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Looking for challenge

webfusion said:
Hyparxis suggests:

It is for sure not the JREF or Randi saying anything about public humiliation. You are confusing the brash tone and strident postings of The Atheist, (who has invented the un-verified 'EA Challenge' in New Zealand, out of thin air) with the proper, authoritative, investigative and 'good sportsmanlike approach of the JREF and James Randi.

I agree with you that IF Christopher were to encounter the attitude which you hypothesize in your statement above, he may have a good reason to seek another venue. I agree with you that IF Jeff Wagg drifted away from the civil speech and into the realm of the type of speech characterized here by The Atheist, then your suggestion to Chris (or anyone) to ignore the JREF Challenge would perhaps have merit.

However, none of that is in evidence, and the JREF does indeed say:
"We deal an objective hand" --- there is nothing sensationalized about what the JREF does, and in stark contrast to the hyperhumiliatory attitude of The Atheist, I see James Randi taking a cool, calm and level-headed attitude towards all who Apply.

In all the years I have seen James Randi in his various public appearances (primarily on television, going back to when I first noticed his efforts on the TONIGHT SHOW with Johnny Carson), he has been absolutely polite, absolutely fair, and absolutely the epitome of good sportsmanship.

It is why I have nothing but the utmost respect for the man and his mission, and why I am particularly upset with The Atheist for 'emulating' the JREF Challenge and coming here with this 'alternative' way of doing business ----- And exactly why I am now placing The Athiest on 'ignore' ------

Which, as T.A. has said, is fine with him: "No worries"
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In context I wasn't saying at all that the JREF is any less than fair and even handed. The word is "if". If they were to use the language of some of our zealous forum members, it would be counter productive. But they don't.
Sure, James Randi is a little irascable at times in the Commenatries, but I agree he conducts his affairs as a gentleman.

I still though feel the so-called paranormal topic of this thread needs a different venue. Or if it's to be brought to the Challenge, Chris needs to do some more practice on a varieity of different circumstances causing scoliosis to narrow down what degree of effect can be expected to be reapeatble.
But I wish Chris good luck. I'm confident that he can demonstrate changes in spinal curvature with his technique. But I see a sticky-wicket over the how much an alteration would be considered a demostration of something "paranormal."
 
Christopher Pille said:
I have stated that I am not the only one who can do what I claim to do.
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That doesn't sound at all plausible.
Because surely if more than one person could straighten up scoliotic spines with a magic touch, we would see it on tv or in the newspapers, or even perhaps in the odd medical journal.

Come to think of it, I did not hear about the Nobel Prize at all!
Perhaps you (and all of the others who can do it) are waiting for some obscure reason, before stunning the world with your wonderous cure.

Good lard, this does not add up at all.
 
Hypraxis --- your contribution here has been an absolute positive. I misread what you were saying to Christopher that he "seek another venue, one that is investigatory in nature rather than a consumer alert." and your latest clarification is understood.


since you mentioned that there could be an issue with: "how much an (angle of) alteration would be considered a demostration of something "paranormal."

Here is what Christopher says on the subject (and at this point, I'm going to paraphrase his words in the claim letter) :

A noticeable reduction in the degree of lateral curvature will be considered a positive result...for exact measurement, a qualified independent observer should measure using the standard Cobb angle.

(notice that no specific degree is specified)

This is, as you clearly indicate, insufficiently precise, is that correct?
 
webfusion said:
A noticeable reduction in the degree of lateral curvature will be considered a positive result...for exact measurement, a qualified independent observer should measure using the standard Cobb angle.

(notice that no specific degree is specified)

This is, as you clearly indicate, insufficiently precise, is that correct?
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A massage therapist using Deep Tissue techniques (a physical manipulation of muscle and connective tissue) can effect measurable changes in the degree of spinal curvature and many more instances where muscle is pulling on bones to such a degree that it affects posture. It's typical for a person to get up off the massage table after a Deep Tissue Massage session on the back with a straighter back and improved posture. This even happens in common garden variety Swedish Massage sessions. As I described in an earlier post, when the connective tissue, the fascia, the sheath of the muscles, is softened, and muscle contractions are relaxed, the bones that were being tugged upon in an unusual way resume to whatever degree possible normal angles. This is all ordinary physiology. And knowing that, I have a tendency to expect something more extraordinary from Chris.

