Why why can not Conspiracy theorist answer my one question?

It is interesting that Stundie quotes from a conspiracy site (first time? I guess so, as long as you don't count the 'co-operative research' one), and, as ever, the woowoo site in question is able to come up with gems such as:

That Loizeaux stood trial on charges of illegal campaign contributions casts further doubt on his credibility.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/moltensteel.html

Except that, in the actual article to which 911research (gotta love those names these guys adopt for themselves) the issue of Loizeaux's trial hardly bear out their claim that this should have disqualified him.... for ANYTHING.

Four checks
The amounts involved were small — all told, $4,000 — and no one suggested that the candidate even was aware of the contributions, let alone influenced by them.

But to the prosecutors, it was a matter of principle.

"This is the case about two powerful businessmen who decided to use employees of their own company to funnel money into a federal campaign," Assistant U.S. Attorney Kathleen O. Gavin told jurors in her opening statement in September.

It was the first congressional-campaign contribution case ever tried in the U.S. District for Maryland, according to the defense attorneys.

Witnesses testified that the case against CDI, which has fewer than 20 employees, took shape during an investigation of contributions to Rep. Elijah E. Cummings' 1996 campaign.

Prosecutors claimed the Loizeaux brothers asked four CDI employees to contribute $1,000 apiece to Cummings' campaign because Cummings supported demolition of high-rise public-housing projects, which could mean more business for CDI.

The company then reimbursed each donor, some on the same day they made campaign contributions, the prosecution charged.

It is illegal for a corporation to reimburse employees for making campaign contributions because corporations cannot donate cash to federal campaigns. And it is illegal for anyone to use "straw contributors" to hide the identity of the true donor.

The defense attorneys countered by saying that CDI's payments to the employees were bonuses, not reimbursements.

After a two-year process and a trial that ran intermittently for three weeks, the jury came back in less than two hours — including a break for lunch.

Not guilty. Not guilty. Not guilty.

Federal prosecutors did not return a reporter's calls for comment.

http://tinyurl.com/mgeea
 
I'm aware of what a nano thermite reaction is and I have heard this being used to explain why there was molten metal at the bottom of the rubble, although I'm not a scientist I have always thought this was a ridiculous claim because no plane hit WTC 7, yet there is molten metal underneath there.

For proof off thermal images on WTC7 - Which no plane hit!

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/rubblefires.html - Sorry I'm using a conspiracy site here, but I just clicked on the 1st image I could fine.
Argument from personal incredulity.

This nano thermite reaction at WTC7 is an absurd theory unless someone cares to explain to me how it is not?
Argumentum ad ignorantiam ; unless you care to provide a better substantiation of your claim that it is "an absurd theory".

...
When did I ever say that Chainsaw or Neil said that Thermite was planted in the towers? Or give that impression they believed that!
Maccy's quote made no accusations against you, Neil, or CC; it was a clarification.

You guys are so rabid in your arguments to debunk anything that doesn't fit the offical story, that you make these crazy assumptions.
Straw man

You are again clutching at straws here and although I believe that they were planted, its my opinion based on the evidence presented to me & not necessary the opinion of Neil or Chainsaw!
Then present it in a manner that can be debated clearly; because your opinion doesn't mean squat.

Why would Jones have to prove that this was not a nano thermite reaction? Thats is perposterous! Surely this should be upto the person who suggested it that it could be a nano thermite reaction?? to prove that it was, or at least possible??
That is exactly what they are saying; if it can be shown that a nanothermite reaction is a possible explanation, then the onus is on Jones to defend his assertion and in doing so must show evidence that precludes a nanothermite reaction, or how a nanothermite reaction could not have occurred.

Its an almost impossible scenario for a nano thermite reaction to occur anyway, making it a ridiculous claim.
Evidence?

As ever with you skeptic in your quest to debunk ANYTHING you become blindsided.
Straw man

Surely investigating this should be the job of NIST seeing thats what they were paid to do, but in their ever so thorough investigation of the collapses, they fail to mention it, like it wasn't there?

There is also evidence of Thermite before the towers collapse. http://www.explosive911analysis.com See fig 9 & 10. Which again blows the nano thermite reaction out of the water! Along with no plane hitting WTC7!
12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."
NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.
Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


2 points there, puposely ignored!

