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Balancing skepticism and courtesy

qayak said:
The yearbook from my highschool graduation is dedicated to a young girl who committed suicide over this. She went on a date when she was 17 and the next day in church her parents stood up and told everyone that she was a whore who had wandered away from the path of god. She was degraded by the whole congregation with her family leading the attack. She walked out of the service, went home and hung herself.

With a family like that, who needs enemies?
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Joobz, still think "evil" is too cartoony and strong a word to describe religion?
 
Polaris said:
Joobz, still think "evil" is too cartoony and strong a word to describe religion?
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How'd you know I would check this thread?:)
That is horrific and I can't and won't justify it. I blame the people involved and the application of JW, but not religion as a whole. The set of doctrines someone uses to create such a mess could easily be from anything ideology and not just religion. Let me use our famed communism analogy (which I agree now, isn't an example of atheist oppression), but it is an example of ideological oppression. When family members turned in other members for being a dissident, it's the person's fault and USSR form of communism. But it's not government's fault or communism in general.

---
Now, to address the OP. If possible, always try to take the highroad. It will be the only way you can get your ideas across to someone willing to listen. As a recipient of a lashing, it's hard to not close yourself off to ideas when under a presumed assault.
 
Yep, I've been called arrogant and so forth. I will often comment that I think it is more arrogant to think you know there is a god (and what he wants etc.). I find it interesting that they are willing to feel affronted by my lack of respect for their beliefs--without ever showing an inkling of interest in my feelings or my beliefs. And I'm willing to consider all evidence for anything anyone wishes to have me believe, and I'm more than willing to provide evidence for any assertion I make. I would be glad to tell people why I don't believe in their god (or any invisible immeasurable entities of any kind--not gods, demons, ghosts, souls, thetans, fairies, succubi, angels, etc. ) All evidence seems to indicate that consciousness of any sort requires a living brain.

I like the Penn Jillette approach where you just roll your eyes and say, "you don't really believe that stuff, do you?", but I am small and female and afraid people might throw things at me. There is no reasoning with "faith". And the faithful have been convinced that they have oodles of goodies waiting for them if they believe the right unbelievable story--with extra points for getting others to believe (probably tripled for converting an atheist!).

Sometimes I say, why should I take what you have to say more seriously than I take what Tom Cruise says about chemical imbalances and thetans...or what the hijackers say about what god (Allah) wants...or what my own parents told me about the fat guy who delivers presents to good girls and boys each year (isn't that sort of bribing kids to like religion--presents=jesus?) Religion makes no sense.
 
articulett said:
Sometimes I say, why should I take what you have to say more seriously than I take what Tom Cruise says about chemical imbalances and thetans...or what the hijackers say about what god (Allah) wants...or what my own parents told me about the fat guy who delivers presents to good girls and boys each year (isn't that sort of bribing kids to like religion--presents=jesus?) Religion makes no sense.
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I used to be religious when I was in college. But as hard as I tried to become one of the faithful, I just kept having problems with all I was reading and being told. I asked many questions and no-one ever had any satisfactory answers. Or sometimes they didn't even try to answer. As much as I am a skeptic now, I do still have fond memories of Father Jim never once trying to dissuade me from asking questions and he did his level best to answer me. Funny, the priest was the one person who was actually respectful and tolerant towards me and actually listened and tried to understand me.
Nowadays, I have to try harder to remain courteous and to be careful around those who think I'm hopeless as well as "faithless."
Sigh...tho more often I find myself hoping the topics don't even come up.
 
