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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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It's not a question of being fair, it's a question of burden of proof. Who has the burden of proof? The claimant.

RayG

Precisely. The skeptic screaming hoax is as much a 'claimant' as anyone. The person who doesn't claim anything (hoax or authentic) is the ONLY person who shouldn't have to demonstrate anything. Screaming "hoax", when all is said and done, is still a claim.

That Grover Krantz quote is merely his opinion. His opinion is no more correct than mine is.:D
 
My opinion is that its a hoax being kept alive by people that are making money from naïve believers and by the naïve believers themselves.

My opinion is that the claims it was a hoax are being kept alive by people that are making money from naive skeptics and by the naive skeptics themselves.

PGF is suspected to be a hoax.
PGF is also suspected to be authentic.

There are pieces of evidence indicating it might be,
There are pieces of evidence indicating it might not be.

there are a lot of fishy details.
There are many more details that have not been established to have been falsified than there are 'fishy' details. Indeed, there are many details that have been confirmed and corroborated more than there are details that are 'fishy'.

More than enough to dump it in to the garbage can.
In your opion. Your opinion is not shared by most. This is why it is still talked about and discussed endlessly.

Painfull for some, but its the only way.
No it isn't the only way. Dedicated scientists and biologists continue to analyse this piece of footage. YOUR way is not the ONLY way. That's a rather arrogant thing to believe.


At this point, I suspect that even a confession by the PGF hoaxers themselves or the gorilla cloth would not be enough change some people's beliefs...
It's not going to happen. There will be no 'confession' by the 'hoaxers' and no 'gorilla cloth'.
 
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This probably requires a permit.
:rolleyes:

No the airspace aove most bigfeet country is completely free. Anyone can fly into it.

Industry routinely rents IR planes so do nature shows. Why not a bigfeeter?

(note there cannot be just a bigfoot, takes two)
 
This has been done to search for lost or missing people. Those high-tech surveillances do not record any "Bigfoots" while they are looking for humans in these remote forest areas. Prime Bigfoot country never reveals Bigfoot when we are conducting organized searches for missing humans. One ought to wonder how a Bigfoot search would be conducted so that these creatures could be found.

Just what is needed to bring physical confirmation of an animal that would be worth millions if it were confirmed? Even the Bigfoot expedition participants themselves do not look like people who are on the expectant verge of becoming millionaires. It's as if the believers only halfway believe.

Then we must conclude that bigfeet are colder than humans, bigfeet have cold feet.
 
Krantz is an authority now, Ray? How nice.

Out of curiousity, exactly which pieces of best evidence have been shown to be hoaxes?
 
What about G. Blacki, Lu?

I'm sure we've discussed it about 100 times already. Is there something we missed?

It was a Bigfoot-like creature not on the list. It had the size, may have been an omnivore and a biped and was in shooting distance of NA. If Red Pandas could make it, why not a large cold-adapted ape?
 
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Krantz is an authority now? How nice.

Out of curiousity, exactly which pieces of best evidence have been shown to be hoaxes?

Which best pieces of evidence are you referring to ?


It is not a question of the evidence being a hoax, it is a question of the evidence
actually supporting what the claiment says it does..


A footprint without a foot, is not evidence of anything other than a print.


All the thousands of purported Bigfoot prints are not evidence of anything other than the fact that prints can be made .
 
No the airspace aove most bigfeet country is completely free. Anyone can fly into it.

Industry routinely rents IR planes so do nature shows. Why not a bigfeeter?

(note there cannot be just a bigfoot, takes two)

There are probably several thousand. IR has been tried from the ground. It picked up some interesting things, like warm rocks and the glow from the pipe if another BF hunter. The canopy is dense in the habitat, even in the east, and the animals largely nocturnal.

Krantz built a one-man helicopter in order to fly over terrain in Spring when there'd be a chance of winterkill. He was way ahead of you, but the thing wouldn't fly.
 
Nope.

I never scream "hoax" anyway, I mention it calmly.

I'm also still waiting to see the actual PGF before making a final judgement on it.

I'm sure the attorneys in Florida will let you do that. Maybe you and Greg could go together.
 
........He was way ahead of you, but the thing wouldn't fly.

Aww Shucks, those Bigfoot hunters have the darndest luck !

Cameras run out of film, batterys go dead, dogs won't track, home-made choppers won't fly ...:(
______________________________________________________

We need a top ten, I'll start :

Top ten reasons we can't find Squatch ..( Pun not intended, but now that I see it, I think it's pretty good ...)

