Miguel asks a stupid question

[TragicMonkey]

Let me know when you find a country inhabited only by it's original settlers, who have remained in place ever since they claimed the land from H. Erectus or Neanderthals.

You are supporting my point with this. Claiming ownership of a particular tract of land because of who your ancestors were and when they arrived is foolish, since everybody has the same number ancestors if you go far enough back, and everybody has to be somewhere at any given point. A claim to a thing isn't made more valid by the passage of time.

 

[pipelineaudio]

It's being tried in Texas too, in Farmer's Branch, a suburb of Dallas. Landlords make a good case against it though. It should not be their job to enforce the law.

Also notably, other buisnesses are exempt from such restrictions. There are no such rules to make sure companies don't hire illegal immigrants, only to rent to them. That strikes me as blatant discrimmination against a single type of business. No doubt such laws will be tossed out immediately if they go to court, and rightfully so.

By limiting housing, but not employment to illegals, what Cherokee County and Farmer's Branch are saying is, "We want your services, but we don't want you living near us."

If they had any balls, they'd go after the employers for two reasons:

1) Employers can easily check social security information.

2) Without jobs, there would be no housing issue.

But that won't happen because businesses want cheap labor, and customers want cheap prices. The residents also want somebody to blame when they can't find jobs, and who can they more safely blame than a virtually powerless group of people?

The problem is you have to start SOMEWHERE!

Every time someone tries to start enforcing the laws, someone comes up and says "discrimination"

You cant just snap your fingers and make the whole thing go away

But hey, ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL

there is nothing stopping enforcement on any and all of this at once but political will and hypocrisy

We gotta start somewhere, this is a good start

Same applies to the employers, same excuses as well, not my job to enforce the law etc...

 

[pipelineaudio]

While it is possible to obtain a real social security card fraudulently, it is fairly difficult.

This is very untrue. For 100 dollars I will get 8-12 legit numbers right now at 32nd Street and McDowell, among other places

Also for 100 dollars I can get 3-5 that have matching characteristics (correct sex, color, age) to the person looking for one

Off the top of my head I can think of five places where you can easily, cheaply and safely get these stolen SS's. I like to always mention 32nd and McDowell because it is well known here but there is a political hands off for the cops not to go in there.

 

[skeptifem]

but uh wouldnt the cards be reported stolen?

 

[WildCat]

You are supporting my point with this. Claiming ownership of a particular tract of land because of who your ancestors were and when they arrived is foolish, since everybody has the same number ancestors if you go far enough back, and everybody has to be somewhere at any given point. A claim to a thing isn't made more valid by the passage of time.

Then I have no idea what your point was...

 

[pipelineaudio]

but uh wouldnt the cards be reported stolen?

No, victims of identity theft are usually unaware of it. In some cases things pop up but not always.

Also, no one is after the cards themselves, just the numbers

You can get credit cards there too, but you can imagine, those usually get turned off right away

 

[Tricky]

This is very untrue. For 100 dollars I will get 8-12 legit numbers right now at 32nd Street and McDowell, among other places

Also for 100 dollars I can get 3-5 that have matching characteristics (correct sex, color, age) to the person looking for one

Off the top of my head I can think of five places where you can easily, cheaply and safely get these stolen SS's. I like to always mention 32nd and McDowell because it is well known here but there is a political hands off for the cops not to go in there.

I would say those are "fake" SS cards, not "real" as I specified. I didn't say "realistic". What I meant is that it is difficult (though not impossible) for an illegal alien to obtain a Social Security number (and card) in his own real name. Most don't bother.

No, victims of identity theft are usually unaware of it. In some cases things pop up but not always.

And this is where I say that the government could do something about this if they chose to. It would be incredibly easy to write software that would look for inconsistancies in the use of a Social Security number. For example, if a cardholder were earning income at two different locations in the US. Sure, it is not a dead giveaway, but it should at least send up a red flag to check it out.

I know this is possible because my credit card company has (more than once) called to ask me if a charge was mine, because it didn't fit my "profile". Twice, they've intercepted attempts to use my card number fraudulently without any input from me.