Minarvia said:
I used to be religious when I was in college. But as hard as I tried to become one of the faithful, I just kept having problems with all I was reading and being told. I asked many questions and no-one ever had any satisfactory answers. Or sometimes they didn't even try to answer. As much as I am a skeptic now, I do still have fond memories of Father Jim never once trying to dissuade me from asking questions and he did his level best to answer me. Funny, the priest was the one person who was actually respectful and tolerant towards me and actually listened and tried to understand me.
Nowadays, I have to try harder to remain courteous and to be careful around those who think I'm hopeless as well as "faithless."
Sigh...tho more often I find myself hoping the topics don't even come up.
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Sometimes I'll just say, I have trouble believing in souls. There is this guy named Clive Wearing (you can google him) whose hippocampus was destroyed from encephalitis, and he can't make any new memories--so he always feels as if he just woke up from a coma. He cries when he sees his kids, because he missed seeing them grow up--only, he didn't. He just can't make any new memories. So he's in a perpetual twilight zone that he can not know he's in.

This has been the case for over 20 years...and there are documentaries about him. It made me think 2 things--the brain will "lie" to you to try and make sense of this world (confabulation--a well studied phenomena) and how can there be such thing as a soul when you need a working hippocampus to remember anything--and a working brain to think and feel and learn.

Oddly enough, his wife has become more religious.

The thing about Scientific truths is that anyone can understand them no matter what they believe--there is no reward for "just believing", only ignorance if you don't. And questions are encouraged and answers never come through divine means. Like math, science is the same no matter what language you speak. There are lots and lots of claims and beliefs--all sorts of woo (including jesus woo (tee-hee))--how should one even pick one over the other? Lots of religions are based on revelations, feelings, faith, inner knowingness, inspired texts, and they all contradict one another. The only thing that makes sense to me is to go where the evidence leads. Faith is blind...it leads to mystery and more confusion...and down all sorts of diverging paths. One seems as likely to be true as any other given their non-reliance on evidence. Even as a kid, that confused me. How did people distinguish false prophets from real ones and voices in their head from voices from god or whatever?

Sometimes I'll tell my religious family members that they should be extra nice to me, since, according to their religion, I'll be spending eternity in hell (of course, if the Muslims are right, they'll be there with me for believing in a false god :) ). Besides, I remind them, God is all-knowing...he already knows how it's all going to work out...and he's all powerful, so they don't need to fight his battles for him.

They think nothing of including me in statements like starting sentences with, "of course we were all born in sin..." and then get uppity when I respectfully disagree. It would be easier to remain silent if I wasn't included in their "opinion stated as fact"--but believers presume everyone believes. They say things like "we'll pray for you" and "thank god you weren't hurt"...

And don't you think it might have been a good idea if someone asked the hijackers how they were so certain they could experience sex with virgins (or anything else) after immolating themselves? The hijackers were praying to their God just as the passengers were praying to theirs as the planes went down.

Sometimes the holier than thou say "I'll pray for you", and I respond, "thanks, and I'll think for you."

When people try to hand me religious flyers and I refuse, they say, "god loves you anyhow"; I respond, "I'm sure she does". Maybe next time I'll hand out my own flyers:

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/publicity&promotion/pamphlets.html

Who knows, I may save some vulnerable minds from stultifying ignorance...
 
articulett said:
Sometimes I'll tell my religious family members that they should be extra nice to me, since, according to their religion, I'll be spending eternity in hell.
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I love it!

articulett said:
Sometimes the holier than thou say "I'll pray for you", and I respond, "thanks, and I'll think for you."
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You are the queen of snappy comebacks! Hey, you live in my city, too. Have we met? Maybe I can spend a day with you and learn the ways of eloquent retorts. ;)

Jen
 
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articulett said:
Sometimes the holier than thou say "I'll pray for you", and I respond, "thanks, and I'll think for you."
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That is brilliant! I hope you don't mind but I am going to steal it and not even give you any credit. :D
 
articulett said:
Sometimes I'll tell my religious family members that they should be extra nice to me, since, according to their religion, I'll be spending eternity in hell (of course, if the Muslims are right, they'll be there with me for believing in a false god :) ). Besides, I remind them, God is all-knowing...he already knows how it's all going to work out...and he's all powerful, so they don't need to fight his battles for him.