#10 ... accidentally brought along a 100 lb bag of corn starch instead of plaster..



( I reserve the right to modify # 1, if it's not what I have in mind .. Hint: Save the best for last .. )
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
I'm on the Huntster's side. By default, I find that the "right" side.

The "Huntster's side":

1) If sasquatches never get "discovered", there won't be a bit of sweat off my brow
2) I have nothing invested in this phenomenon
3) I don't matter, neither does my opinion, and I have no responsibility regarding this situation whatsoever

You might want to change the "by default its the right side" part... Leaves no chance for a dialog.

Nope. It stands, because the Huntster's side is flexible. It varies with the evidence and circumstances.

Originally Posted by Huntster
The PG film is nearly unimpeachable. It has moving footage, it incorporates high quality footprints, independent individuals happening on the scene while some evidence is still there, they photograph the evidence too, and none of it is revealed as hoaxed. Yet look at the fussing and BS that goes on here.

Its your opinion.
My opinion is that its a hoax being kept alive by people that are making money from naïve believers and by the naïve believers themselves.

And there we have a pair of opinions.

But I will not say my position is right by default.

I never stated that the PG film 9or any othere evidence) is bonafide by default.

PGF is suspected to be a hoax. There are pieces of evidence indicating it might be, there are a lot of fishy details.

More than enough to dump it in to the garbage can.

Painfull for some, but its the only way.

It is inconclusive, but it's my opinion that it is bonafide.

Originally Posted by Huntster
A photo ain't gonna cut it. It's gotta be a corpse, and it has to be rubbed in a lot of noses.

"Painfull, but may be the only way."

Maybe. Painfull? Perhaps for the bigfoot...

Considering the odor these creatures are reported to emit, it might be painful for the noses that get rubbed, too.

Not to mention the egos attached to the noses...........

Specially when some people try to raise flimsy and/or hoaxed evidence to the status of good or even "nearly unimpeachable" data, its natural to raise the required quality level.

"Raise the required quality level?"

So, as the quality of the evidence rises, so too do the denials?

And thus it is that only a corpse will do.

Originally Posted by Huntster
That's your right, and you might be correct. I'd have to learn about the "expedition."

At this point, I suspect that even a confession by the PGF hoaxers themselves or the gorilla cloth would not be enough change some people's beliefs...

For me it would certainly affect my opinion of that particular piece of evidence.

Originally Posted by Huntster
The authorities with the responsibility of wildlife management should step up to the plate.

I always find amazing how the onus of backing the claim is so quickly moved from the claimer to someone else...

Like I stated above, I have no responsibility whatsoever to establish whether or not these creatures exist.

State and federal wildlife agencies are specifically responsible for the management and welfare of wildlife. Period. It's their responsibility. Period.

But, if you folks think they should act, then its your responsability to force them to do so.

Maybe so. And maybe that's the next step.

The discussion you are having with us, trying to convince us, you should have with them.

Grab all the "reliable" data you have and go see them.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Huntster
If a sasquatch is found, will you be prepared to fly?

If a real bigfoot is found, I will say: WOW! I was wrong! As unlikely as it was, the critters are real. Cool!

But this will not change the fact that the "everything is possible" line is sheer BS.

Correct. You cannot fly like Superman, but an uncatalogued primate is.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Do you reject all such pro-bigfoot evidence "out of hand" and "all day long"?

Do you reject all con evidence like this?

Nope.

Now please illustrate some "con evidence."

Originally Posted by Huntster
How about another example? Recent and very relevant:

They said they'd seen it. Sorta like the thousands of sasquatch sightings. A creature that has yet to be "re-discovered", despite Cornell researchers actively looking (with granted money) for the past two years.

Yup. "It's a significant development", all right. The judicial precedent could be very significant, indeed.

If the lawsuit is found to have merit by the court, than it sets the precedent for sasquatches, too.

If it weren't for a small incovenient detail. The woodpecker has some "advantages" that bigfeet do not have. For example, we knew they existed, there are similar creatures at that particular environment...

Try presenting evidence under suspicious of being a fraud to a court to see the outcome...

The same evidence that will be presented in the above mentioned trial would be presented in a similar sasquatch trial, except more such evidence exists for sasquatches.

In the ivory-billed trial, there are eyewitness testimony and a single, blurry film which is controversial.

In a sasquatch trial, there are hundreds more eyewitness testimoy (including law enforcement officials on official investigations) as well as many footprint casts, and including at least one blurry film which is controversial.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Maybe state wildlife agencies and the US Fish and Wildlife Service can be forced into looking into the matter by the courts....................