Now what Chris proposes to do that's extraordinary is to effect the same kind oif alteration in bone allighnments with just a light touch involving the use of "energy." I'm pretty sure I know precisely the technique he uses, but have decided keep mum, so he can do his demonstration. It's not Reiki, but it is a technique of "energy work." And if the JREF accepts that the challenge is for him to correct spinal curvature to any degree by the mere use of light touch with "energy," I think he has a very good chance of winning.
I may have rained on his parade already by asking a more substantial improvement than just a few degrees That's because in my opinion even an "energy work" modality can effect a change, and in ways that can be accounted for without an attempted paranormal explanation. (See previous posts). But this is my bias in that I have an ordinary explanation for the seemingly extraordinary and have experienced this kind of thing so much that it's not extraordinary to me. In my opinion there isn't a paranormal claim here.

However, that's not for me to decide. it's for the JREF to decide if Chris's proposal is a suitible claim.

A noticeable reduction in the degree of lateral curvature will be considered a positive result...for exact measurement, a qualified independent observer should measure using the standard Cobb angle.
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If that's the accepted target, then I encourage Chris to go for it.
If, however, Chris is asked to show a scoliosis cure with his technique, that's going to be a sticky wicket. Dramatic improvments and in some cases permenant cures of scoliosis can happen with a combination of Chris's technique, Physical Therapy and or Yoga, and attitudinal and lifestyle changes. In a few cases where the scoliosis was brought on a by trama from a recent accident that didn't destroy the integrity of the spine, Immediate improvement and recovery can be made with two or three sessions. So if Chris carefully defines his target, he can make a good showing. He can show something the majority of posters here would find unexpected.

I would encourge the JREF to do what they no doubt will, bring in expert input from the fields of Physical Therapy and Massage Therapy and decide based on what those professionals say (not what I, an unliscensed dabbler, say) what would be extraordinary. I expect though they will have different opinions based on their own experiences.

I apologise to Chris if I've muddied the waters of his target demonstration.
Even if the standard winds up being set higher than his domonstration can deliver, the results wll still suggest that there are Massage Therapy approches for musculo-skeletal conditions that can be used in place of and before resorting to invasive and oft times bungling surgery.
 
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Christopher Pille said:
Thanks. I will get my second application notarized tomorrow.

Flange Desire: I don't claim special power. Everyone can learn to do what I do.

I will give all details after I win the Challenge, when you will be more inclined to really listen. :)
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Chris,

Have you confirmed with either Jeff Wagg or James Randi via email that they have, indeed, not received your first application?
 
Gr8wight said:
Chris,

Have you confirmed with either Jeff Wagg or James Randi via email that they have, indeed, not received your first application?
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I emailed Mr. Wagg, cc'ing Mr. Randi, on 10/08 inquiring if my application was received and if it was acceptable. I have not gotten a response. I am acting on what webfusion said Mr. Randi emailed to him on 10/12.
 
Webfusion can confirm that I sent the mail, since I forwarded it to him, and Mr. Wagg can contradict me if he sent a response and I am lying about not receiving one.
 
Today I got a new application notarized by James Lee of Montgomery County, Notary Public of the State of Maryland.

I have sent the application and a self-addressed stamped envelope to the JREF via USPS Express Mail with signature confirmation and online tracking. It has guaranteed delivery by tomorrow at noon.

I have emailed Mr. Wagg, cc'ing Mr. Randi and webfusion, with this information. I have requested confirmation from him when the application is received, and how to proceed.
 
Ok, there's been a lack of rationality so far - mainly thanks to Chris' secretive and silly attitude so far that he can't tell us in case someone beats him to it. I will cheerfully admit that my approach has been at the top of the "non-rational" responses! :D

I am now, however, pretty sure that I have the answer. I was reasonably confident that Chris felt he had a potential con-job on the go here and now I'm even more confident, although that is only part of the story.

