Fight Science! Did anyone watch this?

[Kevin_Lowe]

Non sequitur.

For one thing most of the people I've come across who enjoy recreational violence tend to lack the discipline to stick with MA, and that includes boxing etc. I'm not going to debate the difference between a planned bout, however free the rules, and ad-hoc violence because you and Ken hold a dogmatic position and any suggestion that there may be any difference between a pre-planned event and jumped out the blue by an inadequate who gets off on violence is anathema. I was merely expressing my amusement.
And thanks, but I trained in boxing at uni and have the rebuilt nose to prove it.

Like Ken said, the human body works pretty much the same way in both cases. But if you have evidence something else works better than MMA, other than Stimpy's wistful theorising that surely something must work better "on the street" than MMA even if he doesn't know what it might be, please present that evidence.

And there's a big focus on grappling and hitting with a more open hand leaves your hand more ready to grab? Plus grapplers tend to hold their arms a little further out than boxers so they're not quite so lined up to throw a straight jab? And the less padding you have on your hand the less you want to hit the hard bones of the face?
Pure speculation as it's a long time since I watched a pro MMA bout.

No, people still punch to the head with the closed fist because it's what works. So it's not the lack of padding or having the hands open.

Specialist grapplers to sometimes have an extended guard, but the hitty people seem to use a guard that looks just like the boxing one, with the hands held high and close. So that's not it either.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Kevin,

Similarly, I do not expect you to just take my word for it when I say that I have seen techniques like joint locks work in unarmed combat. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I only even mentioned it because you seemed to be wondering why I think they are worth training, and why I think that techniques which MMA competitors don't find useful can still be useful.

Was it an accident that you moved from "wrist lock" to "joint lock"? Joint locks work in MMA.

Not really. Wrist locks are just a type of joint lock, and in my experience, are not the most difficult of the joint locks to make work.

Note again that my contesting your claim that anything that MMA competitors don't find useful, is useless in general, does not in any way require me to present counter examples. You need to present evidence that actually supports your claim. And evidence that MMA techniques really work, is not sufficient.

In that case UFO non-believers need to disprove every UFO sighting, or UFOs are alien spacecraft.

If they want to claim that UFO's don't exist (as opposed to the stating that they have not seen compelling evidence that they do exist), then they need to present evidence supporting that claim. This evidence need not take the form of debunking every UFO sighting. After all, even if there were no UFO sightings, the claiment would still have to provide some sort of evidence for the claim that UFO's don't exist, even if it is just the argument that if they did exist, there would be sightings.

Absense of evidence can be evidence of absense, but that doesn't mean it always is. It depends on the situation, and what sort of evidence you would expect there to be if it wasn't absent.

Consider this. Imagine for arguments sake that, for example, wrist locks do have a number of real fighting situations which they reliably work, and are even the optimal solution. If this were the case, what sort of video evidence would you [/i]expect[/i] there to be? I honestly can't think of any video examples I have ever seen of trained martial artists defending themselves from real attackes in a non-competition setting, so when would we ever get the opportunity to have video footage of people successfully using techniques which are not optimal for competition?

Judo = full contact sport.
Brazilian Jiujitsu = full contact sport
Japanese jujitsu = pretend.

By the ranks involved I'm going to take a wild guess and say I think the people you train with are Japanese jujitsu people. Am I right?

Yup. But you seem to be completely unaware that some Japanese Jujitsu styles also incorporate full contact training.

Go to a judo class. JJJ people will try to tell you they are the same. They are not. Go to a judo class.

At the European Gasshuku, which I attended a couple of weeks ago, one of the instructors was a Judo instructor. Sensei Baptiste Rinsant. He does not appear to share this low opinion of Japanese Jujitsu, but then, that is just one person.

As for your example of throws that don't hurt people who don't know how to fall, it does not seem like much of a leap to me to assume that this was done at slow speed, with little or no resistence on their part, and most likely on mats.

