Balancing skepticism and courtesy

[Chimera]

I became interested in the JREF and skeptical issues about two years ago.

Since then, and increasingly so, I've found that I constantly encounter people who can't or wont think logically, who make ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims, and who have bizarre views about reality.

What's worse, nobody around us seems to realize that there is something wrong.

I know a guy who matter-of-factly states that because he eats only raw vegetables, his body is immune to extreme heat or cold.

I know a (Christian) guy who publicly chastized me online for blogging about atheism, which is "offensive". He says militant atheists are like latent homosexuals who preach against it. His friends all commended him for being brave enough to stick it to me.

I know a lawyer who believes in angels. She also is looking forward to dying so she can see her parents and dog in heaven. This is a respected criminal lawyer, who makes decisions about other people's lives.

My problem is dealing with this issue. Some days it literally tears me up inside. And when I open my mouth about it, I am perceived as a bitch or an idiot, no matter how kind and rational I am. I have lost some friends over issues like this. And, trust me, I am not at all preachy, irritating, or mean about it.

I am sometimes afraid to speak my mind, but how can I not call out hypocritical bullsh&t? How do you do it without getting beat up?

 

[Almo]

Yeah, this is a hugely difficult issue. Recently got in a discussion (didn't degenerate into and argument) with someone about homeopathy. Because this person is a very cool dude who can discuss things without getting all bitchy means neither of us took serious offense at the disagreement from the other.

My opinion is that we should point things out in a calm, matter-of-fact way, and they can take it how they want. The ones who aren't combative about it will deal with it, and the others, well, they can shove it.

 

[brooklyn44]

My rule-of-thumb, for what it's worth.
Let the looneys rave, as long as they don't butt into my space. The person who reamed you out on line needs to be answered in a firm (maybe a bit snarky way). But in general conversation, I turn off the woo talk by changing the subject or redirecting my attention.
Now. when people close to me (mostly family) try to tell me about their "lucky numbers" or why homeopathy is misunderstood and really quite helpful for ...name the disease...or why the beauty of the grand canyon proves the existence of god, or very "sensitive" mediums can communicate with the dead, THEN i do try to engage them in a logical conversation. i must admit, however, i am usually not successful in pointing out logical fallacies. and i don't push too hard to rupture the family ties.

 

[MichelQC]

I guess it depends on who you are talking to. The problem (which I have experienced quite often) is that when you confront some people about whatever belief(s) they entertain, some of then will view it as an insult or will automatically label you as condescending. No matter what fact based argument (or lack off in their case) you might bring you will be considered rude and treated accordingly. Better yet you will be accused of having a "closed mind" and refusing to accept the "evidence" (generally hear say or some farfetched unproven theory). Sometimes (not often in my case anyway), you will meet people who do have an open mind and are willing at least to engage in an honest debate with you. You might not convince them but if you are lucky you will rattle their certainty.

Keep fighting the good fight!

 

[qayak]

It all depends on my mood. Lately I have found that people who come up to me and push their wooiness get both barrels. I don't even give them time to put on their bulletproof vest.

I have done this three times in the last couple of weeks while trying to read The Ancester Tale in the local coffee shop. People come up and comment because it is such a large book and when I explain the book they start in saying how evolution is not true, just a theory, discounts god, is cold, etc.

I don't let the discussion even start. I explain that evolution is too hard for many to understand, others are afraid of the very thought and still others like to fool themselves and believe in warm and fuzzy things. In any case, it is irrelevent to me why someone would choose to believe made up religious stories over evolutionary truth, I don't have time to discuss the issue with morons. That usually does it.

There is a young waitress at the coffee shop and she is JW. I started out by telling her that the book was very hard to understand and her head might explode. She started bugging me to let her read it. I told her that I didn't want to have to explain to her family why her head blew up while she was reading a book I lent her. She started bugging me to lend her any book I thought was good. I hummed and hawed until finally one day I lent her The Demon Haunted World by Sagan. Of course, I made her give me a deposit equal to the price of the book because I said her parents would throw it away if they found it.