Sometimes the holier than thou say "I'll pray for you", and I respond, "thanks, and I'll think for you."
QUOTE]

That makes so much sense. Much more sense than my religious famiy members and friends do.
And I checked out your site...it's great! :D

Oh, and totally off topic...I have to say that I am learning a lot from this forum and people are being so much friendlier than I expected.
I don't believe in TAPS (that Ghost Hunters show) but I enjoy the show and watching the team and I joined their forum and the older members there seem to really look down on the newer members and barely acknowledge us at all, or are rude to us. I give up. I only had a few posts there, and nothing inflamatory at all. I just answered a couple of peoples questions and the more I read the less welcome I felt and saw that other new members there feel much the same.
That's okay. There are better places!
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elaine said:
Teek's got it right.

Also, look for others in your area to hang with. Start a thread here, or on Skepchick.org, or Skeptic.com or any of the other skeptic sites. Check out Meetup.com, see if there's an existing group in your area, or start one up. :) .

This doesn't mean you need to stop hanging out with your current group, Just add to your circle of friends.
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Thanks Elaine. I am part of a local Freethought Meetup; I'm actually going to an event today. I live in Vegas, so TAM is an annual event for me too. I'm fine when I'm hanging out with intelligent, reasonable people.
 
qayak said:
The yearbook from my highschool graduation is dedicated to a young girl who committed suicide over this. She went on a date when she was 17 and the next day in church her parents stood up and told everyone that she was a whore who had wandered away from the path of god. She was degraded by the whole congregation with her family leading the attack. She walked out of the service, went home and hung herself.

With a family like that, who needs enemies?
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That is absolutely horrid! That poor girl! Do you happen to know how her family reacted to this? Have they learned anything? I would think that they were heartbroken and never meant for such a thing to happen. If they have other children I hope they will be raised with more love and acceptance for who they are.
 
Minarvia said:
That is absolutely horrid! That poor girl! Do you happen to know how her family reacted to this? Have they learned anything? I would think that they were heartbroken and never meant for such a thing to happen. If they have other children I hope they will be raised with more love and acceptance for who they are.
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If they have other children I hope those kids are removed from such a place by the State and given to actual loving parents.

And then I hope the congregation is vaporized by a meteor and all the non-JWs say it was God's will for their un-Christian behavior.
 
Minarvia said:
That is absolutely horrid! That poor girl! Do you happen to know how her family reacted to this?
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I knew the girl, Sandy,but I didn't know the family at all. They lived two blocks away but I only talked to Sandy during class a few times. She was very nice and very pretty.

After the incident there were not a lot of her friends that went and offered condolences to her parents. I know there were two girls at least who went to the funeral although the school told us it was open to family members only. I didn't hear what happened there.
 
Polaris said:
If they have other children I hope those kids are removed from such a place by the State and given to actual loving parents.
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She had a younger brother that I know of. He was not taken from the home.
 
J-No said:
I love it!



You are the queen of snappy comebacks! Hey, you live in my city, too. Have we met? Maybe I can spend a day with you and learn the ways of eloquent retorts. ;)

Jen
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I'm assembling on Wednesday morning at TAM5--and if we haven't met...I'll make an effort at TAM5 for sure. My snappy comebacks often come from other sources...or I think of them after a particularly annoying conversation and remember them for next time.

But, it hasn't won me many friends amongst the faithful, I must caution. (However, for some reason, I don't feel any loss--and I feel plenty fulfilled and moral despite their dire warnings.)

I care about the truth--facts. I remind people that I don't care about their opinions anymore than they care about mine (for some reason the religious think you are supposed to give their opinions special consideration...while they never ask you yours.) I'm always interested in evidence...and always eager to share evidence when asked. Who knows...good evidence might even get me to rethink my view. However, the faithful are never interested in my evidence and never present anything new of their own. Just the same ol' stuff (you can't be moral without god...you can't disprove god...people have believed in gods for eons...blah, blah, blah)
 
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