Slow speed, no. Less than full resistance, no. Mats, yes.

If I state a personal anecdote it was from full-contact grappling, I'm not going to waste your time with pretend stuff.

Well, suffice it to say that I am at least as skeptical about the claim that you can safely throw a resisting person attacking at full speed who has no experience falling, as you are of things like wrist-locks and limb-destruction.

I'll ask one of my instructors next time I see her. She is a 5th dan in Jujitsu (and yes, she has done full contact sparring). Incidentally, I discussed this discussion with her last Sunday, and she seemed to agree with me. Not that this should convince you of anything...

Did I say "Ask a non-contact grappler?". Japanese jujitsu people can't fight. Go to a judo class.

Did I? I just told you she does full-contact sparring. You may not believe that this is a part of some Japanese Jujitsu training, but that does not change the fact that it is.

Perhaps this is where your impression of TMA comes from? You seem to be completely unaware that there are a large number of traditional martial arts schools which do incorporate full-contact training as an important part of their systems.


Dr. Stupid

 

[thaiboxerken]

When you say "large number", do you mean a majority or just a large minority? From my experience of visiting many, many TMA dojos, I would guess that it certainly has to be a small minority. So small that I have yet to encounter one.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Ken,

When you say "large number", do you mean a majority or just a large minority? From my experience of visiting many, many TMA dojos, I would guess that it certainly has to be a small minority. So small that I have yet to encounter one.

I have no idea what the percentage is, or how it varies with location and/or the type of style. I have never had any problem finding them, but then, I don't just go around randomly looking at dojos either. Most of my connections to martial arts groups have been through people who are primarily interested in sparring and contact training. Not surprisingly, once you find one finding others is not difficult, because that is the type of people they will tend to associate with.

For example, most of my Jujitsu contacts are through people doing Inayan Escrima. Since Inayan is a system which puts a strong emphasis on sparring and contact training, it should come as no surprise that the Jujitsu people (and practitioners of other styles) that they tend to associate with are those with similar interests.

That said, it is my impression that they tend to be a minority. For example, at the European Gasshuku I mentioned before, I was discussing with a practitioner of Jujitsu who holds much the same view we do about the importance of contact training, and the unrealistic nature of the fantasy that one can learn to fight by just practicing techniques, katas, drills, and so forth. I don't want to go into too much detail, but the discussion was basically about some Kung Fu schools that he and his Sensai had visited. A comment was made along the lines of "One of these days we're going to find a Kung Fu school that isn't complete garbage".

I'm afraid that the vast majority of dojos are probably just crap. Somewhere along the line the view of the common public became that a black belt is an expert in their style, so any yahoo with a black belt can open his own school and pretend to be an expert. As a result, even people who did train at a school where contact training is considered important, can go an open their own dojo, claiming to be proficient in that style, even though they never got far enough to do any significant sparring or contact training themselves. Add onto this the fact that most people who practice martial arts don't want to do anything that close to real fighting, and it becomes pretty obvious what the problem is. People aren't going to do something hard when there are plenty of teachers who tell them that they can accomplish their goals more easily.


Dr. Stupid

 

[T'ai Chi]

There is ample evidence that MMA techniques work.

Of course, since MMA is just a combination of TMA and TMA techniques work.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I'm not sure what you mean by "different types of fighting conditions",

A real self defense situation is unplanned, unprovoked, with no guarantees on weapons, safety, time limit, outcome, etc.

A sport/competition event is the exact opposite.

Check out http://www.statisticool.com/fights.htm

 

[T'ai Chi]

Im trying to find any example of a tackle first guy against multiple opponents

The closest thing I could find is Mike Valelly on youtube vs a bunch of weenie idiots. But he punches a lot and only tackles once later. And he also will tell you he just took a tiny bit of TMA when he was little, nothing else

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xPXeWCClEBQ&mode=related&search=

edit:

OOops, TMA I meant, kenpo

I personally would only include unprovoked attacks as evidence. Chest-beating high-school playground ego macho stuff is something else entirely.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Japanese jujitsu people can't fight.

