Atheism is a faith.

That we came from the Great Green Arkleseizure is irrelevant.
Well, mate, that's the only point I'd dispute with you - the rest of the post, I agree with.

But let me see you hold that same flippancy when the Great White Handkerchief is approaching!
 
It's funny, TA:

You, I and Huntster hold dramatically different world views, yet our opinions on this particular matter seem to be somewhat in sync.

I think in one of the other posts (and it was earlier) so I won't check, I think I got cast with RandFan and couple others... or something.

I can't remember whose side I'm on...

So I'm on my own.

:D
 
It's funny, TA:

You, I and Huntster hold dramatically different world views, yet our opinions on this particular matter seem to be somewhat in sync.

I think in one of the other posts (and it was earlier) so I won't check, I think I got cast with RandFan and couple others... or something.

I can't remember whose side I'm on...

So I'm on my own.

:D
Good stuff!

All as it should be - agreement, disagreement and consensus (at least between the three of us!)

Cheers (I agree also that checking back through the posts in this thread is BAAADD idea, I have read every single one of them and my brain's still reeling from it!)

p.s. my kids love your avatar.
 
:cool:
...snip

I think talking about whether god exists (or not) is the dodge. The God question is outside of, irrelevant to and not useful to the pursuit of science. Science is only atheist if you believe this complete lack of utility is akin to atheism.

We don't know the nature of material reality. We don't. We don't know if we're brains in a vat, or belong to some God-verse. Science is helping us understand the rules of the universe only as we know it. It may break through some day with some Earth-verse shattering discovery that beyond M-theory is some X-theory or God-theory! At that stage, M-theory (or some stand in) may even have been tested!

Science does not act according to one supernatural theory. That we came from the Great Green Arkleseizure is irrelevant. It acts according to the rules that we can discern. It places constraints on God's (FSM's) activities in this universe. It can render specific claims as being so highly unlikely as to have no practical application.

In a sense the god hypothesis is a universal equivalent of the crystal spheres of the old philosophers which explained orbits of the sun and moon as being part of crystal spheres in the sky and the earth at the centre. It was a scientific hypothesis explaining the orbits. We look at it now and evidence we have gathered makes this conclusion obviously false - but until there was evidence against it, it was as good an explanation as any. There was in fact NO evidence for the spheres - it was just speculation. But it worked as a hypothesis of how the world might operate. Science must consider the god hypothesis as a possible explanation of the world so I don't see it as irrelevant to science at all - what I do see is that science has not yet demonstrated any reason for such a hypothesis to be true, and has explained using alternative hypotheses a vast number of the gaps that the god hypothesis sprung up to fill in the first place. The reason the hypothesis persists is a cultural thing not a scientific thing, although there are elements of the world we can't yet explain which the god hypothesis can cling to with vain hope.

This is why I've claimed that atheism is faith-like. Heck, I haven't even said that it's a bad position to hold! I feel (meaning that this isn't knowledge), I feel that lacking anything else to go on, and not being allowed to carry on with your day without telling someone what you are, atheism is a darned sight better than some of the choices. I'd also assert that, frankly, some of the 'supposedly' faithful have acted at times as if they were atheists(in fact, wasn't it Dennett who asserted that humans act practically?).

I think I agree with this point. Atheism is a very convenient handle for people to take that is a clear statement of "what" you are - and actually I deliberately use the term to make it abundantly clear I am NOT religious. The term meets that need very clearly. Another atheist might see me making that claim and come and talk to me to have a conversation as like minded people - that too is another benefit of using the label. I am more than comfortable being called an atheist, and even accepting there is a sense of "organised fervour" around the label - I mean why not?

My point is that atheism is faith-like. It is more faith-like than it is knowledge-like. Trying to break from the fear that some faithful have that science=atheism is relatively straightforward in saying that science has nothing to say about the existence of God, only about some of God's actions. You'll see the word God bandied about rather cavalierly in the communications of 20th C. physicists, perhaps only as turns of phrase, but in no way having the final word on this issue.

