Organic Vs Non-Organic Milk

[YoPopa]

They obviously mean it as "You'll need never become ill due to any health risks of milk", not "Drink our milk it's the elixer of health".

Maybe they should have said that if that was what they meant. I quoted them accurately but incompletely. The link is there so you can read the whole thing. If you read it and still don't think that they have hyperbolized in a dangerously misleading way please explain further.

 

[YoPopa]

Raw milk has nothing to do with the context of this thread. The topic of this thread is a biased agribusiness-funded site trying to invalidate why organic milk (which is becoming increasingly popular) is superior to milk often produced in a mechanized, un-natural and in many cases unethical enviornment, while completely ignoring the quality benefits of milk not produced in this way.

Excuuuuse me. So the fact that I referenced a story about raw organic milk instead of just organic milk means that my point was off topic? Why did you even bother to reply?

 

[Beerina]

I find Organic milk does taste better. Most likely from the lack of hormones and antibotics in the product. I never thought it was "healthier" than factory farmed milk.

I'd love to see a double-blind test of this. My son won't dring chocolate milk anymore because "it has so much blood in it they can't sell it as normal white milk." This is a kid who loves a very rare steak.

 

[kittynh]

didn't read the whole thread. But raw milk is the big deal here. The local farm sells it. I'm like, "are you crazy?"

You have to sign a bunch of papers and you have to sterilize your own bottles and bring them in - you place an order for say 3 gallons a week. I've done volunteer work at this farm, and even the dairy dudes don't drink raw milk.

 

[dogbite666]

Lotus and Maserati aren't a fraction as rich as GM or Ford. That doesn't mean GM or Ford couldn't make a high-quality product if they wanted (like Toyota), but it's not the type of company they are.

Lotus and Maserati might not have as big a GP as GM or Ford but profit is just as important. This is not a very good analogy to the organic milk argument.

 

[ponderingturtle]

didn't read the whole thread. But raw milk is the big deal here. The local farm sells it. I'm like, "are you crazy?"

You have to sign a bunch of papers and you have to sterilize your own bottles and bring them in - you place an order for say 3 gallons a week. I've done volunteer work at this farm, and even the dairy dudes don't drink raw milk.

I more or less agree with that assessment, of course the goverment would have all kinds of issues with how I eat, I eat runny eggs(I know taking my life in my own hands like that shocking)

 

[SirPhilip]

Lotus and Maserati might not have as big a GP as GM or Ford but profit is just as important. This is not a very good analogy to the organic milk argument.

Yes it is, because like large automakers, very large scale milk producers (such as those products you will find at WallMart stores and generic supermaket brands) make cost-effective compromises to sell their products at such a low price.

 

[SirPhilip]

I'd love to see a double-blind test of this. My son won't dring chocolate milk anymore because "it has so much blood in it they can't sell it as normal white milk." This is a kid who loves a very rare steak.

Well, if you want to make comparisons with some excellent organic brands, I'd first suggest letting him try Promised Land chocolate milk. For regular and 2%, Stonyfield Farm, and Organic Valley are the top-shelf true organic brands, with Parmalat organic (comes in shelf-stable boxes in the food isles) being the best-tasting milk in the world (in my opinion anyway). Compare these brands with any others. Personally, the biggest contrast I've noticed has been between these and cheap supermarket brands and Velda Farms, wheres with brands like MacArthur, the differences are subtle.

 

[SirPhilip]

Excuuuuse me.

I'm the king.

So the fact that I referenced a story about raw organic milk instead of just organic milk means that my point was off topic? Why did you even bother to reply?

Well, yes. The topic of this thread was about a misleading agribusiness funded "campaign" against organic farmers. The reasons for not drinking raw milk, however, isn't even up for debate; (although it would be cool if it could be consumed without any risk). The most interesting thing to discuss about raw milk is the taste in comparison to pasteurized milk, which few have experienced.

 

[YoPopa]

I'm the king.

Well, yes. The topic of this thread was about a misleading agribusiness funded "campaign" against organic farmers. The reasons for not drinking raw milk, however, isn't even up for debate; (although it would be cool if it could be consumed without any risk). The most interesting thing to discuss about raw milk is the taste in comparison to pasteurized milk, which few have experienced.

I hope the king finds the key to Lady Philip's iron undies and loosens up a bit. Until then go on and ignore the point that organic farmers can be misleading in their advertising.

 

[exarch]

To counter that antibotics are introduced into the soil pestides are heavily used and run off takes those types of chemicals into our water supply.

I agree with many local farming is the best way to go but factory farming is extremely hard on the soil and bad for the environment. The organic label allows the consumer to at least put money behind there decisions to promote more sustainable farming techniques.

I think there is one good point in favor of smaller "organic" (or not) farms. Back in "ye olden days", farms didn't have the capacity to grow as big as some of todays "industrial" farms. This meant that not only did fields yield less food per acre, but the fields were also smaller than with today's big "industrial" farms. They just didn't have the manpower to run a farm that big, or to take in all the crops on time.

