This is the thread that may very well change the way you look at 9/11 FOREVER!

[Matt32]

Sir,

Thanks so much for writing.

...

If everyone will shut off the voice of their ego, and just meditate - quietly while watching the collapse of WTC 7 on a loop...the truth will find you.

I appreciate the eloquence and civility with which you are approaching this topic. However, I have been combing through your post here in search of anything substantial at all having been expressed, and keep coming up short. Fluffly conjecture does not combine well with detailed analysis of evidence, and as others on this thread have mentioned, this forum does not take well to such an attempted mixture.

 

[Alt+F4]

Ma'am,

There are massive amounts of video coverage - day of - where firefighters, policemen, reporters etc. ALL claim to hear several bombs going off right before and during the collapses. That is heavily documented.

Did these witnesses say they heard bombs or explosions? An explosion doesn't mean explosives are being used. Bomb is too generic a term. A car backfire might sound like a bomb to someone, especially someone who has no military or demolition expertise.

 

[Arus808]

Ma'am,

There are massive amounts of video coverage - day of - where firefighters, policemen, reporters etc. ALL claim to hear several bombs going off right before and during the collapses. That is heavily documented.

Please read this document as prepared by Gravy on this board
http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.doc


YOu also need to make the distinction of similies and actual factual statements.

You'd quickly find that many of those firefighters, policemen and reporters, etc, stated that they thought they heard bombs, or were passing on the thoughts of those who reported to them as fact, and a majority of them described hearing EXPLOSIONS. and not bombs themselves. Explosions is not evidence of explosives



I think its best that you stop answering questions here first, and read the documentation that you have been linked to before continuing on.

And use the search button found on this forum. Any specific question that you have, please ask here, otherwise, everything that you've stated has been asked and answered numerous times.

 

[HeyLeroy]

Sir,

Thanks so much for writing. See, this is what I am referring to, when I say, "Over analyzing," this issue. We must not project our uninformed and unsubstantiated assumptions onto the actual hard evidence and facts of this event...lest we distort (the facts of the event) with our preconceived notions.

True enough, that all of our bodies are in the physical world - manifested from an invisible metaphysical realm, but for us to try and conceive and/or analyze this process (manifestation) as a means to prove our existence only moves us away from the actual physical evidence (our body) that is so clearly evident before us. We need not question the odds or probability of such a manifestation to occur in order for us to unequivocally state that our bodies are in fact, present in the material world.

Thus, we need not have a firm understanding of how such an operation (inside job) would be orchestrated and/or executed, in order for us to clearly espy the fact that three steel-structured buildings collapsed by controlled demolitions.

That building from Chicago in 1967 is not even remotely comparable to the WTC buildings. That's a typical roof collapse of a one or two story building. Nothing fancy about it. We're talking about HUGE skyscrapers, that crumble right into their own footprint. Someone pull a video of WTC 7's collapse. Get a real short clip...of just where it shows the building disappear from the skyline in about 7 seconds. So what's the answer to how this one fell? Did fire melt some floors and cause a pancake collapse? But, all the floors just fall at the same time. There is no domino effect. So we've got 47 stories here. I mean, just say fire completely melted 10 floors (fire, that's not even visible but from one side of the building...I'm sure you've seen buildings that have fires so big, that you can see the blaze from all sides, and these buildings didn't even attempt to collapse like WTC 7) okay, so let an expert step up...and explain technically, how that caused all 47 stories to vaporize all at the same time.

If everyone will shut off the voice of their ego, and just meditate - quietly while watching the collapse of WTC 7 on a loop...the truth will find you.

You should watch out for things like that closing statement, it becomes evident that this is a religion to you and not a science based debate. Quite a few experts have weighed in on WTC 7, they do not seem to concur with you. Since you seem to lack the necessary education to make such judgements yourself, who are the experts (you know, people who will do calculations, study materials, etc as opposed to staring at some meaningless video) that support your story?

Good call. I was just thinking how this person is starting to sound like a televangelist.

Ma'am,

There are massive amounts of video coverage - day of - where firefighters, policemen, reporters etc. ALL claim to hear several bombs going off right before and during the collapses. That is heavily documented.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Oh GAG.

If we were to change our minds about 9/11, we would have to admit we were wrong*. You might not be right, but we would certainly be wrong.

This happy-feely BS does nothing to help your cause.




