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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Originally Posted by Huntster
Considering the odor these creatures are reported to emit, it might be painful for the noses that get rubbed, too.

Not to mention the egos attached to the noses...........

Well, all I can say is that I will not hold my breath waiting.

You might consider holding your breath if your nose gets rubbed in it.

Originally Posted by Huntster
"Raise the required quality level?"

So, as the quality of the evidence rises, so too do the denials?

And thus it is that only a corpse will do.

Hunster, if a certain subject is constantly plagued by frauds and mistakes, I think you would want to make a detailed examination of any new and possibly important piece of evidence, eh?

This is raising the quality level.

And I have done so by stating that only a corpse will do, not because of my own need, but for the need of those who reject all else, even decent evidence.

Would you acept a bigfoot movie by Biscardi without a detailied investigation, even if it looked pretty good?

Nope. Nor Mr. Moneymaker. Nor anyone else.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Like I stated above, I have no responsibility whatsoever to establish whether or not these creatures exist.

State and federal wildlife agencies are specifically responsible for the management and welfare of wildlife. Period. It's their responsibility. Period.

Try convincing them.

Pssst.: Better obtain better data.

Better data ain't gonna cut it. Like with you folks, they need their noses rubbed.

I think the courts might convince them to get their own data instead of leaving the entire affair to the hands of amatuers.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Maybe so. And maybe that's the next step.

Then, what's keeping you folks to do so?

Perhaps the poor evidence quality?

Perhaps not being certain the critters are real?

Money, coordination, and differing opinions.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Correct. You cannot fly like Superman, but an uncatalogued primate is.

Agreed. An unknown lemur species at Madagascar is quite plausible. A 3m tall bipedal ape at North America, I would say quite unlikely.

I, too, would say it was unlikely, except for all the reports, aboriginal beliefs, and my own trackway find.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Nope.

Now please illustrate some "con evidence."

Again?
Re-read the threads, please.

You have no "con evidence." What you have are doubts.

Originally Posted by Huntster
1) Not all sasquatch proponents agree with this point, and
2) Funding

Regarding (1), do you folks need some sort of collective agreement?

Nope. What we need is an authority to go forward.

Joe Sixpack filing suit ain't gonna cut it. It has to be someone with "standing."

Regarding (2), if you've got no money, that's mainly because the sheer weakness of the evidence presented. There are a lot of potential sources.

I agree, even if "anonymous."

Originally Posted by Huntster
The legal precedent has been already set. It's just a matter of manipulating it for some good instead of using it to halt development or forward environmental propaganda.

Yes, if you have reliable evidence. So far, you don't.

That's for a jury to decide.

Originally Posted by Huntster
False evidence of all kinds go through the legal system every day. I'm going to hear some in just a couple of hours.

So what?

Its still not allowed.

If it wasn't allowed, I wouldn't hear it.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Frankly, I think the sasquatch researchers that are into the phenomenon seeking fame and/or fortune are the ones people like yourself focus on, and that degenerates the overall effort.

Like the ones who filmed what they claim to be a bigfoot at the ate 60s and tried to make mopney out of it?

Are you referring to Patterson and Gimlin?

I believe thier first stop was with "science."

After being insulted or ignored, yeah..........they brought it to the public.

However, there are a couple of relevant points I would like to add:

(1) "The film was not tampered". This means absolutely nothing and has zero relevance when it comes to provide backing to the position "PGF is not a hoax". Why? Simple. Photographic labs analysis will detect "tamperings" similar to the following ones: double exposure, photographic montages and collages. None of the above would be required to create a PGF hoax. All it would take is P and G to film a fellow wearing a gorilla suit. Again, the "tamperings", double exposure, photographic montages and collages are not required to create a PGF-like movie. Actually they would be quickly found. The most efficient way is to film a fellow in a gorilla suit. The lab will not detect this as "tampering". Want to defend the position "PGF is not a hoax"? OK, go ahead, but at least try to present relevant arguments.

The subject of the film doesn't appear to be a man in a suit, because it's just too real. The motion picture industry would have been hard pressed to create such an illusion then, and the producer of the film was a rodeo rider.

(2) "Unidentified DNA". Sorry, it is not evidence of an unknown species. It may be because contamination, problems on the collection and/or transport of the sample, assay problems or just that the DNA at the sample was already too deteriorated to be of any use. Of course the DNA of a bigfoot (assuming the critetrs are real) will return an "unidentifed" label from an assay. DUH! They must be from a completely new genus or from a genus supposed to be extinct, in both cases, no known DNA will be a perfect match. However, a good assay from a good sample will return something like "unknown species or genus, but with the following information:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae (if bigfeet are related to Australipithecus, Gorilla, Homo and chimps) or Ponginae (if bigfeet are related to orang-utangs and Gigantopithecus)

Source:

"We found some DNA in it, but we don’t know what it is. It's not a human, not a bear nor anything else we have so far been able to identify. It's a mystery and I never thought this would end in a mystery. We have never encountered DNA that we couldn’t recognize before."