If (and in the context of this thread its a relatively big if) by faith you mean belief without evidence then atheism is not faith-like. Science <> atheism, but science to date has shown no evidence of a god, and therefore loosely speaking really is atheistic. Just like most atheists though, if evidence turned up then science would become theistic.
 
I've been busy the last few days and haven't had time to rattle the bb, but I see that a good part of the last few days has been mostly an antagonistic duel. I won't comment on that because a) I don't know and don't wish to know the specifics and b) I would likely be swayed by my personal opinions of the posters.

So let me suggest a different sort of pointless diversion. That is the question of motive. Who wants atheists to declare that their beliefs are "faith"? It has been shown by polling the atheists here that they don't call their beliefs faith. It has been shown etymologically that the word derives from either lack of, or (in some cases) opposition to faith. It has been shown that skepticism in general and atheism which can be regarded as skepticism towards god(s) and religion, is adamant about requiring evidence rather than faith without evidence to support its positions.

So since most of all of the people who actually profess atheism agree that it is not a faith, who is it that so desperately needs to have it called a faith? I don't think you need to look very far. It appears to be those who dislike atheism who want to some sort of tu quoque argument to indicate that the flaws in religion are the same flaws in atheism. The atheist says, "we will only believe in God if there is evidence, not just faith," and the theist counters, "See! Your devotion to evidence is a faith!"

It seems like a sad desperate ploy by theists to drag skeptics of God into a semantical war in order to make the defense of their mythology-based beliefs seem somehow just as rational. It is naugt but a distraction to draw attention away from their empty larder of evidence.

Going to the other side, why is it so important for atheists to respond to this ploy? Other than the observation that people here like to argue, it would seem that keeping atheism from being called a faith is important to them. Well, I guess it is. The word "faith" is one of the important distinctions between woo-wooism and skepticism. It is important not to have that distinction blurred by semantical arguments from theists which range from nitpicky to downright dishonest. It is so important that atheists will tenaciously counter the nitpicking and dishonesty, even full knowing that it will not change the beliefs of the theists, nor cause them to abandon these tactics. Apparently some of us care very much that our reputation is not sullied.
That is a fair question.
My motives were entirely based on challenging the presumed view that atheists were intellectually superior to thiests. where CapelDodger mentioned his hatred for hypocrisy, I have a near undying hatred for arrogance. It is arrogance that causes theists to act as though they are devinely right and can go out and convert/kill at will. It is arrogance that ends debates and discussions, when one side (or both) refuses to even listen to the other out of the shear fact that they can't possibily be wrong. I was challenging the preceived arrogance that I've read on this forum and wanted to test.

This wasn't meant to be a call that atheism is equal to theism in terms of correctness, but rather in terms of succeptibility to arrogance.

Well, that's my take at least.
 
This wasn't meant to be a call that atheism is equal to theism in terms of correctness, but rather in terms of succeptibility to arrogance.

Well, that's my take at least.
Well, I'd certainly help you out with that hypothesis!
 
Well, I guess you would think like that since you clearly don't know what rhetoric is, either!

When you make an incorrect assumption and I correct that assumption, no rhetoric is involved, just facts. You know, most words can be looked up online, nowadays. Maybe you could find a good link and add it to your bookmarks. Here's an American English one for you.
You are getting boring. What facts? You confuse assertions for facts. Just because you say something doesn't make it a fact.
 
Not really. You're the guy who got me so dizzy from the merry-go-ride that I threw up.
I got you dizzy from stating a fact. Moses ordered the killing of children.

Also, you're the guy who refused to recognize and admit that the Old Testament was written by a whole bunch of religious Hebrews, who beseeched God before battle, and praised Him after victories (just like all other religious societies). Nope. You put it all on God Himself.
Not a clue how this excuses genocide or why genocide is in a book that is purported to teach morality.

Yeah, and very easy to understand, when compared to you.
Really? Is homosexuality a sin? Do we stone apostates? Is it ok for Christians to sell their daughters into slavery? Is it ok to own slaves?

How can you say that god is easy to understand? I can't for the life of me tell what is and is not moral based on the bible.

Do you know?
 