But the US does not do this. Why not? Who would stand to gain if illegals are allowed to work cheaply? Sure the illegals themselves, but their lobby is pretty weak. Who else?

Also, no one is after the cards themselves, just the numbers.

Yes, which is why your comment on how easy it is to get a card in trivial. Getting a "real" number that would not trigger a red flag could be made quite difficult if the government had any compelling reason to set up such a system.

 

[Tricky]

The problem is you have to start SOMEWHERE!

Then start at the source. The demand. Without demand, there is no supply.

But hey, ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL.

That is total BS. All crimes are not the same. Jaywalking is ILLEGAL. Murder is ILLEGAL. JAYWALKING is MURDER? That is stupid. I suspect you know this.

there is nothing stopping enforcement on any and all of this at once but political will and hypocrisy

We gotta start somewhere, this is a good start .

Or maybe a good start would be to pass a law for guest worker programs that would benefit the US as well as the people providing the labor.

However, you and I probably agree on one thing. Children of illegals or guest workers should not automatically be American citizens. The guest worker program would help track foreign labor and close this loophole too.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I would say those are "fake" SS cards, not "real" as I specified. I didn't say "realistic". What I meant is that it is difficult (though not impossible) for an illegal alien to obtain a Social Security number (and card) in his own real name. Most don't bother.

I agree then. Especially with the most dont bother part. Why should they? The real number is all that is required to reap most of the benefits they are after.

And this is where I say that the government could do something about this if they chose to. It would be incredibly easy to write software that would look for inconsistancies in the use of a Social Security number. For example, if a cardholder were earning income at two different locations in the US. Sure, it is not a dead giveaway, but it should at least send up a red flag to check it out.

This would be called anti-latino discrimination. Mark my words

But the US does not do this. Why not? Who would stand to gain if illegals are allowed to work cheaply? Sure the illegals themselves, but their lobby is pretty weak. Who else?

Thats my point exactly, we all know who benefits...well two types of benefits,

one a religious benefit, that being your religion says all people should be free to come in and steal other peoples stuff

and the other benefit an economic one, though VERY short sighted, "hey I can get a cheaper gardner/waiter/nanny/house

Yes, which is why your comment on how easy it is to get a card in trivial. Getting a "real" number that would not trigger a red flag could be made quite difficult if the government had any compelling reason to set up such a system.

First we need the political will

 

[pipelineaudio]

Then start at the source. The demand. Without demand, there is no supply.

This one is HARD to deal with practically. Were trying, but the protest from the left on employment enforcement is a lot more fierce and violent than you might imagine

That is total BS. All crimes are not the same. Jaywalking is ILLEGAL. Murder is ILLEGAL. JAYWALKING is MURDER? That is stupid. I suspect you know this.

No, my point is, both are crimes, both need to be enforced. Selective enforcement means the laws need to be changed. If we have a law, it needs to be enforced...if not then the law needs to be tossed, so people know what their rights are

Or maybe a good start would be to pass a law for guest worker programs that would benefit the US as well as the people providing the labor.

this should be priority number one, and those who have taken upon themselves to come in illegally should be at the bottom of the pile for procuring one of these passes. We dont need more criminals here, we have enough. We DO need more people willing to play by the rules

However, you and I probably agree on one thing. Children of illegals or guest workers should not automatically be American citizens. The guest worker program would help track foreign labor and close this loophole too.

Of course, but youd be surprised at the animosity to this suggestion you might hear

 

[pgwenthold]

This one is HARD to deal with practically. Were trying, but the protest from the left on employment enforcement is a lot more fierce and violent than you might imagine

Yeah, because we know how tough the right is on businesses...

 

[Polaris]

Why couldn't both arguments be made?

I personally see nothing wrong with ignoring stupid laws. I find it perfectly reasonable as long as the offense has no actual victim. Perhaps one step to changing stupid law is to ignore it.

The only real victims I can see here are the people in Mexico who aren't able to leave, and are stuck in a system that won't reform because of the safety valve Mexico City has to let off potentially revolutionary steam.