I don't know if it was a "good assay" or not. If it was hair, the DNA was likely attached to the root.

It was unidentifiable. It doesn't confirm anything, but it indicates the need for further investigation.

Want to defend the position "bigfeet are real"?

How about if I just propound the position that the phenomenon deserves an official investigation?

OK, go ahead. But at least try to present relevant arguments. Just "unknown" or "unidentified" DNA is as irrelevant as a pro-evidence as to say PGF negatives were not tampered.

It all points to the need for official, funded, and controlled investigation.
 
Ohhhh let's see now.......Greg Long, Daegling, Chris Packham etc etc. They are selling books or DVDs.....and the skeptics lap them up.

Had you said some skeptics lap them up, I'd agree, but the way it's presented now is yet another sweeping-generalization that does not hold true. I'm highly skeptical of a great many claims associated with bigfoot, and I have no use whatsoever for Long or Packham, though I did recently purchase Daegling's Bigfoot Exposed as sort of a companion piece to Meldrum's Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, which I also recently purchased.

Once I finish both, I'll let you know which gave more bang for the buck.

RayG
 
Isn't a skeptic making a claim (such as the PGF is a hoax and shows a man in a suit) no different to anybody else claiming the opposite? A claim is a claim is a claim, whether for or against. The fact that there is no proof either way for the PGF would mean that BOTH sides are making claims. It is therefore just as much up to the skeptic to demonstrate it was a man in a suit as it is up to proponent to demonstrate it wasn't.

No argument from me on that point. If a skeptic is making a claim, any claim, they should be able to back it up. I am skeptical of the film, but I don't believe I've ever claimed the PGF was a hoax. I'm quite willing to have the proponents prove the subject in the 39-year-old film was a real bigfoot, which they have not yet accomplished.

I'll say again, Krantz's reasoning was flawed. The only person who doesn't have to demonstrate anything is the person not making any claims.
You have changed his original reasoning to include a claim he did not make. (no mention of any skeptical hoax claim in his original statement)

Since I make no hoax claim regarding the PGF, his statement is still quite valid when applied to my skepticism.

RayG
 
Joke, son, but I think there are.

Bigfoot 'authorities'? Like who? I'm not aware of anyone that's actually studied a real live bigfoot, either in captivity or in the wild.

While there may be some authorities on bigfoot legends, myths, or purported evidence, anyone claiming to be an authority on a REAL bigfoot should be referred to Frankfurt's On Bullsh*t

RayG
 
.....I'm quite willing to have the proponents prove the subject in the 39-year-old film was a real bigfoot, which they have not yet accomplished.....

Ray, you know as well as I do that such "proof" is not to come.

Even if a real, live sasquatch was to be captured and catalogued, the PG film will never (at least in our lifetimes) be authenticated, especially since so many have so vociferously condemned it.

Film is great, but it will not bring this debate to closure.

It must be a corpse. Nothing else will do, and that's a damned shame.
 
"Film", original or not, isn't going to cut it. Krantz came to that conclusion rather early.

Evidence isn't enough. This forum perfectly illustrates that.

It will have to be a corpse.

I don't think the film alone would constitute proof, and of course even the unedited reels might not constitute proof that the scene wasn't faked, but it would at least put to rest the question of whether the editing was done to conceal fraud. If the complete two reels were to appear and demonstrate that the editing really was simply to cull worthless film and not to remove evidence of fakery, then at least that doubt would be removed.

The corpse might be the only 100 percent proof, but in the meantime, if researchers want the funding and backing to go find one, it seems to me it would help their cause if the current evidence were more compelling, and the full uncut film would seem like a good start. Editing the raw footage at such an early date is suspicious behavior, and if the film is actually what it purports to be, then it's a seriously counterproductive move on the part of those who made it.

As usual, I remain less of a bigfoot denialist than a bigfoot-researcher denialist. If Bigfoot is real, then almost all of the people who have been seeking and promoting him are going to have egg on their faces when he finally does us the favor of dropping dead in somebody's back yard or being run over by a car.
 
......If Bigfoot is real, then almost all of the people who have been seeking and promoting him are going to have egg on their faces when he finally does us the favor of dropping dead in somebody's back yard or being run over by a car.