My problem with faith based atheism is that it simply makes no sense. Why would you have faith that there is no god? What purpose does it serve?

Peter Atkins suggested that given the infinite possibilities of things to believe we could believe that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. A teapot too small and too close to the sun for us to detect. We can't prove that it is not there so why not believe it? One thing is for sure, there are no religions based on it. So, do I need to have faith that there is no teapot orbiting the sun? No. There is no need to have faith that there is no teapot for the simple reason that there is no reason and no evidence that there is and therefore I simply don't believe in it. End of story. No faith. No belief.

Ahh, but atheists spend much time talking about god and not teapots. Yes, because so many theists spend so much time talking about god and in doing so they have managed to convince a lot of people notions that are in direct conflict with science. There are young earth creationists who believe that the earth was created before the Sumerians invented glue.

To suggest that science and religion are separate is to be disingenuous in a world where the religious believe that god grants miracles counter to the laws of physics and that the Grand Canyon was carved by a flood.

To say that atheism is a faith is to cloud these issues. It is to put religion and science on the same par and they are not.
 
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If atheism is a faith, then there is another one: antidragonism. People, who believe there are no dragons. Very good faith, almost religion.
 
According to one wiki source, the 'a' prefix doesn't mean "no" but rather "not" or "an absence of".
If you have an absence of something, it means there's none of it. And frankly, I took Ancient Greek for five years in secondary school; even if my definition were at odds with What Some Bloke On Wikipedia Wrote, I'm not prepared to defer to that. Heck, it's Wikipedia, give me five minutes and I'll make it say what I want it to. Moreover, what you're trying to do is taking the English translations of elements of a Greek word, and then applying them to each other according to the rules which govern the English language, rather than those which govern Greek.
Thus, "atheist" is not "no theism" but "not theism", a difference which is subtle but important.
The distinction exists, yes, but your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises (even if those were correct, which they're not). As I noted previously, the distinction depends on whether the "a-" reflects on "theism" part, or just the "theos" part.

And is it really important? Nowadays, "atheism" is used to mean both "no god-ism" (so-called "strong" atheism) and "not-godism" ("weak" atheism) and I have no issue with that. I just think your claim that the original meaning is "not-godism" isn't supported by the evidence.

Strong atheism = weak logic. You are indeed arguing from ignorance. You have no basis to conclude there is no god(s) nor will there ever be, considering you have not surveyed all of space and time (if you did that, you'd be the god, thus disproving your own hypothesis).
And once again, this canard gets trotted out. As has been pointed out time and time and time again in this forum, that argument only works if you wield a definition of the term "god" which is watered down to such an extent that it bears zero practical resemblance to the way it is used everywhere except in this kind of forum, and more specifically, in this particular (piss-poor excuse for an) argument.
It is like I may or may not have an object in my desk drawer. You haven't seen it, and the drawer might be locked only to you. Therefore you conclude that any object cannot exist in the drawer (and then have the gall to claim that that is the default position).
It is like you claim to have a twelve-inch ruler locked in your desk drawer. I cannot get into the desk drawer to verify its presence, but I can measure its outer dimensions, and find it measures 8" x 8". Applying the Pythagorean theorem, I conclude that it is physically impossible for a straight 12-inch piece of rigid material (such as wood, metal or plastic, the most common materials used in making rulers) to fit inside the drawer, and I tell you so. You respond by saying that the object is not necessarily straight or rigid, and that you're not using Imperial inches (though you won't specify which type of inch you are using). In other words, the object in your drawer does not have all of the characteristics, and may indeed have none of the characteristics, of the kind of object to which people commonly refer when they speak of a "twelve-inch ruler."

There may or may not be an object of some indeterminate nature in your drawer, and I can't prove there isn't. But since the question was whether there is specifically a twelve-inch ruler in your drawer, that's beside the point. As is your "argument."
 
If you have an absence of something, it means there's none of it.

You are right. I contrasted "not" with "no" to show the difference between "~(X=Y)" and "X=~Y".

And frankly, I took Ancient Greek for five years in secondary school; even if my definition were at odds with What Some Bloke On Wikipedia Wrote, I'm not prepared to defer to that. Heck, it's Wikipedia, give me five minutes and I'll make it say what I want it to.