What exactly is your evidence for such a sweeping belief statement?

Do you mean that people taking Japanese jujitsu generally don't care to participate in MMA sports/entertainment? I'd agree there. They're probably more rational and focused on training for real life self defense situations to care about ring girls, shiny pro-rasslin' belts, being macho, hawking supplements, and encouraging young males to be more aggressive.

But are you really saying that, for example, pre-Judo in Japan that no jujitsu practicioner anywhere was capable of defending him/herself? Really?

 

[T'ai Chi]

I'm still interested to see how TMAhater comments apply when the TMA being discussed uses weapons.

Suddenly the TMAer sword cuts aren't effective because since they are practiced in kata and not really full contact?

I'm also curious to know if TMAhaters would care to comment on if Muay Thai and wrestling are TMA, and if so, if they are then considered highly ineffective.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I think most people doing Muay Thai in the US are not aware of the dance rituals that they do before matches in Thailand and all the good luck charms they wear.

It is just that people practicing it want to pretend that stuff doesn't exist in their effective martial art.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Not really. Wrist locks are just a type of joint lock, and in my experience, are not the most difficult of the joint locks to make work.

Contrariwise, in my limited experience they're probably the least seen in grappling competitions except for hip locks.

Consider this. Imagine for arguments sake that, for example, wrist locks do have a number of real fighting situations which they reliably work, and are even the optimal solution. If this were the case, what sort of video evidence would you [/i]expect[/i] there to be? I honestly can't think of any video examples I have ever seen of trained martial artists defending themselves from real attackes in a non-competition setting, so when would we ever get the opportunity to have video footage of people successfully using techniques which are not optimal for competition?

That's why I kept asking you for show us the basis for your belief in the effectiveness of wrist locks. I didn't think it very likely you had any video, but of course I would have been very interested if you did.

Yup. But you seem to be completely unaware that some Japanese Jujitsu styles also incorporate full contact training.

News to me. Who, when and where?

At the European Gasshuku, which I attended a couple of weeks ago, one of the instructors was a Judo instructor. Sensei Baptiste Rinsant. He does not appear to share this low opinion of Japanese Jujitsu, but then, that is just one person.

Some judo instructors teach jujitsu too. I don't expect them to tell uncomfortable truths about their cash cow. If those people can fight, they can fight because of the judo.

They might not realise it though. A surprising number of judoka think judo is no use in a real fight.

Well, suffice it to say that I am at least as skeptical about the claim that you can safely throw a resisting person attacking at full speed who has no experience falling, as you are of things like wrist-locks and limb-destruction.

Overhook an arm, grab their lapel, flip them over your hip. Since you have a very firm hold on their upper body, you can let them down very easily and maintain very good control of their near arm to boot. Near-side armbar from knee ride ensues. Or use a whizzer which gives you nice tight control of their shoulder allowing you to mitigate their impact equally well, doesn't require clothing to work, and sets up a beautiful spinning armbar on the not-yet-clued.

If that might as well be Ancient Greek, just trust me that it's doable by part-timers like myself and sets up fight-ending limb locks to boot. Don't take my word for it though, go to that judo class and tell them you are skeptical about whether it can be done.

Did I? I just told you she does full-contact sparring. You may not believe that this is a part of some Japanese Jujitsu training, but that does not change the fact that it is.

Perhaps this is where your impression of TMA comes from? You seem to be completely unaware that there are a large number of traditional martial arts schools which do incorporate full-contact training as an important part of their systems.

You may have noted that I avoid the term TMA as much as possible when referring to styles that suck. I refer to them as "non-full-contact". Many people unfortunately do use "TMA" to mean "non-full-contact"/"styles that suck", but doing so gives people like Tai Chi plenty of opportunity to derail discussions by pointing out that not all TMAs suck and not all non-traditional arts are good.