Now that is among the most fascinating posts I've read in a long time.

Pray tell how proponents of sasquatchery will get egg on their faces after discovery while those who have been openly stating that a sasquatch can't exist will be free of stupidity.
 
Well, I still don't understand how any technological advance can make Patty's feet visible to Meldrum when they were not visible to Napier.

Maybe I need it written down in baby talk?

We have a saying here:

Do I need to draw you a picture?

Unfortunately, that won't work for you. The picture has been provided, and it still doesn't work.

Some folks just can't get the clue, regardless of teaching technique.

Mrs. Huntster is a special education teacher, and she'd likely just send you to the office as unteachable.
 
Now that is among the most fascinating posts I've read in a long time.

Pray tell how proponents of sasquatchery will get egg on their faces after discovery while those who have been openly stating that a sasquatch can't exist will be free of stupidity.

I think an actual documented bigfoot would be a great vindication for amateur bigfoot fanciers like you and Lu, but an embarrassment to the experts and proponents who have done such a shoddy job of finding, proving and documenting the critter; more than it would be to scientists and skeptics who have doubted its existence. Of course those who say it can't exist will also be embarrassed, but those who simply say it is unproven and doubtful should have no problem reversing the position when good evidence appears. It would be especially embarrassing if the critter turns out not to match a lot of the current evidence. What are they going to do if it turns out to be big, hairy, smelly, and have small feet?
 
No argument from me on that point. If a skeptic is making a claim, any claim, they should be able to back it up. I am skeptical of the film, but I don't believe I've ever claimed the PGF was a hoax.

That sounds fair enough, seeing as you are not making an out and out claim that the footage shows a man in a suit.

I'm quite willing to have the proponents prove the subject in the 39-year-old film was a real bigfoot, which they have not yet accomplished.
They have gone a long way towards it though. Further than the 'other' side have in fact.

You have changed his original reasoning to include a claim he did not make. (no mention of any skeptical hoax claim in his original statement). Since I make no hoax claim regarding the PGF, his statement is still quite valid when applied to my skepticism.
RayG
Point taken when applied to you then. However, there are plenty of folks who claim the PGF is an out and out hoax and it is THESE skeptics who have just as much burden to demonstrate their claim as any proponent does. Perhaps I should have made that point clearer than I did.
 
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Had you said some skeptics lap them up, I'd agree, but the way it's presented now is yet another sweeping-generalization that does not hold true.

Well I didn't say ALL skeptics either. It was your reading of what I wrote that brought you to the above conclusion. Just two skeptics amongst the many can be be refered to as 'the skeptics'.

I'm highly skeptical of a great many claims associated with bigfoot, and I have no use whatsoever for Long or Packham, though I did recently purchase Daegling's Bigfoot Exposed as sort of a companion piece to Meldrum's Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, which I also recently purchased.
I have bought neither.;)

Once I finish both, I'll let you know which gave more bang for the buck.

RayG
Okay.
 
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The true original footage would be the developed film as it came out of Roger's camera. I don't think anyone can say that they ever saw this. If P&G put together a hoax, it's likely that the film got edited (spliced). That includes each of the rolls. What could possibly be "found in the scenery" is evidence of editing, discontinuities, timeline problems, etc.

The 2nd Reel is described as containing riding scenes (before the encounter) and the tracks & casting of them (after the encounter). But we often think of the 2nd Reel as the one Roger loaded after he ran out of film after Patty. It shouldn't contain scenes from before the encounter unless it was edited, right?


DeAtley, McClarin and Green saw the "true original", of those still living at the first screening.

The second roll contained shots of Roger making casts, the prints, Roger holding casts....... The first was mostly scenery. If the BBC had found something suspicious on the second roll, don't you think they would have made a big deal out of it?

The riding scenes were on the first roll, before the encounter:

"These are still frame photographs of shots from the first 75 feet of the Patterson/Gimlin film, and shots of the creature as it goes into the forest. The first image shows Patterson (I believe) with the pack horse. You can't really see much, but I thought it was rather picturesque. The next shot shows Gimlin at a distance with the pack horse. Then there are three shots of Patterson with a colorful autumn-forest background. Again, nothing earth-shaking, but intriguing. The next shot shows Gimlin and the pack horse on a dirt road. I will mention here that the nearest paved road to where they were was about 25 miles away.