It is not Jones job to prove anything, it should be the job of the investigators but seeing as they are doing such a rubbish job, it's left upto to people like Prof Jones to come forward and point out the glaring mistakes and contradictions!
Specific example where Jones has done so?


Sorry but I'm not misrepresenting anything at all. I've asked this question in previous posts (Admittiedly on the wrong thread) and I have read about nano thermite reactions before, but because I'm no scientists, so I do not have the knowledge to dispute it, even though it sounded suspicious to me.

The only answers I've received from the JREFers in here are the A-D ones as I have pointed out, I'm not misrepresenting anything.
You are either failing to understand the answers being provided to you, or you are committing Straw man fallacies. Either way, your list is erroneous.

Now that Neil has done a great hatchet job on you JREFers. I'll leave this one alone!!

No point in directing anything, after Neils thorough explanation, there is no need for me to continue this as Neil proves this Thermite/mate didn't occur naturally. Again it supports MY EVIDENCE (Just mine, nobody elses, i.e. Chainsaw or Neil) that the towers could have been brought down. Please don't ask me to explain because I will go off on track on this thread.
I'll defer to those more knowledgeable in the relevant areas than I to comment on the veracity of Neil's statements.
 
It is interesting that Stundie quotes from a conspiracy site (first time? I guess so, as long as you don't count the 'co-operative research' one), and, as ever, the woowoo site in question is able to come up with gems such as:


http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/moltensteel.html

Except that, in the actual article to which 911research (gotta love those names these guys adopt for themselves) the issue of Loizeaux's trial hardly bear out their claim that this should have disqualified him.... for ANYTHING.



http://tinyurl.com/mgeea

The reference I used from the WooWoo sights were images of the Thermal posts on the Satallite photo and the pictures showing thermite pouring out from the building before it collapsed.

I would never refer yout to a conspiracy site or a debunking site because the both have there own agenda. I have used both sites to establish a picture but I prefer my own research and ideas!
 
I'm aware of what a nano thermite reaction is and I have heard this being used to explain why there was molten metal at the bottom of the rubble, although I'm not a scientist I have always thought this was a ridiculous claim because no plane hit WTC 7, yet there is molten metal underneath there.

For proof off thermal images on WTC7 - Which no plane hit!

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/rubblefires.html - Sorry I'm using a conspiracy site here, but I just clicked on the 1st image I could fine.

Again, I'm going to copy this over to the relevant thread. I'm sure somebody will answer it there.

This nano thermite reaction at WTC7 is an absurd theory unless someone cares to explain to me how it is not?

As I've always said, I'm aways open to new ideas but I think Neils explanation of how it is not possible rests that baby! So if it didn't occur naturally....How did it occur then Maccy? Debunk that one?

What evidence is there that a nano-thermite reaction occurred in WTC7?

When did I ever say that Chainsaw or Neil said that Thermite was planted in the towers? Or give that impression they believed that!

You guys are so rabid in your arguments to debunk anything that doesn't fit the offical story, that you make these crazy assumptions.

You are again clutching at straws here and although I believe that they were planted, its my opinion based on the evidence presented to me & not necessary the opinion of Neil or Chainsaw!

I was trying to clarify what they were saying.

Why would Jones have to prove that this was not a nano thermite reaction? Thats is perposterous! Surely this should be upto the person who suggested it that it could be a nano thermite reaction?? to prove that it was, or at least possible??

Its an almost impossible scenario for a nano thermite reaction to occur anyway, making it a ridiculous claim. As ever with you skeptic in your quest to debunk ANYTHING you become blindsided.

I am far from being convinced that there is any evidence for a thermite reaction. I was just trying to make a summary of crazy chainsaw's theory as it is quite technical and not very brief. I suggest you argue the point with chainsaw.

Surely investigating this should be the job of NIST seeing thats what they were paid to do, but in their ever so thorough investigation of the collapses, they fail to mention it, like it wasn't there?

They didn't find evidence of thermite, that's why they didn't mention it.

There is also evidence of Thermite before the towers collapse. http://www.explosive911analysis.com See fig 9 & 10. Which again blows the nano thermite reaction out of the water! Along with no plane hitting WTC7!

