any questions about this? Like what energy force caused all of the concrete in the building to simply pulverize in mid air? You know, I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for that, right? The concrete didn't simply fall in on itself...it was catapulted outwards...and turned into dust....what force caused this?

"Global collapse occurred as potential energy of the falling upper structure exceeded the strain energy capacity in the deforming structural members."

Are they referring to a pancake-like collapse here? Are they saying the weight and falling force of the upper floors helped collapse the structure below?

Just calculate the energy stored in the building. Potential energy was equal to the energy of 248 tons of TNT, that is almost 1000 500 pound bombs. 1,000!!!!

This is why you see lots of destruction! You just do not comprehend the force good old mother nature, in the form of gravity, has saddle us with.
 
What do you think the cloud of dust is raining down from the collapses? Smoke? Just to let you know...Smoke ALWAYS goes up...cus heat rises. Everything falling from the buildings...are dust particles. What evidence do I have that things pulverized in mid-air? Um, they're already turned into dust and they're still in the air...does that answer your question?

I saw a house collapse, CA always has houses falling down somewhere, and it spewed out dust!

Darn, what force made the dust? Gravity collapse made the dust, now you figure the rest out.

Darn, or did Bush blow down all the house in CA. PNAC has a secret dust ray! The NWO dust machine! The dust maker secret weapon.

You know you need to talk to Judy Wood, she has this beam weapon you may want to go all the way truthiness of the beam weaponitist.
 
Okay,

You know what? I'm gonna leave this forum now...

Oh Darn! And I so very much did want to find out about his firefighting experience. I've been in the fire service 42 years and have been Chief of two departments. Yes, I HAVE "pulled" firefighters out of buildings where you could not see fire from three sides and yet we could not contain the fire. (It's why we assign officers as Sector Commanders to deal with areas we can't see.) I've seen plenty of incidents with fire on multiple floors like WTC7 that anyone would consider "raging fire". I've been close enough to structural collapse-both partial and total to wonder if I'd survive. I've seen many instances of "thick black clouds of smoke" that did NOT indicate an oxygen starved fire. And for what it's worth I have been working with explosives for many years and even have an explosives license from the state- Never have I heard the term "pull" to mean controlled demolition.

But hey, I COULD be wrong. Perhaps "28th Kingdom" has more firefighting and explosives experience than I do. But he's gone away so I can't ask him about his experience in these areas....or invite him to pay a visit with me to the guys from 10/10 house. (Yes, I know a few of the firefighters involved in the WTC response....and I sure they'd be willing to have a "dialogue" with him.) Oh right, he's left the Forum. Never mind.....
 
"dialogue" with him.) Oh right, he's left the Forum. Never mind.....

Now we all know building can not fall due to fire! I mean steel frame buildings.

I think we need to send 28th to you so you can send him into the next steel frame building burning so he can prove it will not fall.
 
Now we all know building can not fall due to fire! I mean steel frame buildings.

I think we need to send 28th to you so you can send him into the next steel frame building burning so he can prove it will not fall.
we'll make a whole documentary about it

28th K demonstrates the strutural safety of burning buildings by running into one

dylan avery shows how boxcutters are are ineffective weapons by allowing himself to be attacked with one

ims ure we can come up with more
 
we'll make a whole documentary about it

28th K demonstrates the strutural safety of burning buildings by running into one

dylan avery shows how boxcutters are are ineffective weapons by allowing himself to be attacked with one

ims ure we can come up with more

boxcutters used to cut throats are quick and effective

I remember waking up after a marine, proud of his training, told me if he held the neck hold for so long I would be dead! I said thanks, have another beer
 
Woohoo! Killtown posted that clip, so you have your ivory-soap 99-44/100 guarantee it is a quote-mining hack job.

28th, since this is such a serious issue, may we assume that you contacted the Chief to ask if he continues to hold that opinion?
 
Looky here...even the Chief of Safety of the New York Fire Department is a crazy CTist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRHluIkUycA

This troofy actually thinks that devices were planted in the building. What's this wacko gonna talk about next, string theory and holographic universes? Will it never end?

