Another Steel-Framed Building Collapses Due to Fire

Russell, you say you've read the FDNY accounts that I compiled in my WTC 7 paper. Based on those accounts, how representative would you say your "WTC 7 north side" photo is of the fires that developed in that building?
 
wind3.jpg


To be fair, I did forget about the fires on the other side of WTC 7.

I am having a hard time making out the concrete between the steel columns here.
 
uk_dave said:
Reinforced concrete, russell

Reinforced concrete.

The steel structure failed within 90 minutes
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Arup Fire Safety Engineering says
The central concrete core appeared to perform well in the fire and on initial observations seems to have played a major role in ensuring the stability of the building throughout the incident. The role of cores in multiple floor fires is now an immediate area of study required for the industry, and Arup have commenced investigating this issue.
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Russell Pickering said:
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lc2/wind3.jpg

To be fair, I did forget about the fires on the other side of WTC 7.

I am having a hard time making out the concrete between the steel columns here.
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You avoided my question, and instead showed a photo of WTC 7's east side. I'll ask one more time. If you don't want answer, please say so.

Russell, you say you've read the FDNY accounts that I compiled in my WTC 7 paper. Based on those accounts, how representative would you say your "WTC 7 north and east side" photos are of the fires that developed in that building?
 
einsteen said:
allright then, but then you can also not use this building as a example for wtc.

I know the story of course, the combination of damage and fire. The damage makes it weak and finally fire brought it down an hour later after it was damaged. But why is there absolute silence for an hour and no between state, the stories don't make it plausible.
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And this is why it doesn't make sense to you, because you have a false understanding of what happened.

There was not silence for an hour. There are NUMEROUS reports of a progression of structural failure, from numerous sources.

The NYPD Aviation Unit.
The FDNY Chiefs in the building lobbies.
People trapped in the buildings above collapse.
Survivors, victims, and first responders who reported explosions and other loud noises in the buildings.

All of these sources provide evidence that the failure of the structure occured gradually over some time. However this "Creeping" failure is not going to happen perpetually. At some point a critical failure point is reached, at which time you get the initiation of a global collapse.

But to say that the structure's integrity remained unchanged after impact, and then abruptly failed some time later, is absolutely false.

-Gumboot
 
Gravy said:
Russell, you say you've read the FDNY accounts that I compiled in my WTC 7 paper. Based on those accounts, how representative would you say your "WTC 7 north side" photo is of the fires that developed in that building?
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I am a visual person.

Did I miss a picture with more flame evident at WTC 7?

Please post it so I can see.
 
Russell Pickering said:
I am a visual person.

Did I miss a picture with more flame evident at WTC 7?

Please post it so I can see.
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So you refuse to consider the many accounts of the FDNY. The people who you say are the most knowledgeable about high-rise fires.

Wow.

I don't know why you do that, especially since you were a firefighter for years. I guess we all have our problems.

As you know, the south side of WTC 7 was largely obscured by the enormous volume of smoke emanating from it. Because of the enormous fires inside.

8790454afe1977e4e.jpg

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Table 1 Estimated time frame of fire development (NILIM 2005)​



Fire started at the 21st Floor 23:00


After receiving a fire signal, the security guards went to the 21st floor and attempting to fight the fire before giving up 23:05 ~ 23:20


Fire brigade was called 23:21


Fire brigade arrived 23:25


Fire brigade started to fight the fire (news report) 23:30


All floors above the 21st floor were in fire (news report) 00:00


Fire brigade retreated and adopted a defensive position, preventing fire spread to adjacent buildings 02:00


Fire spread below the 17th floor 02:15


Chunks of facade started falling off (news report) 03:30


Fire spread below 16th floor, crossing over the upper technical floor 04:00


Floors at upper level collapsed (news report) 05:30

http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pr...Study/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/default.htm
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​
From this report I found it looked like it was actually 6 1/2 hours until a partial collapse?​
 
When will you be addressing the expert eyewitness accounts of the fires and damage in WTC 7, ex-firefighter Russell?
 
Gravy said:
So you refuse to consider the many accounts of the FDNY. The people who you say are the most knowledgeable about high-rise fires.

Wow.

I don't know why you do that, especially since you were a firefighter for years. I guess we all have our problems.

As you know, the south side of WTC 7 was largely obscured by the enormous volume of smoke emanating from it. Because of the enormous fires inside.

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ENORMOUS? Now your resorting to word misuse?

That is very indicative of a smothered fire.

I want to see flame.

Also, FEMA said the massive energy potential in the diesel at WTC 7 was only a low "probability" of fueling the fires enough to collapse the building.

How come the near equivelent of diesel worked so well only two blocks away?
 
My mistake, I was reading the time of collapse as time from start of fire reaching that part of structure, rather than actual time of day.

oooops! :duck:
 
uk_dave said:
My mistake, I was reading the time of collapse as time from start of fire reaching that part of structure, rather than actual time of day.

oooops! :duck:
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No problem. I make mistakes too.

Only Gravy doesn't I guess.
 
Photos of fire at WTC 7 please.

Also, in the actual collapse photos and video where are all the sparks and fire getting blown all over?
 
Russell Pickering said:
I am a visual person.

Did I miss a picture with more flame evident at WTC 7?

Please post it so I can see.
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Damn I just lost a large post.

However in short I agree with you regarding the false comparision at the beginning.

However the large fire photo (Windsor) is not needed as you only need a concentrated fire in a specific location. The 5th floor didn't have windows either.

Honestly I don't believe these "huge fires", large smoke posts that you see endlessly across forums are really crucial to debate.

Also I suggest you read up on why NIST believes the building fell. Sunder states the working hypothesis is that the pressurized fuel line was supplying fuel to the fire for a long period of time. The generators located on the fifth floor connected to fuel tanks in the basement.

I also suggest that you re-read that FEMA section you pointed out. There is some very good information under 5.6.2 paragraph 2-3

The structural elements most likely to have initiated the observed collapse are the transfer trusses between floors 5 to 7,located on lower floors under the east mechanical penthouse close to the fault/kink location. If the collapse initiated at these transfer trusses, this would explain why the building imploded, producing a limited debris field as the exterior walls were pulled downward. The collapse may have then spread to the west. The building at this point may have had extensive interior structural failures that then led to the collapse of the overall building. The cantilever transfer girders along the north elevation, the strong diaphragms at the 5th and 7th floors, and the seat connections between the beams and columns at the building perimeter may have become overloaded after the collapse of the transfer trusses and caused the interior collapse to propagate to the whole floor and to the exterior frame. The structural system between floors 5 and 7 appears to be critical to the structural performance of the entire building.

(Yes I note some buzz words and note the "limited debris field")


I also believe FEMA mentioned "TOTAL diesel fuel" under 5.7.
Clearly FEMA regards the further investigation of diesel important. See 5.8
 
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towers.jpg


I think somebody made a little error about where the towers and the other burning buildings were.
 
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