Again, I'm copying this point to the molten metal thread.

2 points there, puposely ignored!

How can I ignore points before you answer them?

It is not Jones job to prove anything...

If he cannot prove his hypothesis, why should we believe it?

...it should be the job of the investigators but seeing as they are doing such a rubbish job, it's left upto to people like Prof Jones to come forward and point out the glaring mistakes and contradictions!

Steven Jones is no longer a professor. Is it your layman's opinion that NIST are doing a rubbish job, or do you have some professional standing to back it up?

Sorry but I'm not misrepresenting anything at all. I've asked this question in previous posts (Admittiedly on the wrong thread) and I have read about nano thermite reactions before, but because I'm no scientists, so I do not have the knowledge to dispute it, even though it sounded suspicious to me.

The only answers I've received from the JREFers in here are the A-D ones as I have pointed out, I'm not misrepresenting anything.

Again, I refer you to this thread.

Now that Neil has done a great hatchet job on you JREFers. I'll leave this one alone!!

Neil has done no such thing, he is engaged in a technical discussion with Crazy Chainsaw about a specific hypothesis of Chainsaw's

No point in directing anything, after Neils thorough explanation, there is no need for me to continue this as Neil proves this Thermite/mate didn't occur naturally. Again it supports MY EVIDENCE (Just mine, nobody elses, i.e. Chainsaw or Neil) that the towers could have been brought down. Please don't ask me to explain because I will go off on track on this thread.

You guys were so quick to debunk this one, but it appears you guys in your desperation to debunk theories, you are now being made too look like the woowoos! :eek:

Nobody has conceded that there even is evidence for Thermite or a varient of it. Likewise nobody has conceded that the molten metal found is steel or that the heat couldn't have been generated by underground fires. Again, all the issues are addressed in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69197

If you don't reply in it, I'll assume that you don't have rebuttals for the points raised in it and are just resorting to rhetoric and generalisation.
 
Argument from personal incredulity.[/qoute]

Maccy was pointing out what Chainsaw and Neil were talking about, I was letting him know I knew what they were talking about.

Agrument from peronal incredulity....Hardly considering I'm not arguing anything at all.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam ; unless you care to provide a better substantiation of your claim that it is "an absurd theory".[/qoute]

Substaniate my claim....Quite simple!! NO PLANE HIT WTC7, yet there are pools of molten metal found like in the other WTC.

Maccy's quote made no accusations against you, Neil, or CC; it was a clarification. [/qoute]

So whats this then....

I don't think either chainsaw or neil believe that thermite was planted in the towers in order to cut through the core columns.


Straw man[/qoute]

I love making straw man comments.

Then present it in a manner that can be debated clearly; because your opinion doesn't mean squat. [/qoute]

If I argued my points on WTC Collapses it would require another thread and we would be going off the subject and I like to keep to the subject.

That is exactly what they are saying; if it can be shown that a nanothermite reaction is a possible explanation, then the onus is on Jones to defend his assertion and in doing so must show evidence that precludes a nanothermite reaction, or how a nanothermite reaction could not have occurred.[/qoute]

Whoever thought a Nano Thermite Reaction could occur, then it is upto them to present the facts. No Prof Jones!

Evidence?[/qoute]

Again no plane hit WTC 7, Neils post arguing how it could not have been possible. Sightings of a thermite reaction before the towers collapsed!! Is that good enough for you.



http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


Specific example where Jones has done so?

Is he not the proponent of a Thermite reaction being used. Something which NIST Ignored. Not sure what you don't understand about that statement.

You are either failing to understand the answers being provided to you, or you are committing Straw man fallacies. Either way, your list is erroneous.

No I am not failing to understand the answers. These are the answers being given. Argumentum ad ignorantiam!!

I'll defer to those more knowledgeable in the relevant areas than I to comment on the veracity of Neil's statements.

Good, lets leave them too it then, but no ones refuted Neils post yet and his argument seem very plausable & water tight, although of course he could be wrong.
 
What evidence is there that a nano-thermite reaction occurred in WTC7?

I dunno seeing as I do not believe in a nano thermite reaction in any of the buildings.


I was trying to clarify what they were saying.
I understood what they were saying too.