Personally I think whether an art is "traditional" or not is of purely historical interest.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Kevin,

Not really. Wrist locks are just a type of joint lock, and in my experience, are not the most difficult of the joint locks to make work.

Contrariwise, in my limited experience they're probably the least seen in grappling competitions except for hip locks.

Again, this does not surprise me in the least, given that they are also the easiest to counter or reverse.

Yup. But you seem to be completely unaware that some Japanese Jujitsu styles also incorporate full contact training.

News to me. Who, when and where?

Well, as one example:
http://www.kilohana.co.uk/kodenkan.htm

The people I know who train this style seem to regard sparring and full-contact training as an important aspect of their art. The ones I have spoken to seem to hold the same disdain for styles which ignore this crucial aspect of training that we do.

At the European Gasshuku, which I attended a couple of weeks ago, one of the instructors was a Judo instructor. Sensei Baptiste Rinsant. He does not appear to share this low opinion of Japanese Jujitsu, but then, that is just one person.

Some judo instructors teach jujitsu too. I don't expect them to tell uncomfortable truths about their cash cow.

To the best of my knowledge, he does not. My understanding is that he is a highly respected Judo competitor.

Well, suffice it to say that I am at least as skeptical about the claim that you can safely throw a resisting person attacking at full speed who has no experience falling, as you are of things like wrist-locks and limb-destruction.

Overhook an arm, grab their lapel, flip them over your hip. Since you have a very firm hold on their upper body, you can let them down very easily and maintain very good control of their near arm to boot. Near-side armbar from knee ride ensues. Or use a whizzer which gives you nice tight control of their shoulder allowing you to mitigate their impact equally well, doesn't require clothing to work, and sets up a beautiful spinning armbar on the not-yet-clued.

Nice theory, but if the speed is not fast enough for them to be hurt when they hit the ground, what is to prevent them from simply regaining their balance? Or wiping off your holding hand?

Without a joint lock, your only resource for maintaining control during the course of the throw is brute force. For a fast throw, this doesn't matter, but if it is fast, they will get hurt when they hit the ground.

If that might as well be Ancient Greek, just trust me that it's doable by part-timers like myself and sets up fight-ending limb locks to boot. Don't take my word for it though, go to that judo class and tell them you are skeptical about whether it can be done.

I have repeatedly done exactly what you describe in semi-contact sparring myself, and had it done to me. Again, if the speed is slow enough to avoid injury, there is nothing to prevent the target from simply aborting the throw. Nor do they have to be a trained martial artist to do so. They just need to have good reflexes and balance.

I should mention that this is an issue I have some significant experience in. We don't train on mats, but we do take downs all the time. As a result, when we do semi-contact sparring, most of the takedowns we do are controlled. The ones based on joint-locks work quite well. The ones which are just slow versions of balance and leverage based take downs, are easily aborted.

You may have noted that I avoid the term TMA as much as possible when referring to styles that suck. I refer to them as "non-full-contact". Many people unfortunately do use "TMA" to mean "non-full-contact"/"styles that suck", but doing so gives people like Tai Chi plenty of opportunity to derail discussions by pointing out that not all TMAs suck and not all non-traditional arts are good.

Personally I think whether an art is "traditional" or not is of purely historical interest.

Well then, on this point at least we are in agreement. But I don't see how this relates to the point I just made. Are you now saying that when you said "Japanese jujitsu people can't fight", you really mean "Japanese jujitsu people who don't do full contact training, can't fight."?


Dr. Stupid

 

[T'ai Chi]

You may have noted that I avoid the term TMA as much as possible when referring to styles that suck.
..
Many people unfortunately do use "TMA" to mean "non-full-contact"/"styles that suck", but doing so gives ...

You just contradicted yourself here.