But that's really not our problem in the US.

 

[Polaris]

You could also call it "justice".

So how many of the current residents of Cherokee, GA were involved in the Trail of Tears? How is it justice for people today to be penalized for something that their ancestors did, especially for the benefit of those who weren't historically wronged?

 

[TragicMonkey]

So how many of the current residents of Cherokee, GA were involved in the Trail of Tears? How is it justice for people today to be penalized for something that their ancestors did, especially for the benefit of those who weren't historically wronged?

How many of the current residents of Cherokee, GA, were involved in settling the land they now occupy? How it is justice for people today to claim entitlement for something that their ancestors did?

You can't have it both ways. You can't declare that you are entitled to occupy a particular tract of land because of what your ancestors did, and at the same time insist that you can't be held accountable for their actions. You are either a free agent, without any ties to the past, or you inherit both the benefits AND the liabilities.

 

[Polaris]

How many of the current residents of Cherokee, GA, were involved in settling the land they now occupy? How it is justice for people today to claim entitlement for something that their ancestors did?

You can't have it both ways. You can't declare that you are entitled to occupy a particular tract of land because of what your ancestors did, and at the same time insist that you can't be held accountable for their actions. You are either a free agent, without any ties to the past, or you inherit both the benefits AND the liabilities.

They can pay for it. I doubt most of the Cherokee, GA citizens inherited their land or are living on it for free.

 

[TragicMonkey]

They can pay for it. I doubt most of the Cherokee, GA citizens inherited their land or are living on it for free.

If you're going to say that it's wealth that creates just claim to occupancy, then any illegal aliens with money are entitled to occupy any land they can buy.

 

[Polaris]

If you're going to say that it's wealth that creates just claim to occupancy, then any illegal aliens with money are entitled to occupy any land they can buy.

As long as there is due compensation to the owners and a willingness to sell I have no problem with that. The transaction is legal. That doesn't make their presence in the US any less illegal. And I'm still waiting to hear why people today should be punished for something done over 100 years ago.

 

[TragicMonkey]

As long as there is due compensation to the owners and a willingness to sell I have no problem with that. The transaction is legal. That doesn't make their presence in the US any less illegal.

I thought you were suggesting that the right to live here depends on ability to pay for the land occupied.

And I'm still waiting to hear why people today should be punished for something done over 100 years ago.

And I'm still waiting to hear why people today should be deemed rightful occupants of a given bit of the Earth's surface because of something done over 100 years ago.

 

[pipelineaudio]

And I'm still waiting to hear why people today should be deemed rightful occupants of a given bit of the Earth's surface because of something done over 100 years ago.

We run into this philisophical hurdle whenever the hawaiian sovereignty issue picks up steam

No easy answer. I guess to me its "lets start from the situation RIGHT NOW as it is and deal with it"

Of course there are some entities that continue to do evil in the same way they did 100 years ago, and to them, its a little different, they just need to go...any redistribution oughtta come from their holdings: Bishop Estate, Castle and Cook, Dillingham, etc...

Although I get REALLY, sometimes criminally irate if I am blocked access to "my" beach, for the most part I look at the houses there and say "hey they bought them fair and sqaure, they played by the rules that were in place at the time and meant no harm to anyone"

Of course when one of those people decides to put a chain across the public beach access, they lose this grace.

The situation there, unlike in the mainland USA improves over time. Hawaiians dont spend their time whining about what the haoles did 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago...they have work to do, not like handout ghetto trash in the lower 48.

 

[b33fj3rky]

Perhaps you could explain how the name Miguel is relevant to the thread's topic?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or did you miss the OP?

While you're at it, you might explain how alcohol abuse is relevant to the thread's topic?

Some people on this thread have an attitude of, "We shouldn't try to stop illegal immigration, because it's harmless." But that's demonstrably untrue.

It's clear you believe that people should be denied shelter if they are here illegally; what isn't clear is if you believe that their families and children should suffer too.

Nobody *should* suffer. But some people make bad decisions which harm their families and children. Life is tough.