OK, but then, please tell me, why you bigfoot paladins have not started to do so?

1) Not all sasquatch proponents agree with this point, and
2) Funding

Maybe its because presenting evidence under suspicious of being a fraud to a court is not a very wise move...

It's just as wise as bringing snail darters and ivory-billed woodpeckers into court.

The snail darter situation (after a favorable ruling) was later proven to be a fraudulent legal tactic used to halt development, yet that very same legal move was repeated many times.

The legal precedent has been already set. It's just a matter of manipulating it for some good instead of using it to halt development or forward environmental propaganda.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Maybe I don't need "experts" to agree.

Maybe a judge will do.....................

Submit the case to a jury. I would like to see it. But remember the issue regarding presenting evidence that may be false...

False evidence of all kinds go through the legal system every day. I'm going to hear some in just a couple of hours.

BTW, why the bigfoot experts dont gather and move on? Because the data is flimsy and entangled with hoaxes... OK, but if it is, then its not reliable and conclusions draw from it such as habitat, behavior, distribution, population, etc. are completely useless.

Frankly, I think the sasquatch researchers that are into the phenomenon seeking fame and/or fortune are the ones people like yourself focus on, and that degenerates the overall effort.

An attempt to poison the well? A "divide-to-conquer" approach? I hope not, for this could be misinterpreted as a sign that you've run out of arguments!

Are you united with Mad Horn?

I'm certainly not united with Beckjord.
 
...A footprint without a foot, is not evidence of anything other than a print.


All the thousands of purported Bigfoot prints are not evidence of anything other than the fact that prints can be made .

Correct. Footprints have been made and found.

That's evidence.
 
My opinion is that the claims it was a hoax are being kept alive by people that are making money from naive skeptics and by the naive skeptics themselves.
Oh, really?
Who do you think is making money selling bigfoot memorabilia to skeptics? Or bigfoot expeditions? DVDs? Books?

PGF is also suspected to be authentic.

Again, what should happen to evidence suspected of being false?

There are many more details that have not been established to have been falsified than there are 'fishy' details. Indeed, there are many details that have been confirmed and corroborated more than there are details that are 'fishy'.
Nope.
There are details that some consider as evidence of not being a hoax, such as the footprints.

In your opion. Your opinion is not shared by most. This is why it is still talked about and discussed endlessly.
Of course, at footer circles, the opinion PGF "is most likely a fraud" is minoritary. So what?

But again I shall ask:
If PGF is so good, why mammalogists and wildlife photographers are not flocking at it?

Because Patty looks like a guy in a gorilla suit?
Because the story is fishy?
Because its suspect of being a fraud?
Because since then no corroborating evidence was found?

No it isn't the only way. Dedicated scientists and biologists continue to analyse this piece of footage. YOUR way is not the ONLY way. That's a rather arrogant thing to believe.
First, its not a "belief". its a conclusion based on what was presented as evidence.

Second, data handling 101 says if the data is bad, then to the garbage can it goes. You'd better get used to the idea of seeing it down there.

Third, the dedicated scientists -as well as the amateurs- haven't managed to bring credibility for it even after all those year. The "event" was not reproduced. It has not been repeated. Why?

Extreme luck? Not only the guys were lucky to film one but to actually see three? And no one else managed to repeat it?

"Oh they were ahead of their time". Come on... No one used their notes, methodology, etc.?

I'll repeat what I said before. Discussing the same old things over and over about such weak piece of evidence is not worthy of my time. Bring something new and we may go ahead. But the same old lines? They've been beaten to death and I haven't seen any convincing argument or evidence that the film shows the real deal.

Call me arrogant, close-minded, denialist, etc. whoever wants to start the ad hominens, feel free to do so.

It's not going to happen. There will be no 'confession' by the 'hoaxers' and no 'gorilla cloth'.

Of course not! There's still plenty of money to be made by the perpetuation of the hoax!
 
I'm sure the attorneys in Florida will let you do that. Maybe you and Greg could go together.

I would actually pay to see those two original rolls of film in a theater as part of a sasquatch documentary.

I would definitely pay $29.95 for a DVD with the 2 rolls on it.
 
This was thrust upon me in the other thread, but I need to include it here..



#9 ... I had my rifle, but I couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger ..

Might as well toss out another.. Help me out here..

#8 Thermal camera batteries drained within one hour (per battery). Recharging took longer than battery drainage, so thermal camera had to be used sparingly -- only when sounds were heard.
 
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