 

[T'ai Chi]

If you train MMA you'll start to lose brain cells, which is evidenced by claims of MMA fanboys that Japanese jujitsu people can't fight.

As if the history of Japan is filled with a bunch of non-fighters.

 

[CFLarsen]

As if the history of Japan is filled with a bunch of non-fighters.

Which history is not?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Again, this does not surprise me in the least, given that they are also the easiest to counter or reverse.

I'm going to stop chasing you around on this point. You can make vague remarks like "wrist locks aren't the hardest locks to get" and "they are also the easiest to counter or reverse" all day but it's just your opinion. It's not evidence.

Well, as one example:
http://www.kilohana.co.uk/kodenkan.htm

The people I know who train this style seem to regard sparring and full-contact training as an important aspect of their art. The ones I have spoken to seem to hold the same disdain for styles which ignore this crucial aspect of training that we do.

Unfortunately that site is fairly sketchy and gives us no real info about how they train, or what they train.

Nice theory, but if the speed is not fast enough for them to be hurt when they hit the ground, what is to prevent them from simply regaining their balance? Or wiping off your holding hand?

The initial entry and lift or twist is done hard and fast, obviously, or it doesn't work at all on anyone. You mitigate their speed once they have begun to fall, and thus are already on a one-way trip to their back.

Without a joint lock, your only resource for maintaining control during the course of the throw is brute force. For a fast throw, this doesn't matter, but if it is fast, they will get hurt when they hit the ground.

I have repeatedly done exactly what you describe in semi-contact sparring myself, and had it done to me. Again, if the speed is slow enough to avoid injury, there is nothing to prevent the target from simply aborting the throw. Nor do they have to be a trained martial artist to do so. They just need to have good reflexes and balance.

Pure crap. I do it to people who have done a lot more full-contact grappling than you have, and they end up on the ground with my knee on their solar plexus.

I should mention that this is an issue I have some significant experience in. We don't train on mats, but we do take downs all the time. As a result, when we do semi-contact sparring, most of the takedowns we do are controlled. The ones based on joint-locks work quite well. The ones which are just slow versions of balance and leverage based take downs, are easily aborted.

No kidding. That's why semi-contact sparring is worthless. Things work that shouldn't and don't work that should. You and the people you train with can't do those throws because you've never trained them properly.

Well then, on this point at least we are in agreement. But I don't see how this relates to the point I just made. Are you now saying that when you said "Japanese jujitsu people can't fight", you really mean "Japanese jujitsu people who don't do full contact training, can't fight."?

I mean I have never yet run into a JJJ school that trains full contact, nor heard of any major school of JJJ that does so in the way that, for example, kyokushinkai karate does. If I did see something that purported to be such a beast I would want to poke it to see whether it was a branch of JJJ in the strict sense or whether it was an MMAesque hybrid style calling itself jujitsu.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

It looks like this thread dedicated to a specific topic has turned into a pissing and insult contest among people who absolutely know nothing about the topic of which they are debating.

Tis the outcome of many JREF threads.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Nice theory, but if the speed is not fast enough for them to be hurt when they hit the ground, what is to prevent them from simply regaining their balance? Or wiping off your holding hand?

It's something called physics. One you have taken their balance, they can't regain it if you have a proper hold. You are basically cushioning their fall, if they "wiped" your hands off, they'd only fall faster. Also, wiping hands of isn't very easy if a person has a good hold of your clothing. It's hard to "wipe" off an underhook or over hook as well, especially in mid-flight.

Also, in Judo, they are taught to land a person onto their back so as to avoid injury as much as possible, even at full speed on the most ignorant of fallers.

Without a joint lock, your only resource for maintaining control during the course of the throw is brute force.

No, balance and leverage play a huge factor.

For a fast throw, this doesn't matter, but if it is fast, they will get hurt when they hit the ground.