She read the book in a few days and brought it back. I gave her the money back but she said "Keep it! What other books do you have?" We started talking about the book and she said "I've never read anything like it!"

I have lent her a couple Feynmen books and now she is reading Science Friction by Shermer. Next will be The Science of Good and Evil. Then I will start her on a Dawkins book

She still goes to church and follows the religion but now she is talking about going to university to take some science courses.

 

[supercorgi]

She read the book in a few days and brought it back. I gave her the money back but she said "Keep it! What other books do you have?" We started talking about the book and she said "I've never read anything like it!"

I have lent her a couple Feynmen books and now she is reading Science Friction by Shermer. Next will be The Science of Good and Evil. Then I will start her on a Dawkins book

She still goes to church and follows the religion but now she is talking about going to university to take some science courses.

Wow! Good for you and good for her! It's refreshing and satisfying when you discover someone who is willing to use their brain to overcome imprinted beliefs like religion. Good for her that she is interested in learning. A very nice story.

 

[kellyb]

There is a young waitress at the coffee shop and she is JW. I started out by telling her that the book was very hard to understand and her head might explode. She started bugging me to let her read it. I told her that I didn't want to have to explain to her family why her head blew up while she was reading a book I lent her. She started bugging me to lend her any book I thought was good. I hummed and hawed until finally one day I lent her The Demon Haunted World by Sagan. Of course, I made her give me a deposit equal to the price of the book because I said her parents would throw it away if they found it.

She read the book in a few days and brought it back. I gave her the money back but she said "Keep it! What other books do you have?" We started talking about the book and she said "I've never read anything like it!"

I have lent her a couple Feynmen books and now she is reading Science Friction by Shermer. Next will be The Science of Good and Evil. Then I will start her on a Dawkins book

She still goes to church and follows the religion but now she is talking about going to university to take some science courses.

Good for you!
I've heard that the very worst thing about being a JW is how horribly intellectually unstimulating it is. All their literature is written on a 6th grade level to ensure that everyone can understand it in the exact same way, and reading/watching stuff that's "bad for your faith/wordly" is seriously frowned upon.

 

[thomps1d]

I know a guy who matter-of-factly states that because he eats only raw vegetables, his body is immune to extreme heat or cold.

Send him on up here for the winter with only a pair of shorts and t-shirt. He'll lose that delusion quickly enough. Or set his pants on fire.

I know a (Christian) guy who publicly chastized me online for blogging about atheism, which is "offensive". He says militant atheists are like latent homosexuals who preach against it. His friends all commended him for being brave enough to stick it to me.

This is one thing that I've never understood. The woos, in all their forms, routinely deride skepticism, atheism, and rational thinking in general, but when an atheist dares to calmly and rationally make observations about the woo, they are immediately labelled "offensive". I suppose that people who believe irrational things think that their particular belief should be above questioning simply because they believe it, but that's a bit silly.

As far as comparing militant atheists to latent homosexuals (I assume he's referring to the tendency of rampant homophobes to be largely latently homosexual), that argument is lacking substance.

Is someone who is pro-animal rights really a latent animal hater? Is a feminist really a latent submissive who just needs to meet the right man? Is a stripper really a latent puritan?

The answer: some of them may be, but most aren't. The keyword, I suppose, is the distinction of "militant". There are really very few militants, at least in the same way that there are militant homophobes. How many people do you see advocating the slaughter or oppression of all religious people simply because they are religious? The sheer, unmitigated hatred that makes somebody so rampantly homophobic could quite easily manifest itself in similar appropriately inverse relationships, but this is something that's not studied.

Some days it literally tears me up inside. And when I open my mouth about it, I am perceived as a bitch or an idiot, no matter how kind and rational I am. I have lost some friends over issues like this.

If you lost them over kindly and rationally explaining your beliefs, then it's safe to say that they weren't friends to begin with.

As a general rule of thumb, I'd say you should always feel free to express yourself calmly, rationally, intelligently, and with compassion. If somebody takes offense to that, it's not your problem - it's theirs.