I am far from being convinced that there is any evidence for a thermite reaction. I was just trying to make a summary of crazy chainsaw's theory as it is quite technical and not very brief. I suggest you argue the point with chainsaw.

Neil has done that already, he appears to know more about it than I do, so I'll leave that to him.

They didn't find evidence of thermite, that's why they didn't mention it.

They never mentioned the fires under the rubble of WTC and they never look at the possibilities of Thermite.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."
NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.


Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


Again, I'm copying this point to the molten metal thread.



How can I ignore points before you answer them?


If he cannot prove his hypothesis, why should we believe it?
He cannot prove it, because he cannot get to any of the metal. Besides I thought it was a Hypothesis, like Chainsaws thread. An idea!


Steven Jones is no longer a professor. Is it your layman's opinion that NIST are doing a rubbish job, or do you have some professional standing to back it up?

I know he was hounded out of his job, what for expressing his rights to freedom of speech! Because he no longer works at a University, does that know means he is no longer a Proffessor. Not sure how it works in American, but in the UK, if you get sacked or leave a job, you do not lose the title.




Neil has done no such thing, he is engaged in a technical discussion with Crazy Chainsaw about a specific hypothesis of Chainsaw's

And pretty much explained how it was impossible.


Nobody has conceded that there even is evidence for Thermite or a varient of it.

Likewise nobody has conceded that the molten metal found is steel or that the heat couldn't have been generated by underground fires. Again, all the issues are addressed in this thread:

So all the photos of molten steel, fused with concrete is what exactly?? The heat couldn't have been generated by underground fires, because there is nothing hot enough to burn at the tempretures recorded.

If you don't reply in it, I'll assume that you don't have rebuttals for the points raised in it and are just resorting to rhetoric and generalisation.

Like I said, I've read through and there is no point, Neil has provided what I would call a credible argument which debunks the idea of a nanothermite reaction.
 
Like I said, I've read through and there is no point, Neil has provided what I would call a credible argument which debunks the idea of a nanothermite reaction.

You don't need a nanothermite reaction to explain molten metal, that's what the thread explains.
 
The reference I used from the WooWoo sights were images of the Thermal posts on the Satallite photo and the pictures showing thermite pouring out from the building before it collapsed.

I would never refer yout to a conspiracy site or a debunking site because the both have there own agenda. I have used both sites to establish a picture but I prefer my own research and ideas!

So where is your proof of thermite? Find me some thermite being placed in the WTC by anyone and you will have a Pulitzer Prize. Do you think?

Wonder where all the oxygen generators went when they entered the WTC on board 175 and 11?

Does this mean you are a Dr Thermite Jones lemming?
 
You don't need a nanothermite reaction to explain molten metal, that's what the thread explains.

Exactly, I remember the film that I once saw back in the 70s about the building of the world trade center, it showed the fire tests a UL they showed the temperatures, by a Gage thermometer and buy melting both lead aluminum and steel in the room on test of Assemblies, if that film still existed, it would have thrown a monkey wrench in the Cters claims.

Random house education, no longer exists and all the materials have been discarded but you would think that some one would have a copy of that somewhere.

How can you test a building to 2000c as Kevin Ryan suggests when the metal burns at 1350c?
I believe that statement was completely Illogical.

Well I am really not feeling to well and these constant debates, and other stuff wearing me down, and keeping me from other interests I think I will make one last tread a prediction about the Scholars for truth, and then suspend my account for a while.
 
Hi Neil,

A) Its been debunker (With no reference or evidence that shows this)
B) Its the aluminuim and kersone from the jet(Which doesn't explain how the tempratures were hot enough to melt the steels beams)
C) Its a pit fire, did you know pitfires get hot.
D) There were no fires! (even though there is plenty of evidence and witness accounts to show otherwise)

I will warn you, that because your explanation doesn't fit in with the offical story or the debunkers versions, you may like me, maybe labelled a conspiracy theorists, even though I would never consider myself one! Its not like I believe in the Roswell incident or a space beam was used on WTC.

we might get a proper investigation as to what happened on 9/11.

stundie

Who has melted steel beams?
 
For Niel
blackbody2.JPG
, I believe you will know what that is.
 

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