Chris has a "technique" which can result in change in spinal curvature, as does Hyparxis - and also his roomie, I believe! Lots of massage therapists can as well. Chris is making such a fuss because he knows that his challenge can never be accepted as an actual challenge. The subject is far too subjective - exactly as it would for a person who claimed to be able to "cure" headaches.

Given the small sample size, lack of double-blinds and subjectivity of the "process" and its results, Chris' chances of getting to an actual challenge are absolute zero. That, I believe is what his goal is - to be turned down by JREF so he can trumpet how he "could have won that gosh-darned million dollars, but the chicken old JREF wouldn't accept the challenge."

Armed with a letter or e mail declining to set up a test is all Chris needs to continue to promulgate his "healing technique" and he believes that a declinal from JREF will greatly enhance his viability. He's probably right, too!
 
The Atheist said:
I am now, however, pretty sure that I have the answer. I was reasonably confident that Chris felt he had a potential con-job on the go here and now I'm even more confident, although that is only part of the story.

Chris has a "technique" which can result in change in spinal curvature, as does Hyparxis - and also his roomie, I believe! Lots of massage therapists can as well. Chris is making such a fuss because he knows that his challenge can never be accepted as an actual challenge. The subject is far too subjective - exactly as it would for a person who claimed to be able to "cure" headaches.

Given the small sample size, lack of double-blinds and subjectivity of the "process" and its results, Chris' chances of getting to an actual challenge are absolute zero.
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There is nothing subjective about a 20+ degree reduction in spinal curvature over a two-hour period. I claim to accomplish such results without any physical manipulation. Not much room for interpretation.

But please explain how you would apply double-blinding to this experiment, and what it would accomplish.
 
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"I would now say to Chris or anyone who believes thay have a clear demonstration of the "unexplained" that they should seek another venue, one that is investigatory in nature rather than a consumer alert. Not that I have any quarrell with the public service the JREF is doing. It's just that it puts the subject in a sensationalized frame."
This is a little pompous. Chris has a challenge. She/he will not state what it is.
Members of this forum are playing the game of "Guess The Question", a "technique" that "skilled" tarot readers rely on. This is obviously more difficult when one cannot see facial or body reactions. Nonetheless, some progress is being made, (& thanks for the warm welcome, guys! Get out there & read those cards).
Chris seems amused, but no more honest. Do you do tarot readings, Chris?
 
Christopher Pille said:
There is nothing subjective about a 20+ degree reduction in spinal curvature over a two-hour period. I claim to accomplish such results without any physical manipulation. Not much room for interpretation.

But please explain how you would apply double-blinding to this experiment, and what it would accomplish.
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My point exactly - you're smart enough to know how the challenge works, yet you aren't smart enough to figure that out? Bzzzzzzz.

Sorry - wrong answer.

YOU come in proposing a challenge based on a ridiculous premise (when you finally let on what it is!), YOU come up with a means of verification. I stick by my comment, you have no intention of making a challenge and are solely looking to be declined, as you know you must. I have a couple of real estate sales jobs still available, though!
 
How about this, Chris? We all have energy at our control with which we can bend people at over 20% sideways or upwards without touching them. Perhaps you're worried that terrorists might develop the technique?
 
Yes. I will relay this concern to President Bush when AmyWilson and I meet him for tea later. I would stay to rebut The Atheist, but I am about to astral project. See you guys later.
 
The Atheist said:
...
Given the small sample size, lack of double-blinds and subjectivity of the "process" and its results, Chris' chances of getting to an actual challenge are absolute zero.
...
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The Atheist, how would you account for proper double-blinding in Mr. Pille's test? Why would it be necessary?
 
Unsure if he refers to my first or second application, but for what it's worth:

Mr. Pille, I have received your application and will process it soon. Everything appears to be in order.

Jeff Wagg
JREF
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Edit: He has my first application.
 
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Can we have any more guesses, or do you have to reveal your claim now?
 
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