Having, and farming fields right up to the edge of the river for example, means that whatever pollutants are used on the field will find their way into the water much more easily. Leaving a kind of "buffer zone" will at least limit the amount of pollution. Be it from "organic" or "industrial" farming. So while it's possible now to farm that land, it's probably better for the environment if you don't.

I know there's also quite some research being done nowadays towards finding suitable plants and/or animals to place on those "buffer zones" to extract as much of the polluting chemicals from the runoff before it reaches the rivers and streams.

 

[exarch]

I'm referring to genuinely "organic", low-production, traditional farming techniques as opposed to factory farming conditions which are completely intended to maximize production and profit.

The words "abuse" and "misconception" hit home pretty hard visiting a factory farm; take a tour of one sometime.

Sadly though, that's the one thing that's not a difference between organic and non-organic farming. Just like there are small family businesses taking good care of their animals, there are factory sized industrial farms on both the organic and non-organic side. The only difference between organic and non-organic is what you put in (i.e. what the regulations allow you to, so certain chemicals are right out). Other than that, both are essentially the same.

Which is why I said an "ethical farming" label would be more useful, since it wouldn't allow products/manufacturers to make false claims about the presence or non-presence of certain chemicals and linked to that, make unsupported insinuations about their supposed effects on a person's health. An "ethical farming" certificate would finally allow consumers to make a meaningful choice based on farming methods, not a touchy-feely new-age nonsense one like the "organic" label does.

 

[The Don]

§ 205.203 Soil fertility and crop nutrient management practice standard.

(a) The producer must select and implement tillage and cultivation practices that maintain or improve the physical, chemical, and biological condition of soil and minimize soil erosion.

(b) The producer must manage crop nutrients and soil fertility through rotations, cover crops, and the application of plant and animal materials.

(c) The producer must manage plant and animal materials to maintain or improve soil organic matter content in a manner that does not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water by plant nutrients, pathogenic organisms, heavy metals, or residues of prohibited substances. Animal and plant materials include:

My reading of this is that I can choose any combination of methods of approaches in point (b) so i'm not required to rotate, I can use plant and animal materials instead....

 

[exarch]

Well, if you want to make comparisons with some excellent organic brands, I'd first suggest letting him try Promised Land chocolate milk. For regular and 2%, Stonyfield Farm, and Organic Valley are the top-shelf true organic brands, with Parmalat organic (comes in shelf-stable boxes in the food isles) being the best-tasting milk in the world (in my opinion anyway). Compare these brands with any others. Personally, the biggest contrast I've noticed has been between these and cheap supermarket brands and Velda Farms, wheres with brands like MacArthur, the differences are subtle.

I see, so you think that comparing a $40 bottle of wine with a $2 bottle of hangover-hooch is going to make any kind of point at all?
Why not try "any" organic label brands, and compare them to "any" non-organic brands, and find out if there's a difference in taste. This would be more in line with comparing two $15 bottles of wine.

People buying cheap-o supermarket milk aren't out to buy the quality brand favoured by "experts", they are most likely just looking for a pancake ingredient, or something to put in their coffee.

 

[exarch]

My reading of this is that I can choose any combination of methods of approaches in point (b) so i'm not required to rotate, I can use plant and animal materials instead....

I read point (b) as "You must do A through X, Y, and Z"

 

[The Don]

I read point (b) as "You must do A through X, Y, and Z"

I thought that, but if I rotate crops well enough, I may be able to do without adding animal or vegetable stuff

 

[exarch]

I thought that, but if I rotate crops well enough, I may be able to do without adding animal or vegetable stuff

Sure, but in order to get the certificate, you still have to ...

 

[Lothian]

I thought that, but if I rotate crops well enough, I may be able to do without adding animal or vegetable stuff

Don’t think so.

Different crops take different things out of the soil. While some crops do add back certain nutrients to the soil. I don’t think there is a cycle which in totality adds back everything taken out so you need extra or you end up with the pathetic little veg that our allotment gave us this year following our missing out on the manure order.

 

[dogbite666]

The topic of this thread was about a misleading agribusiness funded "campaign" against organic farmers

I don't see how it was misleading. The site was simply voicing concerns about organic milk being marketed as healthier than non organic. There is no 'straw man' there. The fact is organics are percived as being healthier. When judged by their organic certification alone, nothing to do with animal conditions being better than non organic, we see no evidence to suggest that perception.

The people who sell organic milk do so because they want to make money and so they will sell whatever the consumer wants. In many cases the consumer wants organic milk because they believe it to be healthier. Although the organic milk companies might not claim directly that their product is healthier they are guilty of abuse of consumer misconceptions which is wrong.

 

[SirPhilip]

I hope the king finds the key to Lady Philip's iron undies and loosens up a bit. Until then go on and ignore the point that organic farmers can be misleading in their advertising.

Many are misleading, Horizon being a case in point; I must have agreed with that point more than three times in this thread. May I suggest reading carefully before responding?