*The difference between a skeptic and a believer is, the skeptic is willing to admit he's wrong - when the evidence shows it. Take a look at the discussion of the fire codes that's going on right here in this thread - Two skeptics, asking for evidence, and at some point, once evidence has been presented, or it is acknowledged that such evidence is unavailable, one of them will admit that they were wrong.

Horatius, I'm happy you pointed this out.

Even though uk_dave is a respected forum member here, I felt it necessary to question his statement. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps uk_dave painted with too broad a brush.

The fact is, Dave is not the only one on this forum to make this statement. I think it was repeated here again after dave's post.

And yes, if I'm wrong I plan to apologize for making dave spend his time backing up his statement. If I'm right, I may start a thread on it to put an end to the statement.

Skinny

 

[28th Kingdom]

28th Kingdom. This is a question I ask a lot of 9/11 Twoofers, and one they have a huge problem answering, for some reason.

Is there a chance that you could be wrong? That the official story is exactly how it all happened? No CD, no patsies, no false flags, but just a bunch of sick terrorists flying planes into buildings?

Could you be mistaken?

Sir,

Well, actually...I originally thought terrorists we're responsible for the attacks. But, once presented with the overwhelming and irrefutable evidence of the events...I simply cannot deny the truth. The truth is the truth...whether or not it's a painful truth...it is still the truth...and I acknowledge it as such.

Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods? That is documented proof of America's willingness to use false flag tactics against it's own people in order to build support for a war against another country.

What adds up about the events surrounding 9/11? Does anything? Does any of this country's actions after the fact make sense? Did we go drop a couple bombs on Japan after Pearl Habor, and then go evade Brazil?

If the government so clearly told us who perpetrated the attacks i.e. Bin Laden, than why did we just go after him for a short while...than send all of our attention to Iraq? Bush has been video taped saying, that one of the hardest parts of his job is connecting Iraq to the war on terror. I mean, the guy actually said that on tape. But, I thought we invaded Iraq, because Saddam had ties to Bin Laden and Al Qeada?

Listen, nothing makes sense about how the government has handled 9/11 or the aftermath. NOTHING! Plus all of the physical evidence points to controlled demolitions...we know about Operation Northwoods...that as a FACT, the government would have tried this very same thing i.e. false flag on the American people - if it were not for Kennedy nixing it at the last moment.

In the court of law....we've got motive, we've got opportunity, we've got all the physical evidence i.e. video footage, audio recordings - insider trading, the first privatized ownership of the WTC in it's history finalized just months before the attacks...and insured against terrorist attacks etc.

Um, according to the government...a commercial airliner...flew into the Pentagon. Yep, the most well protected building in the world. And, guess what...our military just let a huge plane fly into it. I mean...what happened to NORAD?

I think I'm starting to see how some might not believe these theories...the evidence is utterly blinding.

 

[Thunder]

"Is it possible to prove whether or not (irrefutably) that in the history of the world...a steel-structured building has collapsed as a direct result of a fire?"

-this is such a straw man...i dont know why this guy even writes this.

for the one millionth time, no other steel building in the world history has been hit by a high speed, fully fueled, jet aircraft. the empire state was hit by a much slower, much smaller, and much lower fueled aircraft. plus the empire state was a much stronger building then the wtc.

you show me a building that was hit by a high speed jet, filled with fuel, that doesnt collapse from fire, and i will believe the wtc was a controlled demo.

until you can make a complete comparison with the exact same variables, the comparison just doesnt work. this is science...not romper room.

 

[uk_dave]

No problem mr skinny, I just had to take a phone call just as I was responding to your initial request

The following link is approved document B

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADB_2000.pdf

Tables A1 & A2 on p.116 onwards in the document has the periods of fire protection required to various elements of the structure including load bearing members, for various building types.

Hope that helps

 

[maccy]

Why were there no explosives heard detonating as in other CDs

Good point I hadn't thought of before....especially considering the fact the the collapse of WTC7 was shown on live TV.

Ma'am,

There are massive amounts of video coverage - day of - where firefighters, policemen, reporters etc. ALL claim to hear several bombs going off right before and during the collapses. That is heavily documented.

Almost every one of those reports are of "explosions". Some say they heard something that "sounded like" a bomb. Almost none claims that they believed that the sounds they heard were bombs or explosives being detonated.

Read them again with an honest mind. You'll find that what I say is correct.

Did these witnesses say they heard bombs or explosions? An explosion doesn't mean explosives are being used. Bomb is too generic a term. A car backfire might sound like a bomb to someone, especially someone who has no military or demolition expertise.

