Atheism is a faith.

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with your definition, The Atheist. There is no "authority" of the english language. If we (i.e. collectively the group of people on this board) explain what we mean by "atheist", a definition which agrees with one dictionary I have already posted, and not with another online dictionary (Huntster's definition), then who are you to say we are wrong? I have posted a link explaining what atheism means. We have explained what the word "atheist" literally means (not, or without, theism). I do not agree with your definition.

I have studied metaphysics and the philosophy of religion. My studies have also confirmed our definition. It appears, I'm afraid, that Huntster is arguing against a strawman.
 
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Forgive me for not having read the whole thread, so if this was covered already, I apologize.

I think there's a big difference between "faith" and "trust". If there's a fire in my house, I trust that the fire department will respond if I call them. It's not an act of faith, it's a trust based on my knowledge of how the fire department works, coupled with their record of responding to fires in a timely manner.

What many people refer to as faith, I refer to as trust.
 
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with your definition, The Atheist. There is no "authority" of the english language. If we (i.e. collectively the group of people on this board) explain what we mean by "atheist", a definition which agrees with one dictionary I have already posted, and not with another online dictionary (Huntster's definition). I have posted a link explaining what atheism means. We have explained what the word "atheist" literally means (not, or without, theism). I do not agree with your definition.
He's got a hair up his a$$. His ego is looking for a debate. A semnatical one seems to suit him fine. Never mind that nearly all prominent atheists disput the silly and stupid notion. Yes, that is an appeal to authority but it is a damn good appeal.

Please see Myth: Atheism is just another religion which thoroughly debunks such a stupid and silly notion.
 
Disagree entirely. I don't conflate anything. I may have been a bit skimpy on details, but I get sick of explaining minutiae which should be sefl-evident. I'll do it anyway, though.

Sorry to have made you 'explain minutiae,' we just don't know each other and don't know if either of us are missing something.

I'm not for a second suggesting that science has given all the answers to all questions, just sufficient to be "beyond reasonable doubt". Much akin to a court of law, I don't require absence of doubt; "beyond reasonable" will do me.As above.

One of the strengths of science is that it can do better than "beyond reasonable doubt." It cannot prove things, but it can shatter those things that people will have held "beyond reasonable doubt."

Check out here for a fun tale:
Kelvin messes up and does a service in the process.

Tell me, at what level of science education is God shown to be true or untrue? Or as I've been getting at, at what level of science education does God get even mentioned at all? Except for the centuries-old idea of being pushed out of gaps, how is God related to science at all?
 
Forgive me for not having read the whole thread, so if this was covered already, I apologize.

I think there's a big difference between "faith" and "trust". If there's a fire in my house, I trust that the fire department will respond if I call them. It's not an act of faith, it's a trust based on my knowledge of how the fire department works, coupled with their record of responding to fires in a timely manner.

What many people refer to as faith, I refer to as trust.
Exactly, and you can call this faith if you want but it is very different from religious faith which as Dawkins points out is blind and based on ancient superstition as opposed to faith borne of observation and experience.
 
Dogdoctor said:
However atheism does not require faith for belief.
The Atheist said:
Really? Have you proven the reasons for atheism yourself, or do you have faith in the work of others?
Proven reasons? My belief that there is no god is based on lack of data indicating there is one. It is not entirely proven but just the best use of available information.
 
One of the strengths of science is that it can do better than "beyond reasonable doubt." It cannot prove things, but it can shatter those things that people will have held "beyond reasonable doubt."
Thanks, I like the quote by the author Laurance Moran of Talk Origins.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/
Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent."
This is what The Atheist doesn't understand. Just because science doesn't hold any truth as absolute doesn't mean that it is all some kind of "faith". Hell no.

"Confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent".
 
I've gotta go for the night, and when I return, this thread will be another 27 pages long, but I'll try a little something else:

We don't know the limits of where science can take us. We seem to push those limits all the time.

Studying science (give it up for physics, peeps! :D ) can put constraints on God's behaviour, such that specific claims can be tested, and egregious errors provisionally rejected.

However, flatly stating NO GOD is a statement about the universe that puts an unwarranted constraint on it.