The bottom line is this - you need to live your life and express your beliefs, and you have every bit as much right to do that as any person does who believes in woo. As long as you're not being a hypocrite and advocating forcibly silencing those types of people, you're well within your rights to simply express your opinion and move on. If you get verbally harassed in your private life, cut those people doing the harassing out of your life. If you get verbally harassed at work, report it to your local employment issues board.

And if you ever get physically harassed or beaten up, report it to the police and press charges against the ones who did it to you.

The only alternative is living a life of fear, and that's not a life that I personally would consider worth living.

 

[elaine]

Good for you!
I've heard that the very worst thing about being a JW is how horribly intellectually unstimulating it is. All their literature is written on a 6th grade level to ensure that everyone can understand it in the exact same way, and reading/watching stuff that's "bad for your faith/wordly" is seriously frowned upon.

Nah, the very worst thing about being a JW, is leaving the organization, at the risk of being ostracized by your own family.

But the above is a close second

 

[elaine]

I used to be much more vocal about things. Now I choose my battles wisely. I usually speak up when someone claims some woo is scientific. I can't help to speak up then.

I try to remember that my road to skepticism and non-belief has taken many a detour.

 

[tkingdoll]

J-No, I think that attitudes like the ones you describe from your friends in your OP are the reason why communities like this flourish. We're all faced with hostility and sometimes anger (and certainly wilful ignorance) when we try and voice reason in the 'real' world, so a lot of us (this is definitely true for myself) find online communities a real haven of sanity (usually ). As I've said before, this is a place where you won't be berated for thinking.

There's nothing you can do about the situations you describe other than keep your patience and smile. If people are curious enough to want to know more, they will come back to you. But if they've already made their minds up, you can't reason them out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

So when people like that frustrate you, just come and hang out here. Unless you like to frequent the Politics section...

 

[a_unique_person]

I am sometimes afraid to speak my mind, but how can I not call out hypocritical bullsh&t? How do you do it without getting beat up?

You could move to a more 'liberal' area of the country you live in. In each country, there develop sub-groups that seem to just spring up. To be attacked for just being an atheist who says he is an atheist and why is not acceptable.

Apart from that, people, besides being inherently intelligent and capable of amazing feats, also seem to be historically stupid about many things, too. Just look at the pyramids, an amazing feat of engineering for such an old society, built to honour a concept of fantasy. That's just the way it's always been. Also known as the human condition.

 

[elaine]

Teek's got it right.

Also, look for others in your area to hang with. Start a thread here, or on Skepchick.org, or Skeptic.com or any of the other skeptic sites. Check out Meetup.com, see if there's an existing group in your area, or start one up. .

This doesn't mean you need to stop hanging out with your current group, Just add to your circle of friends.

 

[slipknotmcfadden]

Last night I was at a bar with a couple friends, and one of them remarked that his girlfriend is taking courses at a local college. "What kind of courses?" I asked.

"Phlebotomy." Wait for it, now...

"Phlebotomy?!" I almost yelled. A couple loners looked up at me. "She's taking a class in phlebotomy?"

"Uh, yeah," he said, not sure what was wrong. I'm usually very soft-spoken, but I'd had a few.

"Phlebotomy is like... astrology! It's bull[feces]! You mean to tell me she's actually... oh wait..." Everyone's looking at me now.

"What?"

"I got it confused with phrenology. No, phlebotomy's cool, that's like taking blood and stuff."

"Yeah, that's what she does."

"Ok, I was thinking phrenology. Sorry everyone. Go about your business." I lit up a cigarette. "My fault."

 

[Pompeii]

My new response to woo-talk/silly-cures/etc. is to say "If only it were that simple," and smile.

I used to identify myself as agnostic. Then someone said agnostics are just weak atheists, and I decided I'm not a weak anything. I also decided that while I'm technically agnostic (I don't really "know" anything with 100 percent certainty) I'm an atheist when it comes to the Santa-Claus/evil-parent god, and that's what most people mean when they use the word.

Then Ron Reagan said on national TV that he is inelectible because he's an atheist. I thought: If atheists are that hated, it's time to stand with my sisters and brothers. Time to come out!