And I've studied philosophy for 3 years at university, so what? Does it make me any less correct then you? In philosophy (at least, the philosophy I learned), by "atheist" we mean any, and all, non-theists. Not specifically the "no god exists" kind. This has been my point all along. Some atheists have a position of 'faith', but not all, and to claim so is clearly false.

Moreover, what you're trying to do is taking the English translations of elements of a Greek word, and then applying them to each other according to the rules which govern the English language, rather than those which govern Greek.

Yes, of course. Take the word "asexual" for example, it does not mean "no reproduction", it means "not sexual". It covers all cases where things do not reproduce via sexual reproduction. Similarly, "atheist" covers all cases where people are not theists.

The distinction exists, yes, but your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises (even if those were correct, which they're not).

What? Of course it does. This is how 'we' use the word. How is that incorrect?

As I noted previously, the distinction depends on whether the "a-" reflects on "theism" part, or just the "theos" part.

Regardless of the linguistics of the word, it is a fact that the word, at least in philosophical circles I've studied in, means "not theist" not "anti theist".

And is it really important?

IMHO, yes, it is important. Becuase atheists are branded as just as faith based by the general public, no matter what flavour of atheism you ascribe to.

Nowadays, "atheism" is used to mean both "no god-ism" (so-called "strong" atheism) and "not-godism" ("weak" atheism) and I have no issue with that.

Exactly my point. Many different flavours of atheism fall under the 'atheist' catagory, so to say "atheists is a faith based position" is false, because not all of these view are faith based. This has been my point all along.

I just think your claim that the original meaning is "not-godism" isn't supported by the evidence.

I never claimed it was, I claimed that is how it is used now, and used the evidence of the break down of the word to support my claim. Perhaps my analysis of the word is faulty, but that doesn't mean that is not how the word is used today.

Taffer said:
Thus, "atheist" is not "no theism" but "not theism", a difference which is subtle but important. And this is acording to the root of the word, so I would argue this is its 'original' meaning. And even if it is not, it is the literal meaning of the word, and how it is used and defined today in philosophy and metaphysics.

Perhaps my wording was confused, I admit, but I was not claiming that the original meaning of the word actually is "not-godism", but that it seems to be. Like I said, even if the root of the word doesn't mean "not godism" (I still feel it does, based on other words, but anyway), that is how it is used today.
 
You are getting boring. What facts? You confuse assertions for facts. Just because you say something doesn't make it a fact.
Damn, and there was me thinking I wouldn't have to reply to you again, (again), [again], {again}.

See, even though we'd moved on, you just couldn't resist! Enough is enough.

I will explain to you once and for all why I will not, never, no way, no how, bother to stoop down to debating with you. You're a facade, a sponge. I've known plenty of your types in my life and you come across as a classic example of the type, even further emboldened by the faceless computer sitting in front of you as you parrot.

I will assert, just to make sure we keep to words you understand, (this is no simple ad hominem, Randfan, "This is Your Life") that you are no more than a sponge which picks up seemingly intelligent and intellectual paragraphs, sentences and quotes and builds a philosophy around them. You have sufficient intelligence to separate the wheat from the chaff, but no more than that. You've never had an original idea in your life. If I'm going to debate Dawkins, I'll debate him, not his sock-puppet, thanks.

Read this little list, harvested from only HALF of this one, single thread, then tell me that's rhetoric.

Bye bye, RandFan, it's been fun, but your time is up.

I'm using Dawkins argument ...snip...

Dawkins: There is an infinite number of things ...snip...

..snip...and abide by Secular and Humanist Ethics. I think this is a very good code to abide by so I'm happy if they choose that.

I was an ID proponent.

As James Randi regularly points out...snip

...snip...you are at odds with Dennett, Dawkins and Randi who argue ...petty, snip...

...Yes, that is an appeal to authority but it is a damn good appeal. ...snip...
Please see Myth: Atheism is just another religion which thoroughly debunks such a stupid and silly notion.

... which as Dawkins points out is ...