In addition to the above points, why doesn't the TV and video footage of WTC7 contain the noise of explosions that you normally hear in contolled demolitions?

Here is an example:



from:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69994

another relevant thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70047

NB in a controlled demolition, the explosions occur before the collapse.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

i stopped reading at the word "dissolved" does anyone have the cliff's notes for this thread?

 

[28th Kingdom]

Sir,

Virturally every assertion of fact that you've made has been shown to be false or irrelevant, and your every attempt at logic has been shown to be fallacious. Your response is that we should "meditate" and watch a tape loop until the Truth Fairy pays us a visit?

After your opening post, this is quite a let-down.

Sir,

I know this is a let-down...because as you can see...this thread has not gone how I wanted it to. I had a very tight and well-thought out plan, and now I have been swept up into side debates and conversations. I admit, at this point...it's not where I want it to be. If everyone would have simply answered questions...than, I could have taken you there. Hopefully, we can get this ship back on course, because I have so much more to share...but at this point, I'm watering myself down, by replying to posts without rhyme or reason.

It's extremely difficult for me to moderate this debate, because there are so many voices...coming all at once. And, please ignore the spiritual talk from me...everyone seemed to be hinting at that...so I just threw that stuff in. As stated in my opening post...I want to reveal the truth via hard evidence and facts, NOT by virtue of faith-based leaping taking.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods? That is documented proof of America's willingness to use false flag tactics against it's own people in order to build support for a war against another country.

what do you mean "against its own people?"

theres a big difference between blowing up fake planes and killing 3000 people

 

[Pardalis]

How old are you 28th kingdom?

 

[John Blonn]

Sir,

Well, actually...I originally thought terrorists we're responsible for the attacks. But, once presented with the overwhelming and irrefutable evidence of the events...I simply cannot deny the truth. The truth is the truth...whether or not it's a painful truth...it is still the truth...and I acknowledge it as such.

Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods? That is documented proof of America's willingness to use false flag tactics against it's own people in order to build support for a war against another country.

What adds up about the events surrounding 9/11? Does anything? Does any of this country's actions after the fact make sense? Did we go drop a couple bombs on Japan after Pearl Habor, and then go evade Brazil?

If the government so clearly told us who perpetrated the attacks i.e. Bin Laden, than why did we just go after him for a short while...than send all of our attention to Iraq? Bush has been video taped saying, that one of the hardest parts of his job is connecting Iraq to the war on terror. I mean, the guy actually said that on tape. But, I thought we invaded Iraq, because Saddam had ties to Bin Laden and Al Qeada?

Listen, nothing makes sense about how the government has handled 9/11 or the aftermath. NOTHING! Plus all of the physical evidence points to controlled demolitions...we know about Operation Northwoods...that as a FACT, the government would have tried this very same thing i.e. false flag on the American people - if it were not for Kennedy nixing it at the last moment.

In the court of law....we've got motive, we've got opportunity, we've got all the physical evidence i.e. video footage, audio recordings - insider trading, the first privatized ownership of the WTC in it's history finalized just months before the attacks...and insured against terrorist attacks etc.

Um, according to the government...a commercial airliner...flew into the Pentagon. Yep, the most well protected building in the world. And, guess what...our military just let a huge plane fly into it. I mean...what happened to NORAD?

I think I'm starting to see how some might not believe these theories...the evidence is utterly blinding.

28th Kingdom.

You've done the same thing ALL twoofers have done when I've asked this question: not answered it.

You dodged it with musings on "overwhelming and irrefutable evidence," but you failed to acknowledge that YOU could be wrong.

Do you believe yourself infallible? Isn't there a chance that you are using incorrect information, poor physics, and indeed, even straight up lies and misinfo? Isn't it likely that the hundreds of experts - engineers, scientistists, FBI investigators - are right on the money? That there is no "massive coverup," that everything is INDEED as it seems?

Is there a chance that you could be completely wrong? Yes or no?

 

[Firestone]

Sir,

Well, actually...I originally thought terrorists we're responsible for the attacks. But, once presented with the overwhelming and irrefutable evidence of the events...I simply cannot deny the truth. The truth is the truth...whether or not it's a painful truth...it is still the truth...and I acknowledge it as such.

Why don't you present us this "overwhelming and irrefutable evidence"?

Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods? That is documented proof of America's willingness to use false flag tactics against it's own people in order to build support for a war against another country.