 

[qayak]

Good for you!
I've heard that the very worst thing about being a JW is how horribly intellectually unstimulating it is. All their literature is written on a 6th grade level to ensure that everyone can understand it in the exact same way, and reading/watching stuff that's "bad for your faith/wordly" is seriously frowned upon.

The fun thing is that I chose Sagan and Feynmen because the JW literature often misquotes them and she would get the chance to read some of the quotes in context.

 

[qayak]

Nah, the very worst thing about being a JW, is leaving the organization, at the risk of being ostracized by your own family.

The yearbook from my highschool graduation is dedicated to a young girl who committed suicide over this. She went on a date when she was 17 and the next day in church her parents stood up and told everyone that she was a whore who had wandered away from the path of god. She was degraded by the whole congregation with her family leading the attack. She walked out of the service, went home and hung herself.

With a family like that, who needs enemies?

 

[lister]

J-No, I think we can all sympathise with you on this one, although I haven't personally had such extreme abuse. (Had lots of general abuse and scorn though )

Currently I still try and stay calm, rational and polite. At least in online discussions anyway where I have a chance to think about my answer (And cool down a bit too if they get to me!). I very rarely discuss such things face to face, but when I do I am prone to get frustrated more quickly.

However, I have to admit that although calm and polite is the best way in the long run, sometimes I just LONG to let rip. The wave after wave of sheeplike ignorance just makes me want to scream sometimes! I will spend 30 mins crafting a careful reply that patiently explains that (say) Reiki is just a placebo affect, and explain the regression fallacy, and how anecdotal evidence is worthless because all our minds are affected by such things. I normally then get post after post of anecdote and how I "shouldn't knock it till I've tried it"! I just want to scream DIDN'T YOU READ A WORD OF WHAT I JUST WROTE! ARGH!

<deep breaths>
Sorry for the rant. As others have said, it is only forums like this that keep me from going insane

If you can keep your temper though, I've found that being overly calm and polite is a winner in itself because getting you wound up enough to resort to sniping is usually the only way they can win the argument. I often take an evil pleasure in appearing deliberately naive to their little swipes and keeping the argument on track. These threads normally then peter out as they cannot debate my points.

They will often try and bow out with a parting shot that doesn't actually say anything specific so I cannot argue against it, but at the same time paints my view in a bad light (Thus they "win"). I'm afraid I'm tenatious enough never to let these go unanswered, usually in the same slightly naive politeness such as "I'm not sure what you mean by that statement, but if I have stated something inaccurate then please bring it to my attention". This is usually the last post in the thread.

In fact it's become perversely amusing to me when I spot them starting to wriggle and change the subject or end the thread by any means possible. It does take a LOT of patience and an icy will sometimes.

Very very occasionally I will get someone who can actually debate a subject properly. In such cases the discussion usually becomes a pleasure rather than an exercise in frustration, even if we don't change each others' minds.

Blimey, I've rambled on a bit. Soz! It probably sounds very condescending too, so I will end by stating that most people on this forum could run rings around me in a debate! (Maybe that's what is so frustrating - most people don't even try to debate - they just repeat their mantra at you or get "offended")

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has found the opposite technique bear fruit (ie open derision). Qayak, I found your story most interesting and cheering. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[elaine]

The yearbook from my highschool graduation is dedicated to a young girl who committed suicide over this. She went on a date when she was 17 and the next day in church her parents stood up and told everyone that she was a whore who had wandered away from the path of god. She was degraded by the whole congregation with her family leading the attack. She walked out of the service, went home and hung herself.

With a family like that, who needs enemies?

No kidding....

 

[Minarvia]

I, like J-No, often feel frustrated at people who don't even seem to want to consider that their attitudes and beliefs may not be infallible. My mother is one of them. I sometimes, and always very nicely, ask her WHY she believes in Jesus and the Bible and all she says is "that's how we were raised." I ask her if she ever thinks otherwise and she says no and won't talk further of it. I love her dearly, of course, but I have always asked questions about everything and she doesn't even care. It makes me sad, but I definately won't make a battle out of it. I like to think and learn, and she doesn't. We just accept that in each other.
By the way, risking sounding like the total newb I am...what does JW mean?