For certain, the whole region is very colorful in autumn, and this is what inspired Patterson to take movie footage. I don't think he had an inkling that he would see a bigfoot, so just shot footage, or had Gimlin do so, whenever he wished. What was probably going through his mind for his documentary was to take this kind of footage and explain that the region was very primitive and beautiful, and highly suitable for bigfoot existence. To this he would add shots of any footprints he found (at that time or earlier), and then include several interviews with people who had seen the creature. I would have done exactly the same thing."

http://forum.hancockhouse.com/article.php/20060831163051110

Dahinden took a sceptical approach, but found nothing in his investigaion to indicate a hoax.
 
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Bigfoot 'authorities'? Like who? I'm not aware of anyone that's actually studied a real live bigfoot, either in captivity or in the wild.

I include those who have studied the evidence who have credentials in a relevant field.
 
Well, I still don't understand how any technological advance can make Patty's feet visible to Meldrum when they were not visible to Napier.

Maybe I need it written down in baby talk?

Not visible. What do you mean?

Napier dismissed the film on the same grounds he used to dismiss the MIM. He thought there was a ridiculous mixture of human and ape characteristics. They're just right for an Australopithecine, but nothing was known of them below the neck at the time he wrote.
 
Hunster wrote:
Originally Posted by RayG
.....I'm quite willing to have the proponents prove the subject in the 39-year-old film was a real bigfoot, which they have not yet accomplished.....
Ray, you know as well as I do that such "proof" is not to come.

Even if a real, live sasquatch was to be captured and catalogued, the PG film will never (at least in our lifetimes) be authenticated, especially since so many have so vociferously condemned it.

Film is great, but it will not bring this debate to closure.

It must be a corpse. Nothing else will do, and that's a damned shame.

Keep an eye on the analysis of Patty's head. It's not finished yet, and it just might show definitively that a (properly-sized) human head couldn't fit into her cone-shaped head.
Wouldn't that be nice?!
 
You might consider holding your breath if your nose gets rubbed in it.
I will not hold my breath waiting for it.
I think it's never gonna happen.

Maybe the rapture will happen before, or that global apocalypse the woos are always warning us of... Or the alien invasion...

And I have done so by stating that only a corpse will do, not because of my own need, but for the need of those who reject all else, even decent evidence.
Excuse me, what pieces of decent evidence have been presented so far?

Once again, I will say:

Decent footage or stills from a reliable source, such as a mammalogist or wildlife photographer whose carreer and credibility would be destroyed if caught -or just being suspected of being invoved- in a fraud would be very reliable evidence.

If repeated by other (preferably independent) persons, probably even definitive.

If you don't agree, explain why.

Nope. Nor Mr. Moneymaker. Nor anyone else.
So, its OK to perform a detailed evaluation of the evidence before labelling it as reliable. Then, why do you seem not to be at ease with the idea of skeptics/scientists examing it?

Better data ain't gonna cut it. Like with you folks, they need their noses rubbed.
Prove it. Instead of just complaining about "we folks", why don't "you folks" get better evidence and try?

I think the courts might convince them to get their own data instead of leaving the entire affair to the hands of amatuers.
You folks will have to convince the courts first. It'll be fun to watch.

I, too, would say it was unlikely, except for all the reports, aboriginal beliefs, and my own trackway find.
All the above were already discussed ad nauseaum and not enough.

Have they convinced mammalogists and wildlife photographers to carry on som work? Have they convinced wildlife management authorities?

You have no "con evidence." What you have are doubts.
Nope. What I have are requisites or characteristics that a real 3m-tall ape living at North America would ehxibit or produce.

Pretty standard ways to test hypothesis. If the "effects" predicted by the hypothesis are not present, then the hypothesis is not real.

Nope. What we need is an authority to go forward.
Why don't at least some of you folks have it?

Joe Sixpack filing suit ain't gonna cut it. It has to be someone with "standing."
Like a professor from ISU?

That's for a jury to decide.
Better get better evidence to present.

If it wasn't allowed, I wouldn't hear it.
The above statement is debatable.
But tell me, Huntster, evidence suspected of being fraudulent... Is it well received at courts?

Are you referring to Patterson and Gimlin?

I believe thier first stop was with "science."

After being insulted or ignored, yeah..........they brought it to the public.
Sure. Presenting a movie of a guy wearing a gorilla suit is an insult.
Face it: They tried to make money from it. Just like Moneymaker still does.

The subject of the film doesn't appear to be a man in a suit, because it's just too real. The motion picture industry would have been hard pressed to create such an illusion then, and the producer of the film was a rodeo rider.
First lets keep focused:
To say the "negatives were not tampered" is of no use as an argument to back the claim "PGF's subject is a real bigfoot". "Tampering" relates to double exposures, montages and collages, techniches not required to produce what's seen in the movie; techniques that would complicate a hoax attempt and be readilly detected by a photographic lab.