Oh no, you have uncovered 9/11 stuff from 9/11, in the fog of battle, the biggest terrorist strike in the US, you are cherry picking a live news feed?

This is proof of your prowless expert research, we will not be your royal lemmings to the end.

oops the end has come

you have dug up some more BS, I thought you left forever.

If this is your neat stuff take a powder

You said you left but you lied (sounds like a song)
 
Woohoo! Killtown posted that clip, so you have your ivory-soap 99-44/100 guarantee it is a quote-mining hack job.

28th, since this is such a serious issue, may we assume that you contacted the Chief to ask if he continues to hold that opinion?

So you are calling this American hero...a liar? What is wrong with you...have you no heart or dignity?

Also, I KNOW...I will take crap for this vid...because this is classic CT as you like to say, but the references and audio recordings CANNOT be denied:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKdvl--1Dt0

Um, everyone says...that virtually every professional, expert blah blah, agrees with NIST's theory. YET, THE VERY company who certified the steel in the WTC, said that the jet fuel COULDN'T have melted the columns on tower 1 & 2. So, are you calling this guy a liar? A guy from the company who actually certified the dang steel? Wouldn't he kind of be an expert on the subject?

You must address these points. I know this vid contains some things that everyone has seen before...but the audio of the firefighters inside the buildings is compelling. I need someone to explain what is causing all of these explosions on floors that are over 50-60 floors below the impact point. How can you possibly explain that? Or are you saying these firefighters are lying?

Please, don't dismiss me as whatever...the fact that you refuse to engage these points, clearly shows that you have absolutely nothing to stand on.
 
So you are calling this American hero...a liar? What is wrong with you...have you no heart or dignity?

Also, I KNOW...I will take crap for this vid...because this is classic CT as you like to say, but the references and audio recordings CANNOT be denied:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKdvl--1Dt0

Um, everyone says...that virtually every professional, expert blah blah, agrees with NIST's theory. YET, THE VERY company who certified the steel in the WTC, said that the jet fuel COULDN'T have melted the columns on tower 1 & 2. So, are you calling this guy a liar? A guy from the company who actually certified the dang steel? Wouldn't he kind of be an expert on the subject?

You must address these points. I know this vid contains some things that everyone has seen before...but the audio of the firefighters inside the buildings is compelling. I need someone to explain what is causing all of these explosions on floors that are over 50-60 floors below the impact point. How can you possibly explain that? Or are you saying these firefighters are lying?

Please, don't dismiss me as whatever...the fact that you refuse to engage these points, clearly shows that you have absolutely nothing to stand on.

I have seen better research from my 5th graders. You present a video with no facts at all! Zero evidence to prove anything. And you think you have something. Do you always make up stuff with flimsy evidence or have you had luck finding real facts once?

Are you able to present real facts or evidence on 9/11; you seem like a new conspiracy theory guy; no real facts just regurgitating the junk of truthers, you know lies and misleading information, like the video!
 
Oh no, you have uncovered 9/11 stuff from 9/11, in the fog of battle, the biggest terrorist strike in the US, you are cherry picking a live news feed?

So you are trying to question the credibility of one of our heros? You are basically saying that because of the events of that day, this brave soul was delusional? He clearly didn't know what was going on around him...what he was seeing and hearing...but you surely know, right? Okay, I think I've heard all I need from you.
 
YET, THE VERY company who certified the steel in the WTC, said that the jet fuel COULDN'T have melted the columns on tower 1 & 2. So, are you calling this guy a liar? A guy from the company who actually certified the dang steel? Wouldn't he kind of be an expert on the subject?
Want to bet that the company did not certify the steel, and never certified any structural steel anywhere? And that your guy is a water quality tester who was fired for using his companys name w/o permission and in a misleading manner (actually outright lying)?

How are those credentials for Jeff King looking now btw? You claimed he was a "MIT Engineer and Research Scientist". Do you stand by that claim?
 

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