I don't agree at all. There are many fast throws that place a person on the ground without slamming them, they are done in basic high-school wrestling all of the time, and they are done on beginner kids from day one.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Kevin,

I'm going to stop chasing you around on this point. You can make vague remarks like "wrist locks aren't the hardest locks to get" and "they are also the easiest to counter or reverse" all day but it's just your opinion. It's not evidence.

Oddly enough, I never claimed otherwise. Liekwise your assertions that "Japanese Jujitsue people can't fight", and that anything which you don't see in MMA competitions is useless, is just your opinion, not evidence.

Unfortunately that site is fairly sketchy and gives us no real info about how they train, or what they train.

I did not present it as evidence for anything. I gave it as an example of people who do what you claim nobody does. If you are interested, then contact them. If not, then don't.

Nice theory, but if the speed is not fast enough for them to be hurt when they hit the ground, what is to prevent them from simply regaining their balance? Or wiping off your holding hand?

The initial entry and lift or twist is done hard and fast, obviously, or it doesn't work at all on anyone. You mitigate their speed once they have begun to fall, and thus are already on a one-way trip to their back.

So let me get this straight. You break their balance and start them falling very quickly, and then before they can hit the ground and hurt themselves, you slow them down, without at the same time giving them an opportunity to regain their balance? How? Where does the force stopping their momentum come from? And now that they are moving slowing, again, what prevents them from wiping your hand and/or changing their footing? In the absense of a lock or brute force, it is only speed which prevents somebody from doing this. What do you do, if not using a lock or brute force, to prevent them from doing that once you have slowed them down?

I have repeatedly done exactly what you describe in semi-contact sparring myself, and had it done to me. Again, if the speed is slow enough to avoid injury, there is nothing to prevent the target from simply aborting the throw. Nor do they have to be a trained martial artist to do so. They just need to have good reflexes and balance.

Pure crap. I do it to people who have done a lot more full-contact grappling than you have, and they end up on the ground with my knee on their solar plexus.

Again, I am extremely skeptical of this claim. My suspicion is that you are just vastly underestimating how hard they hit the mat, which is easy to do when you train on mats.

I should mention that this is an issue I have some significant experience in. We don't train on mats, but we do take downs all the time. As a result, when we do semi-contact sparring, most of the takedowns we do are controlled. The ones based on joint-locks work quite well. The ones which are just slow versions of balance and leverage based take downs, are easily aborted.

No kidding. That's why semi-contact sparring is worthless. Things work that shouldn't and don't work that should. You and the people you train with can't do those throws because you've never trained them properly.

You are jumping to conclusions again. Many of the people I train with have done full contact training, as I already told you. Anyway, that just verifies my point. When you do the throw slowly (even if it is only the end part which is slow), and aren't doing it with either a lock or or brute force to control the person, you essentially are doing it in a semi-contact way. You are doing what somebody would do if they were sparring semi-contact.

Well then, on this point at least we are in agreement. But I don't see how this relates to the point I just made. Are you now saying that when you said "Japanese jujitsu people can't fight", you really mean "Japanese jujitsu people who don't do full contact training, can't fight."?

I mean I have never yet run into a JJJ school that trains full contact, nor heard of any major school of JJJ that does so in the way that, for example, kyokushinkai karate does. If I did see something that purported to be such a beast I would want to poke it to see whether it was a branch of JJJ in the strict sense or whether it was an MMAesque hybrid style calling itself jujitsu.

That is why I pointed it out to you. By all means, feel free to poke them. I understand they like that sort of thing. From what they have told me, they do quite a bit of "poking" themselves.


Ken,

Nice theory, but if the speed is not fast enough for them to be hurt when they hit the ground, what is to prevent them from simply regaining their balance? Or wiping off your holding hand?

It's something called physics. One you have taken their balance, they can't regain it if you have a proper hold.

Exactly. But what constitutes a "proper hold". What makes it "proper"? A joint lock allows you to prevent them from regaining their balance, as does simply having a really strong and secure hold on them, but again, the latter is very dependant on strength and size.