Do you agree or not that the "the nagatives were not tampered" line is useless? If not, state why.

The arguments you used were already touched here and elsewhere. They don't stand a detailed examination. Feel free to search older posts and remember the arguments.

I don't know if it was a "good assay" or not. If it was hair, the DNA was likely attached to the root.

It was unidentifiable. It doesn't confirm anything, but it indicates the need for further investigation.

Keep focus.
Look at the sentences below:
"We found some DNA in it, but we don’t know what it is. It's not a human, not a bear nor anything else we have so far been able to identify. "
The bolds are mine. Compare this with this piece from my earlier post:

a good assay from a good sample will return something like "unknown species or genus, but with the following information:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae (if bigfeet are related to Australipithecus, Gorilla, Homo and chimps) or Ponginae (if bigfeet are related to orang-utangs and Gigantopithecus)
They say its not human, its not bear... This means the result was good enough only to say the same came from an animal of the Mammalia class (that's the best option). Bigfeet (if they are real and Meldrum & Krantz are correct) should be at the Primates order, while bears are at the Carnivora order.

See? As "pro" evidence, its useless for all practical purposes! It can not be used to back the presence of an unknown genus of any mammal.

Its your -and everibody else's- right to defend and try to push forward the claim "bigfeet are real". But if you want to have any success with well-informed persons, you will have to make things right and give the pieces of data the relevance they really may have. Otherwise you will not be helping your own case. Honestly, the real (and worse) "enemies" of the "bigfeet are real" position are some of its very defenders. They make the skeptic's position much more confortable every single time data is misused and overhyped.

The above cited cases are "classic". They trigger the "those guys don't have a clue of what they are talking about" response in persons who know the subjects (photographic techniches and DNA).

Continue to use those lines if you want, but chances are you'll pass as ingorant people.

How about if I just propound the position that the phenomenon deserves an official investigation?
I would consider this as a much more plausible proposal.

However, you still have to defend it, with reliable data.

It all points to the need for official, funded, and controlled investigation.
See above.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Now that is among the most fascinating posts I've read in a long time.

Pray tell how proponents of sasquatchery will get egg on their faces after discovery while those who have been openly stating that a sasquatch can't exist will be free of stupidity.
I think an actual documented bigfoot would be a great vindication for amateur bigfoot fanciers like you and Lu, but an embarrassment to the experts and proponents who have done such a shoddy job of finding, proving and documenting the critter; more than it would be to scientists and skeptics who have doubted its existence.

Well, maybe you're right. As you ought to know, we've been there/done that in the case of the gorilla. Research Paul DuChaillu, and the BS he had to endure, even after providing the first gorilla carcass to western science, and note that timeline coincided with Darwin and the publication of "Origin of Species."

Of course those who say it can't exist will also be embarrassed, but those who simply say it is unproven and doubtful should have no problem reversing the position when good evidence appears. It would be especially embarrassing if the critter turns out not to match a lot of the current evidence. What are they going to do if it turns out to be big, hairy, smelly, and have small feet?

Continue the search for the large footed ones leaving the footprints?
 
Compare Wiki entry on DuChaillu with the entry on gorillas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla).

Du Chaillu's first expeditions to Africa, according to Wikipedia, were in 1855. Wiki's gorilla entry says the type specimen was describe in 1847 by Thomas Staughton Savage (stub on Savage-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_S._Savage). Thus, if this is correct, gorillas were known to "mainstream science" before Du Chaillu.

Sure, we all know Wikipedia has flaws. Someone has time to dig a bit deeper? If its right, then its another comparsion that goes down the drain. If its not, then its one more reason to be carefull with Wikipedia's content.

ETA:
http://arts.anu.edu.au/grovco/Gorilla Biology.pdf
Corroborates the 1847 date.
 
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Well I didn't say ALL skeptics either. It was your reading of what I wrote that brought you to the above conclusion. Just two skeptics amongst the many can be be refered to as 'the skeptics'.

Well, I'm a stickler for people saying exactly what they mean, so technically if you only meant two skeptics out of the many that inhabit this forum, or even this thread, then you should have said some skeptics, a couple of skeptics, or even a few skeptics. Clarity counts. :D

I include those who have studied the evidence who have credentials in a relevant field.

That only makes them an authority in their relevant field and NOT an authority on bigfoot. :cool:

Keep an eye on the analysis of Patty's head. It's not finished yet, and it just might show definitively that a (properly-sized) human head couldn't fit into her cone-shaped head.
Wouldn't that be nice?!

It would be fantabulous, but first I'd like to know how you came up with definitive measurements for Patty. :confused:
RayG
 
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