Thanks, I like the quote by the author Laurance Moran of Talk Origins....

Dawkins deals with this quite nicely...snip...

...snip... like Dawkins, Shermer, Randi and Dennett because ...snip...

...snip... considering that Dawkins, Dennett, Pinkerton and others agree....

..snip.. (folks like Hawking, Einstein, Bohr and Pinker) and philosophers (folks like Dennett) ...snip...

...snip.. I was an ID proponent...snip...

...Peter Atkins suggested ...snip...

Read 'em carefully, sunshine, then have a long hard look at yourself and ask if you really should be debating anything, far less religion and atheism.

An appeal to authority isn't always wrong....

:dl:

All that reading and you never bothered opening a dictionary.
 
If you have an absence of something, it means there's none of it. And frankly, I took Ancient Greek for five years in secondary school; even if my definition were at odds with What Some Bloke On Wikipedia Wrote, I'm not prepared to defer to that. Heck, it's Wikipedia, give me five minutes and I'll make it say what I want it to. Moreover, what you're trying to do is taking the English translations of elements of a Greek word, and then applying them to each other according to the rules which govern the English language, rather than those which govern Greek.
The distinction exists, yes, but your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises (even if those were correct, which they're not). As I noted previously, the distinction depends on whether the "a-" reflects on "theism" part, or just the "theos" part.

And is it really important? Nowadays, "atheism" is used to mean both "no god-ism" (so-called "strong" atheism) and "not-godism" ("weak" atheism) and I have no issue with that. I just think your claim that the original meaning is "not-godism" isn't supported by the evidence.

And once again, this canard gets trotted out. As has been pointed out time and time and time again in this forum, that argument only works if you wield a definition of the term "god" which is watered down to such an extent that it bears zero practical resemblance to the way it is used everywhere except in this kind of forum, and more specifically, in this particular (piss-poor excuse for an) argument.
It is like you claim to have a twelve-inch ruler locked in your desk drawer. I cannot get into the desk drawer to verify its presence, but I can measure its outer dimensions, and find it measures 8" x 8". Applying the Pythagorean theorem, I conclude that it is physically impossible for a straight 12-inch piece of rigid material (such as wood, metal or plastic, the most common materials used in making rulers) to fit inside the drawer, and I tell you so. You respond by saying that the object is not necessarily straight or rigid, and that you're not using Imperial inches (though you won't specify which type of inch you are using). In other words, the object in your drawer does not have all of the characteristics, and may indeed have none of the characteristics, of the kind of object to which people commonly refer when they speak of a "twelve-inch ruler."

There may or may not be an object of some indeterminate nature in your drawer, and I can't prove there isn't. But since the question was whether there is specifically a twelve-inch ruler in your drawer, that's beside the point. As is your "argument."
Sorry about the previous post, this was just starting to get interesting again - excellent post, cheers.

Can't argue with any of that, although I think "piss-poor excuse for an argument" is a little harsh - I'll freely admit my part in it's been pretty horrific, but that's all over now! - some of the posts, especially the more recent ones, have covered the ground as well as you do here.
 
Even if what you say is true, The Atheist, you aren't making yourself look much better...

ETA: What ground? I've said, right from the start, that 'atheist' in it's current usage is a catch all phrase for both the "no god" and the "no belief in god" camps. Becuase one of these positions is not based on faith (it is simply a lack of belief), the claim "Atheism is a faith" is clearly false. Now, if you said "people who claim there is no god are acting from faith", then I would agree, but this is not what Huntster (nor the OP, but he has since changed his assertion) said.
 
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Even if what you say is true, The Atheist, you aren't making yourself look much better...
Oh, I know. There comes a point where I just can't keep my fingers still any longer, sorry mate!

I'll answer the rest in a tick, just answering your previous one.
 
Oh, I know. There comes a point where I just can't keep my fingers still any longer, sorry mate!

I'll answer the rest in a tick, just answering your previous one.

Heh, well fair enough I guess. I can't admit I'd do the same as you, but I guess I can't say it's wrong (who's to say what's wrong, after all ;)).
 

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