Best just to leave it alone... ;)
 
However, flatly stating NO GOD is a statement about the universe that puts an unwarranted constraint on it.
Dawkins deals with this quite nicely. Yes, it's possible that there is a god. However there is no reason to believe that one exists anymore than there is reason to believe that there is a tea cup orbiting the sun. It's possible but extremely unlikely. We are all tea pot atheists. We should all, for the very same reasons, be atheistic toward god.
 
Depends on who you ask. I say of course not. It's possible to have been raised an atheist and never thought of about it. Being an atheist doesn't make one reasonable. Sadly there are a number of atheists who are not at all reasonable.
That's what I think could easily happen. Most times, people don't test their views. And when they do, it's not uncommon for them to default into the "I'm ignoring this for now on" mode. BUt that and unreasonableness falls into the people being people category.

But reading the posts here, what is the message gained from seeing athiests disagreeing about what athiesm is? Is there a chance we'll see different denominations of atheism?:) (kidding)

Anyway, would or could this difference of opinion ever escalate to a type of theistic warefare? I doubt it since the differences seem minor and inconsequential. But it depends upon to what level of conviction the differing sides have.
 
Anyway, would or could this difference of opinion ever escalate to a type of theistic warefare? I doubt it since the differences seem minor and inconsequential. But it depends upon to what level of conviction the differing sides have.

Very little. There are far more hotly debated issues in philosophy then this. Just look at the field of metaphysics. Sometimes, you'd think the immaterialists and the materialists were about to go to war with each other! ;)
 
That's what I think could easily happen. Most times, people don't test their views. And when they do, it's not uncommon for them to default into the "I'm ignoring this for now on" mode. BUt that and unreasonableness falls into the people being people category.

But reading the posts here, what is the message gained from seeing athiests disagreeing about what athiesm is? Is there a chance we'll see different denominations of atheism?:) (kidding)

Anyway, would or could this difference of opinion ever escalate to a type of theistic warefare? I doubt it since the differences seem minor and inconsequential. But it depends upon to what level of conviction the differing sides have.
:D

It's funny isn't it. I suspect that someone like The Atheist never questioned his assumptions. On the contrary, he is an atheist simply because he is an atheist. It's why he doesn't engage in argument and has such a fundamental missunderstanding of what atheism actually is. He doesn't share the same view as other atheists like Dawkins, Shermer, Randi and Dennett because he didn't come to not believe he just has never logially examined the notion that there is no god. To him it is a faith.

It's just a guess but I think it is a fair one based on his behavior.
 
To presume nothing else is out there requires faith.

Atheists believe there is nothing out there? Wow, that's a new one for me.

In all actuality, atheists do believe there is something out there. They just choose not personify it or call it a deity. It is simply another aspect of the universe yet to be discovered; that's hardly a reason to call it ''God''. I can understand, however, why you choose to call it that. It seems to be a trend throughout human history to assume that facets of nature yet to be explained are deities. Hell, we used to think the sun was a god!

It's a common mistake; we atheists forgive you.
 
I see your only skill is personal attack. You bring nothing to the discussion but your own ego and your only style is to engage in fallacy. {shrug}
No, certainly not my only skill - my best one, sure! It just seems like the only one since I always seem to get the opportunity to use it when you and I discuss, well, pretty much anything. It all comes back to the point I'm going to mention now, and also in answering your next one - ENGLISH. I use it, you don't. You use a similar facsimile of the language I use, but sufficently different that we have differing uses. While you remain incapable of assimilating that one, simple concept, I'll stick to ad hominem. I'm actually thinking of changing the "Train Wreck" under my name to "ad hominem". Be far more accurate, don't you think?

When you're ever able to point out an actual fallacy, I'll bother answering the other point. My ego's irrelevant - when I'm wrong, (I was, in 1994) I'll freely admit it. When I'm right, I cease caring.
As James Randi regularly points out, a dictionary is to define usage. It's not some law that rules the universe. It's not absolute. It's not the reason to decide what atheism means.
Oh, hell, now Oxford has no choice at all, I can see the headlines now: "American Magician Declares New Meaning of "Atheist"."

A dictionary is no by means absolute, language evolves, just like life and absolutely unlike your arguments. I've already said that one day, the meaning might be changed to what others now think it means. At that stage, I will become aware of that and will change my thinking accordingly. Don't expect it any time soon.
More importantly I note that you are at odds with Dennett, Dawkins and Randi who argue that atheism is not a faith.
:dl:
Sorry, thinktoomuch, I know you hate the dog - as do others - but that's brilliant! On one hand, he argues that atheism isn't a cult and has no leaders, yet here, for the second time in two paragraphs, name-dropping to say I should think like those people because they're the top atheists! I am dead-set LMFAO!