Actually, there are no American casualties in Operation Northwoods.

What adds up about the events surrounding 9/11? Does anything? Does any of this country's actions after the fact make sense? Did we go drop a couple bombs on Japan after Pearl Habor, and then go evade Brazil?

If the government so clearly told us who perpetrated the attacks i.e. Bin Laden, than why did we just go after him for a short while...than send all of our attention to Iraq? Bush has been video taped saying, that one of the hardest parts of his job is connecting Iraq to the war on terror. I mean, the guy actually said that on tape. But, I thought we invaded Iraq, because Saddam had ties to Bin Laden and Al Qeada?

If you think LOGICALLY, you'll see that this is actually an argument AGAINST the inside-job theory.

Listen, nothing makes sense about how the government has handled 9/11 or the aftermath. NOTHING! Plus all of the physical evidence points to controlled demolitions...we know about Operation Northwoods...that as a FACT, the government would have tried this very same thing i.e. false flag on the American people - if it were not for Kennedy nixing it at the last moment.

Well, we (I at least) don't know about the "physical evidence that points to controlled demolitions". Why don't you present it?

In the court of law....we've got motive, we've got opportunity, we've got all the physical evidence i.e. video footage, audio recordings - insider trading, the first privatized ownership of the WTC in it's history finalized just months before the attacks...and insured against terrorist attacks etc.

You have not yet proven motive and you don't have physical evidence. The insurance thing has already been debunked thousand times.

Um, according to the government...a commercial airliner...flew into the Pentagon. Yep, the most well protected building in the world. And, guess what...our military just let a huge plane fly into it. I mean...what happened to NORAD?

What makes you say that the Pentagon is the "most well protected building in the world"? And NORAD did the best they could in extremelly difficult circumstances.

I think I'm starting to see how some might not believe these theories...the evidence is utterly blinding.

Up to now, the evidence presented is, well, unexisting.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Number #15, cus I have a link I want to post. Thanks.

 

[28th Kingdom]

i stopped reading at the word "dissolved" does anyone have the cliff's notes for this thread?

http://m-w.com/dictionary/dissolve

It means more than you might think.

 

[Pardalis]

Number #15, cus I have a link I want to post. Thanks.

Let me guess, a link to a conspiracy theory site?

 

[stateofgrace]

28th Kingdom,

I would like to give you a word of advise if I can, you seen a descent enough chap, but if I may. You are not on a forum populated by gullible teenagers. You on a forum full of critical thinkers, this forum has many people who have looked at all the evidence you are presenting before. It has all been debunked, you are achieving nothing by putting forward, your own personnel opinions here, and they mean nothing. You have to present fact, irrefutable, undisputable before anybody here will take you seriously.

Talking of which have you actually sat down for a moment and thoroughly thought through what you are suggesting? What you are actually trying to get people to believe. MASS MURDER, is what you are suggesting, mass murder you are accusing people of, perfectly innocent people.

I seriously urge you to stop what you are doing, take a deep breath and seriously reconsider what you are promoting.

You are promoting lies; you are asking people to believe the firemen are covering up the mass murder of their comrades. You are asking people to believe that NIST are covering up mass murder. You are asking people to believe that secret US death squads planted explosives inside each of the Towers, knowing they would kill thousands of innocent people. You are asking people to believe that the 911 commissions is a fraud and covering up mass murder.

Please, for the love of all you hold dear, reconsider what you are suggesting, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself one question.

If you were asked to be part of it, would you, and would you keep quiet for five years about it?

This is not a matter to be taken lighten, it is not a matter of your own personnel opinions, it is a matter of science and engineering facts. They all support NIST, The entire engineering and scientific community supports the truth, the fact, the undeniable. It is the conspirators that twist these facts that make claims without even bothering to back them up. Science is not on your side, neither is engineering. The only thing you have is your opinion, which quite frankly means nothing and is totally irrelevant in this matter.

The fact that you have seen a you tube video of WTC 7 and you think it looks like a controlled demolition, means nothing, it is irrelevant. The fact that you think the Towers should have stood, means nothing, it is irrelevant. Your opinions, without any form of factual backing mean absolutely nothing.

I say this in the hope of helping you understand and not in a malicious manner.

 

[uk_dave]

http://m-w.com/dictionary/dissolve

It means more than you might think.

Was that it?

I was expecting an earth shattering link which would destroy (or pull) all our firmly held non CT beliefs to the ground.

And you post a dictionary