You are basically cushioning their fall, if they "wiped" your hands off, they'd only fall faster.

If they are not already moving fast, then wiping you hands off means that they can regain their balance, because you are no longer controlling them. The only way this would fail to work would be if they do not have time to regain their balance after wiping, which means that are already falling quickly, and are going to get hurt when they hit the pavement.

Also, wiping hands of isn't very easy if a person has a good hold of your clothing. It's hard to "wipe" off an underhook or over hook as well, especially in mid-flight.

And yet people, even unskilled people, do it all the time.

Also, in Judo, they are taught to land a person onto their back so as to avoid injury as much as possible, even at full speed on the most ignorant of fallers.

Yeah, that will really save you when you are hitting concrete. Sure.

Without a joint lock, your only resource for maintaining control during the course of the throw is brute force.

No, balance and leverage play a huge factor.

I already addressed this. You have to keep them off balance. You have to maintain your leverage. That's the whole point of using a joint lock for control.

For a fast throw, this doesn't matter, but if it is fast, they will get hurt when they hit the ground.

I don't agree at all. There are many fast throws that place a person on the ground without slamming them, they are done in basic high-school wrestling all of the time, and they are done on beginner kids from day one.

And they are done after teaching basic falls to the students, and they are done on mats.


A quick question to both Ken and Kevin. Do either of you think that this controlled throw of yours could be executed safely by somebody who is significantly smaller than the person being thrown? Could a 160lb man throw me (240lbs) in this way without me either easily regaining my balance, or hitting the ground fast and hard? You guys talk about things like the throwee not being able to break your grip, or being controled securely without a joint lock during the course of the fall, and even about somehow slowing the person's fall down from something initially very fast to something much slower. Don't you even recognize that what you are talking about here is relying on brute strength?


Dr. Stupid

 

[thaiboxerken]

Ken,


Exactly. But what constitutes a "proper hold". What makes it "proper"? A joint lock allows you to prevent them from regaining their balance, as does simply having a really strong and secure hold on them, but again, the latter is very dependant on strength and size.

No, a joint lock is not necessary, neither is a large amount of strength or size. There are plenty of "proper" holds used to both throw and slow down the impact of a person. WHat prevents them from regaining balance is the lack of footing.

If they are not already moving fast, then wiping you hands off means that they can regain their balance, because you are no longer controlling them.

How the crap are they gonna "wipe" off an underhook, overhook or a bear hug?

The only way this would fail to work would be if they do not have time to regain their balance after wiping, which means that are already falling quickly, and are going to get hurt when they hit the pavement.

That's just wrong. If they manage to undo the hold, they end up falling faster. Hold someone upside down, then let go of the ankles and see how well they regain balance.

And yet people, even unskilled people, do it all the time.

No, they don't.

Yeah, that will really save you when you are hitting concrete. Sure.

Yes, it can.

I already addressed this. You have to keep them off balance. You have to maintain your leverage. That's the whole point of using a joint lock for control.

Joint locks are not the only leverage tool in a grappling arsenal.

And they are done after teaching basic falls to the students, and they are done on mats.

Not always. The mat also only helps to prevent cuts and bruises. Severe injury can be done if a person is slammed onto a mat.

A quick question to both Ken and Kevin. Do either of you think that this controlled throw of yours could be executed safely by somebody who is significantly smaller than the person being thrown?

Yes, it's done all of the time.

Could a 160lb man throw me (240lbs) in this way without me either easily regaining my balance, or hitting the ground fast and hard?

Yes.

You guys talk about things like the throwee not being able to break your grip, or being controled securely without a joint lock during the course of the fall, and even about somehow slowing the person's fall down from something initially very fast to something much slower. Don't you even recognize that what you are talking about here is relying on brute strength?

It's not about brute strength at all. It's about leverage.