RandFan, that is truly priceless! I guess you can figure why I'd give a flying turkey what those guys think. Rowan Williams, the Pope and the Queen all believe with 100% surety that god exists. They're even more famous than the three you've quoted, in fact, I can cast-iron guarantee that ANY list of human achievers will have far more christians on it than atheists, so nice try - maybe you should take heed of the majority view. No, in fact, completely feeble effort! (But VERY funny)
But hey, it's your ego and Ed knows that you will never let go since you know you are right. A semantical argument that appeals to your ego is paramount. BFD. A tempest in a teapot.
Quite right, amazing how we are at the identical position in two completely different threads! This is more fun than a turkey-shoot! I hope Huntster is sittin' sideline with the Colt .45 at the ready. Semantical argument be damned! I'll argue semantics anytime. YOU are the "skeptic" honey, not me, I know where I stand. Use your own sceptical beliefs to question why you're so adamantly purusing something when you know damned well that you're wrong. All you need to do is swallow that big lump in the throat, ignore my enormous ego and try making statements in keeping with your avowed position - scepticism. Arguing for the sake of arguing an incorrect position is just feeble. (I'm sure I said that to you just mintutes ago!)
Not BLIND FAITH.

Faith based on logic, reason and experience. I hold my faith in these things provisionally. They are not absolute. This has nothing whatsoever to do with religious faith that is blind and based on emotion and nothing else.
Doesn't matter what your faith is based upon - and curiously, mine is based upon exactly the same canons as yours, yet we are so far apart - faith is faith is faith. Again, your inability to accept such a simple concept is stopping you seeing the wood for the trees, so to speak. I feel quite sorry for you.

In parting, I do assure you, I'll miss our tete-a-tetes; you talk about facts and evidence and logic, yet you make the absurd claim that "religious faith is blind and based upon emotion and nothing else." And you used to be in the church? That statement is so appallingly ignorant I really should let Huntster point it out - as I trust he will - but if you think for a second that it's true, then you are even sadder than I thought.
 
Tell me, at what level of science education is God shown to be true or untrue? Or as I've been getting at, at what level of science education does God get even mentioned at all? Except for the centuries-old idea of being pushed out of gaps, how is God related to science at all?
I think that's a "how long is a piece of string" question. My point is that atheists are individuals who have arrived at a position. How much or how little science is needed to get to that point varies. I agree that science and religion aren't necessarily in opposition, but some aspects of science are entirely relevant to whether or not there is a god. I don't believe the curricula for science and religion ever cross.
 
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with your definition, The Atheist.
No sweat, anyone's welcome to agree to disagree.
There is no "authority" of the english language.
There's another area we will have to agree to disagree, because there is.
If we (i.e. collectively the group of people on this board) explain what we mean by "atheist", a definition which agrees with one dictionary I have already posted, and not with another online dictionary (Huntster's definition), then who are you to say we are wrong?
Aha, the very crux of the whole matter. Had the OP stated what "atheism" means in this context, then I have no problem at all - I'd agree to disagree with you and the OP.
I have posted a link explaining what atheism means. We have explained what the word "atheist" literally means (not, or without, theism). I do not agree with your definition.
Ditto the other comments.
I have studied metaphysics and the philosophy of religion. My studies have also confirmed our definition. It appears, I'm afraid, that Huntster is arguing against a strawman.
No he's not! He's arguing his point which has the enviable luxury of being correct in every respect.
 
Never mind that nearly all prominent atheists disput the silly and stupid notion. Yes, that is an appeal to authority but it is a damn good appeal.
Oh my god, stop, please! I am going to dead-set ##ss my pants if you come out with more like that; "It's an argument I'd shoot down in flames if anyone else tried it, but because it's me and I hold those people in high regard, it's a legit and sound move."

Outstanding!
 
Proven reasons? My belief that there is no god is based on lack of data indicating there is one. It is not entirely proven but just the best use of available information.
Well, I think we covered belief equating to faith, so you've covered it nicely.

Cheers
 

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